Starting up a type 1 Tourney, hopefully.

[OPColby]

I've been talking with a few people about starting up a type 1 monthly tourney in central Pennsylvania.  It will most likely be in the Harrisburg/Hershey area, preferably in Hershey because it's just a really nice looking place to be, and you don't have to worry about your things getting stolen or your car broke into.  (Harrisburg would be different.)

That being said, I've read the one guy on starcity's article about running a tournament, and agree nearly entirely on everything that he's said.  I.E., unlimited proxies at the beginning, always offering up a piece of power, only doing it monthly, not weekly.

I'm just wondering how to exactly start up a tourney.  I.E., what prices should be, how to get most people to attend, and etc.

I hope to make about 75-100 dollars profit each time, (along with paying for the Mox or whatever the prize may be,) so that it can go towards putting out regular Lotus tournies, which would net much larger profits, and much regular events occuring.

That's right.  You heard me.  I hope to put out, eventually, a monthly Lotus/Mox/Mox tourney in the central PA region, where 50-100 people would be travelling to every month.

I don't own any power aside a crappy LoA.  I could put this up for the prize, but then again, who wants a crappy LoA?

I'm thinking about getting a slightly worn Unlimited Mox Sapphire for about 250 bucks, and putting up an Italian Drain or something other substantially lower in value for second prize.

I don't know about judges yet, (as I really don't know any,) and I don't know what would be a good sum of money to pay one to come and judge the tourney.

I want the first one to be successful, both for me, and for the people who come, even if I only make 50 dollars.

Are there any suggestions that I should have in order to run this tourney properly, or any things I could add that would make you want to come, etc?

The first couple tournies will most likely be an unlimited amount of proxies, going down to 26, then 18, then perhaps 10.  And that's where they'd stay at.

I'm not looking to get a big profit out of this, only to create a booming metagame in central PA, because I don't have anyone to play with my Landstill.  :)

I'd also like to start up a prize for 'funniest deck,' 'greatest amount of wins with lowest amount of proxies,' etc, although they would all be very small prizes at first.

Anyway, I need suggestions, and you people are the ones to turn to for help.

EDIT::   If this is in the wrong forum, which I'm sure it very well might be, could a moderator please move it to the appropriate forum?  I don't mean to seem rebellious and whatnot and just post this anywhere I darn well please.  :)

[Dr. Sylvan]

Moved to Basic User Community Forum.

[jCoKn]

PA seems like a decent location for tourneys maybe... it would attract people from Ohio/NE (assuming prize is desirable) and wouldn't be too much of a drive (for me maybe). What I'd suggest is first off get something finalized then let the community know... just don't double-book on somebody else's date  

[OPColby]

Would a first place Mox Sapphire (or Ruby/Jet) and 2nd place crappy LoA attract 20 people paying 20 dollars each to get in?  Or 30 people paying 15 dollars to get in?

Which is the better way to go:  Hoping for 20 people paying 20 dollars, or 30 people paying 15 dollars?  I assume that it's the 30/15 ratio.  (and that would be 50 dollars more profit anyway.)

That would pay for the Mox and the LoA, and still net me some gain.

Does hiring a judge affect attendance?

Really, I'm asking:  "What most affects your attendance at a big event?"

I'm almost positive the most common answer will be:  "The prize."  However, I'm sure that a 2nd and 3rd prize really matters too.  I, for one, would much rather attend a tourney that cost 5 dollars more but gave a 2nd place LoA and a 3rd place Mana Drain with a Mox top prize rather than only paying 10 bucks to get into a tourney with a Mox 1st prize.

Do I have the common consenus?

Also...what else can I do to increase attendance?  Do hiring judges really matter?  If so, what do judges usually charge to judge the event?  What should a tournament enviroment be like, optimally?  Where should I rent out a tourney site at for people to come most often?  I'm thinking a coffeeshop with large bench tables will probably do the trick at first.  (They'll GLADLY let a tournament happen on mid-Saturday, because it gets people in the coffeehouse to buy drinks, etc.)

Also, what day of the week is most convinent for everyone?  Saturday or Sunday?  I'm thinking Saturday at noon is probably most optimal.

Please, give suggestions.

[Godder]

I've been organising high-level chess events in my country for years, and I can tell you from experience that there are various factors in a person's decision to play, or not play, in a given event.  There are three major factors, however:
[list=1]

• Entry fee & Prize support - if a high entry fee leads to higher prize support, it will be tolerated better, and more prizes means a better chance of winning stuff.
• Competitiveness - this includes card availability (and the related question: to proxy or not to proxy?), and likely strength of the field... For some, strength of competition is a good thing, whereas others dislike tough competition.
• Date & time on the day - the less often something happens, the more likely it is people will give it priority over other events... Try to avoid obvious clashes, as well.

The answer to these comes from experience, and market research (try handing out some surveys and talking to people...). Leaving the exact date/time and entry fee/prizes out of the way for the time being (I'll get to those in a minute), there are some other things to organise:

• Venue - including sufficient suitable tables & chairs for the likely turnout, plus somewhere for the organiser to use as a base for the day.
• Staff - judge(s) etc.
• Pairings - computer, printer, paper, relevant software, power supply, noticeboard or similar for the pairings and standings.
• Advertising/marketing - people can't come if they don't know it's happening... Fliers/posters at the local card/magic shops are a good start, and talking to people, e-mailing relevant lists and posting details on the Web won't hurt either.
• Miscellaneous stuff - a round timer of some sort, spare pens & paper for life totals (by all means sell them to forgetful people if you're not the generous sort), something to use to number the tables (if needed - depends on the layout of the venue), and you could consider having something that can be used as tokens (whether dice, or a trip down to local pet shop for fancy aquarium stones). A small float is necessary as well, but that doesn't actually cost money as such.

Before you rush out and get all that sorted, you need one more thing: A BUDGET
Get yourself a spreadsheet, and make yourself a budget of income and expenditure, and then fiddle with the income figures to see what sort of turnout you need at each entry fee level (Tools => Goal Seek is your friend here). Prizes are essentially entries less other expenses, so that's the last thing determined.

A sample Budget:

Income
30 Entries @$15 = $450

Expenditure
Venue = $50
Staff = $50
10% set aside for Lotus Tourney = $60
Miscellaneous (fliers etc.) = $40
Total = $200

Prizes = Income less Expenditure = $250 (divided as you see fit)

Prepare the spreadsheet properly, and this becomes a lot easier (PM me if you/anyone wants a generic budget spreadsheet - I have one that I use for chess tournaments).

The specifics of your first tournament venture... To start with, you want to go as easy on the expenses as possible to minimise the effects on your pocket, and to maximise the prizes. Ask the judge do the first tourney or two for free, in return for being the first judge on your list at later events (if you're planning on running 10 - 11 a year, it's not a bad incentive). That may work with the coffee shop as well - they're getting extra trade, and if all goes well, you'll be back as a regular thing (at least until you expand beyond their capacity). For the Lotus tourney, leave that deduction for later.  For day, Saturday at noon is good - not too early (allows some travel time), but not too late (shouldn't finish much later than 11:00). Don't forget to allow for a meal break in your scheduling! You're looking at 5 - 6 rounds plus top 4 or top 8 (depending on turnout).

For prizes, some smaller prizes are better than one big prize, as you mentioned. Look around and see what's common, and what's not. Perhaps consider cash prizes for the first tournament, to minimise the impact on you, and to make it easy to spread the prizes around. Don't forget some support lower down to convince them to come back (spot prizes are always fun).

For the future, the Lotus tourney is a cool idea, as is a grand prix/player of the year points system (anything that encourages loyalty is good). If you have to hire a real venue, a canteen helps offset the cost (get thee to thy local supermarket and purchase junk food/drinks cheaply, and then mark them up about 20%). Trading/Dealing cards will make you some money, as will skimming a little off the top (a percentage is better than a flat fee). Maintain budgets of each tourney to keep track of the finances, and consistently aim for better.

Finally, best of luck!

[OPColby]

That is, without a doubt, the best reply I could have hoped for.

And I love chess.  I play the Reti religiously.

f3, c4.  Whatcha gonna do now?  Yeah, that's right, nothing, because you have no idea how to counter that.

Okay, so here's what the prize structure is looking at:

1st)  Fine-Excellent Unlimited Mox Sapphire  or  $200 in cash.
2nd) Played Library of Alexandria  (might be changed to a NM Juzam)
3rd) NearMint Italian Mana Drain

Best Sport prize:  Free entry into next tourney or refund of this tourney.
Weirdest Deck prize:  Zur's Weirding.  (I thought it'd be appropriate.)  AND a booster pack from Mirrodin, Darksteel, or Fifth Dawn.
Fewest Proxies/Most Wins:  A booster pack from Mirrodin, Darksteel, or Fifth Dawn.

I'll get a judge for 50 bucks.

Expenses for these:  About $350-400.

15 bucks entry fee sounds right.

I'll also go with the Grand Prix/League Player idea.  Sounds good.  How do you do that, exactly?  My first thought is to do it like this:

In the top 8, everyone gets a point.  Those who make it to the top four get another point.  Those who make it to the finals get another point, and the winner of that gets yet another point.

In a top 4, it goes like this:

1x3
1x2
2x1

top 8 goes like this:

1x4
1x3
2x2
4x1

If there's a top 16,  it goes like this:

1x5
1x4
2x3
4x2
8x1

Granted, you get more points for being the champ in a top 16, you have to beat more people, so it's well earned.

At the end of six tournies, someone is crowned the champion for a time and given a prize.  It'll be a good prize, too.  Maybe not a Mox, but I was thinking something like an old bizarre card, like Diamond Valley or Drop of Honey.  Arabian Nights prizes are COOL.

I'll do it like that to encourage loyalty.

[MarkPharaoh]

Reti, ewwwwww.

Finally, we might have some good T1 tourneys in PA!! (i'm under 18 so legally can't drive out of state).  I live in the Pocono Mountains about 30 minutes South of Scranton.  Godder made an excellent post and I can't really can't say anything better.  But I am willing to help you anyway possible so if you need any help whatsoever PM/AIM me!

[OPColby]

Yes!  Rock on, MarkPharoah.  Get to talking with any buddies that play magic which you might have.  (Once again, I say 'might have' because T1 is so dead here in PA, heh.)

The more people I get, the bigger the prizes get.  I'm really looking forward to putting out a Lotus and a Mox monthly.

I'm also wondering the specifics of how EXACTLY to run a tournament.

For instance, how do I tell people where to go when their match is finished?  Let's say 37 people come to this tourney.  (shooting high, I know, but I wanted over 32 people to be in it, and an odd number at that for the weirdest of problems.)

How exactly would you conduct that?

What about for a 91 man tourney?  (again, hypothetically)

What I'm really asking is:  When someone is done with their match, and they come up and tell you, "I just defeated so and so," you mark W for them, L for the other guy, but then what happens?  (You can tell I've never run a tourney before.)

I'm guessing, nay, super-guessing:

That you get everyone to give you a decklist of what they're running, and when the tourney is about to start, give them all their randomized pairings, (which can be done by rolling dice, I know how to do that much,) and when they lose/win tell them to come up to you.

So you just put a W (2-0) or (2-1) by their name when they win, a L (0-2), or (1-2) by their name when they lose, and D (0-0) when they draw and separate them into piles?

Like if you did 5 rounds until the top 4 or 8:

You would have a 5 win pile, a 4 win pile, a 3 win pile, etc etc etc.

Then you would just take them from the most winningest, such as taking two 5 winners, three 4 winners, and 2 three winners, and then you would have to have a tiebreaker because two of the people in the 3 winningest pile have the same record of wins/losses and draws...?

Then you would seed them the best with the worst, such as 1st place meets 8th place, etc.

That's just total guessage though.  How exactly does it work?

I'm also guessing matches (or rounds) should take 25 minutes each with like a 5 minute break?  (So I can get the pairings matched up and they can go to the bathroom and whatnot.)

[MarkPharaoh]

For running the actual tournament, I suggest you talk to either Steve (Smmenen) Tom (MolotDET) or Ray (iamfishman) as they both have adequate experience at running Power Tournaments.

[ProZachar]

First off, someone mentioned cash prizes.  If you do that, make damn sure you know you don't violate state and local laws regarding gambling before you even think about that.

If you can find a registered Tournament Organizer or a certified judge, s/he should have access to DCI Reporter software.  It has a bit of a learning curve, but it takes the hassle out of pairings.  The tournament doesn't have to be sanctioned (if you're running a proxy tournament it can't be) to use DCIR.  Just don't submit the results.

Magic tournaments are run either _____ elimination style or Swiss-style.  In single elimination, if a player loses a match she or he is eliminated, double elimination is 2 match losses, etc.  I have no idea how to set up a bracket for double (or more) elimination, but for single elimination you have to start with a power of 2 (2,4,8,16,32,64,128).  As the numbers get higher, this becomes more and more problematic.  If you don't have a power of 2 in attendance, then you have to have a play in round where 2*(n-p) players play (the rest get byes), where n is your attendance and p is the highest power of 2 that is less than your attendance.  To run a single elimination tournament to conclusion you need log(base2) of p rounds, plus one potential extra round for the play-in.

Swiss is better for large tournaments.  You could call it "power-matching".  Basically it's the people with the best standings play each other, and the people with the worst standings play each other.  There's a complex formula for determining who the best is ("tiebreakers" in Magic tournament lingo).  It initally starts out with match record, but it works its way down to things like opponent records and opponent game win percentage and crap like that.  DCI Reporter takes care of all this when it generates pairings.  It is as invisible to you as you want to make it.  The nice thing about Swiss is that people can play in every round if they choose, even if they are losing badly.  Players can drop any time between rounds.  If you want to cut to top 8, tiebreakers determine who makes it.  Very rarely when using the formula should you actually have a complete tie at the bottom of the cut (which would require a tie-breaking game or match to get into top whatever).

1 meets 8, 2 meets 7, etc. is usually the way finals are run.

Matches should be given an absolute minimum of 45 minutes.  50 minutes is lots better.  Matches in top 8 often are untimed (though you could just have top 4 or finals untimed).  Post pairings as soon as you can after you get the last result from the previous round.  There's a 5 minute rule to get to your seat after posting, so that lets even the last table to finish some pee time or whatever before the next round.

[OPColby]

Okay, that last post was great.

My pile strategy works.  Heh heh.  :)

I like Swiss, because I don't want people to be single elimed.  I play Urb Landstill with REB's in the sideboard (of course).  Think:  Everyone is playing Mono Blue Control, except for one guy who is O. Stompy, and then there's me.  I get paired up with the guy playing O.Stompy.  I lose the tournament because of ONE GUY.

Yeah, that's a bummer.

So really, this happens:

Alright everyone.  The tournament has just started.  Here are the people you are playing:  John Doe, you are playing John Q. Public.  And so on and so forth.  You have five minutes to get to your seats, and you have 50 minutes to play your match.  Whenever you are finished, please come tell me as soon as your match is over.

10 minutes later, John Q. Public comes up to me and says his deck wins 2-0.  I tell him he's the first to win, so he should wait until someone else has won.

5 minutes after that, Johnny B. Good comes up to me and says his deck won, 2-1.

I pair those two up, and the losers of those two up.

I now have a 1 win pile, a 1 loss pile, and a 'still in first round progress' pile.

The 50 minutes are over.  I announce that everyone must stop their games in progress and please report to me the standings.  I mark everyone's standings, separate everyone into win/loss piles, and then divide them up yet again like that.

This works all the way until the end of the fifth (or sixth) round where I take the top 8 out, (or top 4, or top 16, if I REALLY get that many people.)  Then I say that matches in the top 8 are untimed, and here are your pairings.

Then I actually make a tournament bracket on a spare sheet of paper.

Thanks.

[Jebus]

You shouldn't pair people based on who finished first.

You should wait until all players are finished before paring.

Here is the DCI document for running a tournament via Swiss.

http://www.wizards.com/dci/downloads/Swiss_Pairings.pdf

It's a little out of date, but it should give you good guidelines on how to get things done in a manner everyone should be happy with.  Match slips also help.

As well, you may want to become an official TO sometime and hold sanctioned events.  More info on that can be found here http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dci/sanctioning.

[johnstown713]

Looks liek fun and I will most likely make the journy down.  Make sure you understand for the first one or few tournies you will most likely lose money.  This always happens and you must acknowledge this.  Please dont set pairings on who ends first.

[ProZachar]

It's starting to sound more and more like you don't have any tournament experience.

You should go play in, or at least watch/volunteer at, a local tournament if you can.  Even if it's Type 2 or Limited.  Actually, you should observe at least 2 tournaments before you try running your own.

[OPColby]

Yep, I have almost no experience about running a tourney.  That's why I need your helps.  All I have experience in is draft tourneys.

[nataz]

A few hopefully helpful points:

-use DCI reporter, and get a good experienced judge.

You seem not to have much tourney experience, and you may want to have someone around who is more familiar with the process and the software. The road to perdition is paved with good intentions, and I can pretty much promise you that if you screw up your first tourney (no matter how much good you are trying to do) it will put a huge black mark on the rest of your tourneys. If you want an example of how screwing up rounds will really mess up your event, just look at what happend at the infamous two round two dual lotus tourney.

-you may also want to attend a few type one (or even type two) events to get a feel for what it is like yourself.

-I would suggest the use of both match slips and deck lists. The list is used for random deck checks (make sure everything is legal) and the match slips help keep everything running smoothly. You do know what match slips are right? I find that having both players sign and hand you a paper trail makes mistakes far easier to catch.

-I think you should offer power for first no matter what, but as far prize payouts I think you have two options.

1) Huge prize payout and therefore high entry fee

pro: More people get prizes, encourages people to come back even if they didn’t win, higher attendance
con: expensive, and if you dont have high attendance you lose money

2) Low prize payout (e.g., mox for first and maybe a dual or something for second) and low entry fee

pro: much cheaper, less of a risk for you. Need less participants to make your money back
con: More people leave with nothing

As for which one you choose, I think you just have to gauge the group you are catering too.

If it is a group of people that are new to type one, lots of smaller prizes (but still have a mox as first) with a high entry fee may be good. You want them to win (or have a good chance of wining) something to encourage them to come back again.

If you are trying to attract a more regular type one crowd, then I'd bet you would want to have a lower entry fee. If its a good event, you shouldn't have to convince them to come back with little incentives, the competition and Mox should be enough.  

You may want to check Steve’s thread that linked to his article on SCG here on TMD. It had a pretty good discussion going for a while about how to set up a tourney.

Best of luck
-carter

[Godder]

I agree with the points Nataz made regarding generally running things, so I'll just add a few things as far as prizes go.

You've basically got two options: the Mox Gambit, or a prize structure based on actual turnout (basically, you get some good cards, and then give them away depending on how many people come along, or you can do cash/boosters). I call it the Mox Gambit because you're risking a fair amount of money on the hope that enough people will be drawn in by the promise of the Mox to actually pay for said Mox.

Playable (Juzam basically isn't playable) older cards are always good prizes, even cheap ones. Bring along one of each of the restricted list from RV and later (Tutors, Balance, Sol Ring, Urza's Broken stuff etc.) and give spot prizes as a player's choice from what you've got. Add in some playsets of playable older commons and uncommons (StoP, REB, Bolts etc), and you have cool, cheap stuff for the more recent players.

Stuff like Dual Lands, FoW, Mana Drains make great additional prizes (singles or playsets will depend on value of the card and turnout). A playset of RV U-producing Duals is $50+, in reasonable condition, so that's not a bad second or third prize at all, and is eminently tradeable. Free entry to another tournament is fine as well, particularly lower down the order (you want as many people as possible, and this encourages further turnouts, and if you don't hold further tourneys, you can refund later on).

Be careful not to overdo the risk to yourself, though - you shouldn't lose money at all, and certainly no more than $50 a tournament (you can easily get that back later on).

Proxies encourage turnout, so unlimited proxies for the first tourney isn't a bad idea at all (make sure to state that  they must be clear and legible, though, and Oracle wording is Tech).

For loyalty schemes, prizes like free entry next time is good, and either you can use something like Formula 1 (look it up) which tallies over the season/year, or you can make it the points total from a player's best 4 results (or similar), so they still have to turn out, but not every single time.

For actual allocation of points, F1 has a reasonable system, or you can give something like number of rounds times 8 for first down to 1 for 8th, which means that more people means more points in a given tourney.

If you need more help/info, by all means ask .

[OPColby]

Thanks, those both help alot.

Yeah, I definitely don't want to screw anything up, so chances are the first tourney is going to be in the fall so I can get everything in gear.  (Three months to get something in gear, heh, how cool is that?)

I'd like to attend some T1 tourneys before I actually start my own.  I'm looking to go to the 6/6 Lotus tourney with URB Landstill.

The decklist is nearly the same as UR landstill with the following exceptions:
1 Dem Tutor
1 Vamp Tutor
1 Yawg's Will
2 Bolts
no chain of vapors
2 Stifle
1 Teferi's Response (the thing ALWAYS comes in handy)
NO basic lands (B2B and Blood Moon don't rock me, though)
2 Misdirection

And the following BOMBS in the sideboard:
1 Mind Twist
2 Perish

I think those are the noticable differences.  I really love the stifles/responses, really wish I could fit more in.  I'm thinking about taking out a misdirection and adding in a stifle.  Stifles are just SO much more useful so much more of the time.  I find myself pitching a misdirection to FoW all the time.  However, I'd probably blow the stifle on a wasteland and go, 'ha ha,' and then not have anything to pitch to FoW.  *frown*

Thanks for all of your advice, it's so helpful, and I really appreciate your willingness to help, Godder.  Do you have AIM so I might be able to IM you up?

[Godder]

AIM is about the one programme I don't bother with . I have MSN, Yahoo, ICQ, and I've been known to drop by IRC occasionally as well. If you'd like some help or info, give me some details and I'll add you.

Going to other tourneys and asking questions/taking notes is a good plan, since the best experience is someone else's...

[OPColby]

Good news, everyone.

I actually got someone to run the tournament for me, (he runs tournaments all the time and knows how to use the DCI thing,) as well as a judge, (who got a FOIL BALANCE, with an AWESOME PICTURE for being a judge).

Looks like this might start up sooner than I had expected.