(Single Card Discussion) Key to GAT in the 5th Dawn? Maybe.

[Ultima]

While we all have discussed serum visions to a large degree, i aim this discussion to a different card of the upcoming set;

Night's Whisper
1B
Sorcery
You draw 2 cards and lose 2 life.

It nets the same amount of cards gush used to without the tempo loss.
Its no gush in raw power but it certainly could give GAT what it needs right now which is a suitable and synergistic draw engine that's cheap.

To the sorcery aspect, i think that's inconsequential because i cast GAT's main drawer in my MP anyway from drain mana usage most of the time.  The life loss is like nothing and Team GRO has been testing and playing scrying in GAT for sometime now to replace TFK(in some cases combine as well) and DA to improve artifact matchs.

Along with visions, i think this card has great potential and could bring GAT to another  level.  It doesn't draw a bizillion cards but that doesn't matter because GAT is more about deck manipulation than advantage.  

What do the rest of you think?

[firebird365]

Forget GAT, this card will break Sui Black wide open!


On a serious note, I think this is a great card. I don't really keep up with 5D previews at MTGNews, so I haven't seen this before, but I'm definately going to toss this into some builds and see how it goes. I never really liked TFK, but I'm not sure if this is strong enough to replace it, maybe just supplement it. It's nice, however, that it's not blue (REB) or targeted (MisD).

[WildWillieWonderboy]

The card could be decent, but AK generally does the same thing w/o life loss and deep anal will tend to draw more cards, which is how you win. I'd say it's worth testing though, as it will probably pump up dryad more quickly.

[Machinus]

This is better than DA because you don't have to get it in the yard, and you lose one less life. I think the elimination of a discard outlet as opposed to being able to cast from the yard is an improvement.

[Matt]

This card is great! Finally, a decent nonblue card drawer.

[MarkPharaoh]

This is better than DA because you don't have to get it in the yard, and you lose one less life. I think the elimination of a discard outlet as opposed to being able to cast from the yard is an improvement.

Not all the time.  DA is better then this with Intuition and when you Drain something big (Force of Will or something) where you hardcast and flashback the DA.  But I have to admit, this card will be bad ass in GAT but probably won't make it's way into many other decks where they play their card drawing differently then GAT.

[Machinus]

Intuition and Mana Drain make DA better, not the other way around. This card is useful independently of what else you are casting. The versatility offered here is more beneficial than the incidental synergies that established powerhouses like mana drain have with a weak 4cc sorcery.

[TutoreIlluminato]

This card is really great, because it gives to black a real draw engine.
It can be used in many decks (from PT-Funk and Suicide to Gat and other multicolored decks).
I think Wizards is printing too many good card drawers in the last sets...if they continue this way we have to test too much

[eddavatar]

As always I ABHOR sorcery. =(

However, this thing is absolutely potentialicious. I would replace TFK with this without a doubt. 2 Mana and digging myself 2 cards deep is a great bargain (no pun intended). The reason I've been staying away from TFK is because of the 3 casting cost. Now that we can pay one less mana for an extra card in hand, sign me up!

However, I would not forsake the AK engine. Both cards should be ran side by side. That way, we can outdraw any deck in the market while growing our precious dryads.

Summarizing, other than the whole sorcery thing (as it should be to make it fair), I love it.

[austinnadz]

I really do think that this is a long needed card. There is skeletal scrying of course, but this is a better scale skeletal scrying. I'm very pleased to see this card coming out. I think it has definite type 1 playability.

[DavidHernandez]

Ed: yeah, the AK engine is still great.  But, this new card is going to be fantastic in GAT.  Like Ultima said, we've been testing Skeletal Scrying to the extent that I had FOUR in my deck at one point.  I went with the notion that I would use it as a replacement for Gush, and only draw 2 cards off it.

Now, I can do the same thing for one less mana.  Too bad it's a sorcery, but I think this is the right card for GAT.

Dave.

[Caelestis]

Eddavatar, it isn't exactly easy to run this side by side with AK when you are already running Serum Visions and all, maybe a two-one (or maybe one-two) configuration not unlike what Hulk does with Deep Anal in the event of AK mirror?

[DavidHernandez]

The AK mirror is exactly what we are trying to avoid by running these other cards.

Dave.

[johnstown713]

I love this card and see it in mulptiple decks, especially for the fact that it is splashable and is not strait black.  It deserves a right in many decks and does have the potential for Tog.  The only thing that pisses me off is that it is a sorcery but I guess if it was an instant it would be to good.  Overall an awsome and playable card.

Johnstown713

[MarkPharaoh]

Intuition and Mana Drain make DA better, not the other way around. This card is useful independently of what else you are casting. The versatility offered here is more beneficial than the incidental synergies that established powerhouses like mana drain have with a weak 4cc sorcery.

Did I ever say DA made Mana Drain and Intuition better? Well, DA does make Intuition better, it makes it a playable card to cast after the first one and it can also be said that Intuition makes DA better by searching and putting in grave so in a sense we were both right and wrong.  

I was simply pointing out that this card isn't the better choice over DA in every deck that runs DA.  I will never cut DA from a deck like Hulk for this card, if anything AK will go first to avode AK mirrors.

[eddavatar]

Dave: AK is a supplement. You are not going to face Tog day in day out. In matches when there are no AK in an opponent's deck, you will most definitely break their back with our unstoppable draw engines. Against tog, well, just don't play AK cantonly.

The deck won't work well enough just off the 4 whispers (or even with serum vision, because they're both sorceries) AK is a very needed component as the instant part of the draw engine against non-tog control, considering now GermBus is getting popular and fish will be ever-existant.

Let me put it this way, against non-AK control, whisper is the supplemental draw because you would try to avoid tapping mana in main phase other than for dryad. But against Tog, AK is supplemental because you don't want to give the opponent the fatter AK.

With both AK and Whisper, we would be a lot less reliant on things like Vamp Tutor and Mystical tutor --> draw. I would personally replace both card-disadvantage tutor with Whisper and try to fit 4 somehow.

Caelestis: Serum Vision and Night's Whisper together would be a mistake because we would have to tap mana in main phase more than we would like to.

MarkPharaoh: We are not talking about Hulk.

[BreathWeapon]

I'm not sure what I think about this card, its great, but I don't know if its better than 4xSkeletal Scrying in GAT. Guess we'll have to see. Man, this card makes me want to retool my B/g Dragon or make a PT Funk style deck ... this card has all sorts of uses.

[Jakedasnake]

This card definitely has a LOT of potential. The AK engine is VERY strong, but the fact is you're going to be playing the small AK's against Tog, and without Intuition, AK is sub-par.

This, however, has a lot of potential. The sorcery issue isn't really a problem, as GAT has an aggressive strategy, using it's counters to protect it's spells. Most of the time, keeping UU open for Mana Drain is irrelevant, as you'd want to use that UU to force a Dryad into play against Control, etc. Running 3-4 of these could definitely add a large boost, that loss of two life really doesn't mean anything.

Strong card, lots of potential.

[Swanky]

Gush was good in GAT because 1.) it was free, and 2.) because in addition to the two cards it drew you, it would net you two additional cards-in-hand in the form of your bounced Islands; your 'Tog would then be the proud recipient of a +6/+6.  Add your other cards in hand, the cards in your graveyard, and a timely Berserk, and suddenly you would have the ability to inspire the purest of humility in an opponent.  I knew Jack Kennedy, and you sir are no Jack Kennedy.

It's a nice card, though.

[drg`]

With Night's Whisper and Serum Visions GAT can radically change into a more efficient Predict based deck.  If you Brainstorm / Vision you can Predict to pump tog +4/+4.  Predict can also be cast on non acceleration draws on turn 3 before the draw step with either Vision or Brainstorm to net you two cards and a counter on Dryad.  Predict + Whisper are both non misdirectable and are online turn 1-3 where as AK takes time to develop if it does at all since most versions don't run Intuitions.  It also isn't a dead or close to dead card in the Hulk matchup.  Between Predict / Whisper / Gush and Ancestral you should have enough draw to give control fits again.  Whisper's and Predict aren't as powerful as Gush but they are certainly passable as a viable card.

// GAT
// 0cc
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
// 1cc
4 Brainstorm
3 Serum Visions
3 Duress
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Ancestral Recall
// 2cc
4 Quirion Dryad
3 Predict
3 Mana Drain
3 Fire / Ice
3 Night's Whisper
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Time Walk
// 3cc
2 Psychatog
2 Cunning Wish
1 Yawgmoth's Will
// 5cc
4 Force of Will
1 Gush
// Land
3 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 Island

[Ultima]

The way I see it, whisper is fine as the main draw engine because most of the time your the aggro player.  I wouldn't pair whisper with AK because playing ak gives the Hulk player a way to win, which I don't think is necassary.

Predict plus Visions seems like an interesting idea, however it seems kind of slow and clunky as your playing a 2-card combo which needs 7-8 slots to be effective and only ends up drawing you two more cards of the same thing, making it very ineffective in theory.

[drg`]

In the testing I have done in Type 1.5 with no Vamp / Mystical / Demonic / Ancestral / Gush to further along the combo it pulls it off more or less consistently.  In Type 1 your far more consistent because of these and the deck benefits further from it.  It's not a two card combo, its more of a benefit for playing both Vision and Brainstorm as it works with either.  It gives you a two turn window on either card to Predict also.  Even if it just cantrips it produces +2.5 +2.5 to a tog which is -.5/-.5 from a non Mox discard Thirst which some people were running.  However most of the time it is +4/+4.  It's worth testing as its more solid than AK which on its own just isn't solid enough without Intuition powering it.  

Test it out, you might be pleasantly surprised.

[Pest]

ALthough they are sorceries, Whispers with Visions is most definately going to be the best way to go once FD becomes legal. The engine is so much cheaper than TFK/DA and the AK Engine, and more efficient in most situations. The only thing I'll really miss is the lack of ability to draw in response to people's spells now. I've come up with the GAT list I will be testing with and most likely playing in tournament once FD comes out. Heres the list I've come up with:

Kill
2 Psychatog
4 Quirion Dryad

Counter/Disrupt
2 MisD
2 Duress
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain

Draw/Search
4 Brainstorm
4 Night's Whisper
2 Serum Visions
3 Cunning Wish
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Gush
1 Ancestral Recall

Broken
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Time Walk

Mana
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Strip Mine
3 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Island
4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta

Sideboard
1 Berserk
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Naturalize
1 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Oxidize
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Smother
2 Stifle
2 Null Rod

It's pretty much the same thing as my normal list just without the TFK/DA engine. I personally think this is more efficient, I'll let you all know the results from my testing whever I can.

[JuJu]

I really like this new Black Card-Drawer. It makes GaT and any decks using black better*. I don't recommend Serum Visions however. I'd rather have 4 night's Whisper and 2 Skeletal Scrying instead. So much better.

*: Suicide can't get better.  :lol:

[xrizzo]

Draw/Search
4 Brainstorm
4 Night's Whisper
2 Serum Visions
3 Cunning Wish
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Gush
1 Ancestral Recall

That is a lot of tutors.  I am not sure that you have enough bombs (Recall, Walk, Yawg) to warrant that many tutors.  You will be cycling through the deck so quickly with all the manipulation (brainstorm, serum visions) that you might not have a use for as much search as you have.  

I think this new black card drawer is good - but the sorcery speed just kills it.  On turn 2, it is commong to have 2 duals, and a mox available.  If I pay 1B on my main phase to draw 2 cards, I can't drain the next turn.  If I were playing scrying, I could wait to see if I need to drain, and if not, scry for 2 instead.  If they play something juicy, I can drain, and scry for like 4-5 the next turn...

Between the two scenarios, I would much rather the flexibility of the scrying...  I liken the scenario to Hymm v. Mind Twist... but just think about how much better mind twist would be if it were instant!

[MarkPharaoh]

MarkPharaoh: We are not talking about Hulk.

Ok, for the last time, I was simply pointing out that this card isn't superior to DA in every way.  I'm not going to start another topic just to talk about this card v.s. DA in Hulk as Hulk and GaT are similiar decks.

[Ultima]

 
I think this new black card drawer is good - but the sorcery speed just kills it.  On turn 2, it is commong to have 2 duals, and a mox available.  If I pay 1B on my main phase to draw 2 cards, I can't drain the next turn.  If I were playing scrying, I could wait to see if I need to drain, and if not, scry for 2 instead.  If they play something juicy, I can drain, and scry for like 4-5 the next turn...

Realistically this not very likely because in the beginning of the game you almost never have any cards in the yard to make this scenario happen.

This spell is a first turn play while scrying is not regardless of much mana you have on the board.  Therefore, I'd rather play with the sorcery than the instant i have to wait for anyway.  Besides its not so bad to wait a turn to play another land while keeping drain up because it still ends up being faster than scrying.

[eddavatar]

This spell is a first turn play while scrying is not regardless of much mana you have on the board.  Therefore, I'd rather play with the sorcery than the instant i have to wait for anyway.  Besides its not so bad to wait a turn to play another land while keeping drain up because it still ends up being faster than scrying.

Exactly why I think depending on whisper and vision as the draw engine is problematic.

We want to gro the dryad, right? Then if we have to keep mana open like that all the time on turn 2, the dryad's potence hugely decreases. Serum vision is not so good if it is rendered a turn 3 play.

AK gives us the option to cantrip at opponent's end of turn 2 (other than the tog matchup, obviously). This alone is enough of a reason for me to run AK/Whisper instead of Whisper/Vision besides the fact that AK draws me more card in the long run.

[DavidHernandez]

AK gives us the option to cantrip at opponent's end of turn 2 (other than the tog matchup, obviously). This alone is enough of a reason for me to run AK/Whisper instead of Whisper/Vision besides the fact that AK draws me more card in the long run.

Ed, this is a very good point and well argued.

For me, the only reason not to run AK is the fact that so many Hulk/GAT decks are being run.  AK is really bad for GAT in the mirror and vs. Hulk. When running TFK or some draw other than AK, I/we find that the Hulk and GAT matchups are much stronger for us.

dave.

[Bulls on Parade]

I really like this new Black Card-Drawer. It makes GaT and any decks using black better*. I don't recommend Serum Visions however. I'd rather have 4 night's Whisper and 2 Skeletal Scrying instead. So much better.

*: Suicide can't get better.  :lol:

Can't Suicide only get better?  

One thing about Night's Whisper is that it absolutely does not net the same amount of cards as Gush did. I'm surprised to see Ultima say that since as far as I know he's one of the more esteemed GAT players. Gush net 3 cards, this nets 1. Sure you might replay those lands via Fastbond back in the day of 4 Gush- GAT, but only if another Gush was on the way. This is harshly different than Night's Whisper! A net gain of 1 card is a net addition of 3 damage (assuming GAT follows it's game plan and Berserks the tog), while a Gush for a net gain of 3 cards in hand yields 9 damage. (3 discard, 1.5 for RFG'ing those 3 out of the graveyard, Berserk)

At first glance, GAT is the most obvious deck to want to try to fit this new card into. However, is it the deck that stands to gain the most from it's addition? I'm thinking that, although I don't have hardly any experience with the deck, I want to test these in Belcher- since having a key accelerator countered/neutralized often leaves the Belcher player in a draw-go situation for a few turns at least. If not Belcher, then one of those weird budget combo decks surely must be able to use this?