[Dicussion]: Taking fish head on with Slaver

[Mixing Mike]

To start, here's a sample list  I'm assuming to be the standard.

 
// Mana
5 Moxen
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
6 Island
1 Library of Alexandria
2 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
4 Volcanic Island

// Creatures
4 Goblin Welder
1 Pentavus
1 Platinum Angel

// Spells
1 Tinker
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
4 Thirst for Knowledge
3-4 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Memory Jar
2 Mindslaver
1 Time Walk
2 Cunning Wish
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Demonic Tutor
2-3 Fire/Ice
0-1 Fact or Fiction

// Sideboard
Varies, but may include Blood Moons, Rack and Ruins, Red Elemental Blasts, Gorillia Shamans, Fact or Fiction/Skeletyal Scrying, Echoing Truth, Shattering Pulse, Hibernation, Vampiric Tutor, Coffin Purge, etc...


Any type of Null Rod aggro is hard for Slaver.  Big O and FCG have such a consistant flow of threats that sometimes you can't just keep up with.  Fish based decks can disrupt you enough through well timed Standstills and and gain board position through Null Rods, Wastelands and Curosities.  Depending on your opening hand, sometimes you can out control these 'NullRod aggro' decks with Fire and Drains.  Other hands you have to play in the combo style of the deck, just going right for the nuts from the first land drop, allowing yourself to being vunerable to disruption.  And then there's the third kind of hand which comes up most often, the hand that's effected the most by their disruption.  So how does one win the 'NullRod aggro' matchups?

FTK has been proven to be very effective, espically vs FCG and Fish style decks but that eats up sideboard slots that may be used for Rack and Ruins and Gorillia Shamans or even wish targets like Shattering Pulse and Echoing Truth.  I'm convinced that Hibernation is the best answer to Big O and other green 'NullRod aggro' decks.  Fire is the best weapon built into the MD, which is a multi-hit removal spell.  So it makes sense that a multi-hit wish target would be a good idea, and the best option is given to us by Starstom.  Starstorm can be very effective once overcoming the tough early game, usually resulting in a victory.  With that being said, it may not warrant inclusion over say riding the FTK's games 2+3.  The biggest questions are....

1) Are 'NullRod aggro' decks worth the sideboard slots?  
2) If yes, then what sideboard plan is the best way to go?  
3) Or should one forget all that and say 'NullRod aggro decks are just a matchup one should take as a loss while playing Control Slaver'.

And then a 4th question comes up, looking something like...
Is the 4th Brainstorm more important to the deck to stablize it's mana base out greater than the effect of the 3ed Fire/Ice in the mirror and 'NullRod aggro' matchups?

[paradigm]

EDIT: Note - I'm assuming this is primarily based on the control slaver matchup based on the decklist posted.

Of the Null Rod decks - the only viable threat in a balanced field is Blue-Red fish and Madness which run the Rod maindeck, and FCG, which runs it sideboard.

However the Blue-Red fish and Madness matchup must be addressed for its prevalence. Against Fish, the FTK alone is not a solid enough win condition due to its low toughness, however Blood Moon provides a strong option, with the build you suggest, allowing big plats tp attempt to sweep for the win. Nevertheless, Null Rod provides a significant problem. As far as Cunning Wish targets, Rack and Ruin remains a solid choice due to its ability to hit in the mirror more - taking out a mox from your side should not sgnificantly hinder your progress, however having a Shattering Pulse and/or Echoing Truth also would work well if one chooses to use Cunning Wish. The other answer invovles forgoing Cunning Wish for Gorilla Shaman represented in Jason Stinnett's Columbus deck from a month back, which used 2 MD and 2 SB. Right now the Shaman seems a stronger option due to also having versatility in the control slaver mirror - howeverthe five mana does become difficult, and thus the control elements (or just Mana Drain) must be used to buy ample time. Game one is difficult, but bringing in more sideboard threats - particularly in Blood Moon and more Shamans make games two and three easier.

In the madness matchups, the FTKs become a more significant threat, however still here the Null Rod must become addressed - as the Kavus will find difficulty both making it into play and actually winning the game - particularly with the presence of Wonder to mess with combat math. It becomes apparent readily that Null Rod be addressed, and again Shaman seems the better answer due to the fact that it is harder to counter turn one, and remains a chump blocker. With all of Madness' spells, Mana Draining becomes more viable into sinking into a Shaman, whereas Cunning Wish options can be easily countered (since you're essentially on a five-turn clock) once madness gets going untapping on turn three with Logic up. In addition, the postsideboard addition of artifact removal in Oxidize also contributed to the pain of the matchup.

The difficulty in relying on creatures (Plat and Pentavus in control slaver) is that it becomes more difficult to accelerate them from under a Null Rod lock, and to play them proactively also lowers your guard - particularly in the first few turns. Against Fish, they have the potential to pack Lavamancers, which help to wreck, and can sail over with flying creatures (except versus Plat) while your 5/5 can rarely attack without dying - in terms of getting the four swings in. In addition, once a Null Rod hits - which is the crux of the debate - it becomes difficult to accelerate a creature with your now hindered mana base - especially since Control Slaver does not run that many lands, and even more difficult to resolve one, particularly since the turn two Standstill is just as powerful a play. With a Welder in play, the game will definitely get better as a recurring beatstick is also strong, but resolving a Welder - or keeping it alive, is equally as interesting. The final danger comes in Fish's ability to toss uncounterable threats - putting a flying clock forces Control Slaver to dig for big plats, which should play into Fish's plan. Since the core of the plan of Control Slaver (to abuse Mana Drain, resolving Draw and a solid one-shot-victory threat) - which Fish has shown the ability to suceed against.

The problem is also that you cannot attack into the Fish team, which sorely hurts in terms of actually trying to win the game.  Against Madness, as noted, the advantage gets worse with Wonder, and it also becomes difficult to throw in a Cunning Wish in the face of Force and Logic, or Force and Drain.

With FCG, artifacte hate in the non-shaman form must be present due to the power of FCG - Shaman cannot cut it here. Unfortunately, should a Rod hit, your days are numbered and should it not, your hate is useless. Unfortunately this is a difficult matchup post board for control slaver, and Null Rod is more often than final nail which seals victory. If it hits you almost can't win, however there are more threats to deal with. Artifact hate will not make this matchup easier, Null Rod or no.

[kirdape3]

Null Rod fails in that it doesn't actually stop the fact that the creatures in Slaver are gigantic.  Memnarch is 4/5 - it'll take forever for a team from Fish to mow that down.  Triskelion is 4/4.  Pentavus is 5/5.  And so on.  Fish won't actually deal very well with gigantic creatures, even if those creatures do nothing but attack since Null Rod made them just unthinking brutes.

Where that plan fails is Madness.  Wonder just makes all of your creatures irrelevant - oh look mine fly.  I also have Oxidize to make for one hell of a removal spell.

[Mixing Mike]

The difficulty in relying on creatures (Plat and Pentavus in control slaver) is that it becomes more difficult to accelerate them from under a Null Rod lock, and to play them proactively also lowers your guard - particularly in the first few turns................Since the core of the plan of Control Slaver (to abuse Mana Drain, resolving Draw and a solid one-shot-victory threat) - which Fish has shown the ability to succeed against.

While that is all very true, the brain-less beasts create a stalemate on the table, usually long enough to allow you to find the answers you need.  The major key to winning is keeping them to only 1 Lavamancer.

Where that plan fails is Madness. Wonder just makes all of your creatures irrelevant - oh look mine fly. I also have Oxidize to make for one hell of a removal spell.

That's why FTK is such a strong option.  Usually trading 2-for-1 vs. Fish, FCG, and Madness while also avoiding Oxidize and ReB.  

I think one of the questions have been answerd.  And that being 'NullRod aggro' is worth the sb slots.  The next thing is what plan is the best.  Has anyone else tried out Starstorm yet?  Or am I the only one.  After some more testing, it's a good 'oh shit' button game 1 if you have a wish.  With only 2 wishes, drawing them early on when you need them is hard more often than not.  Because of that, I've started to feel that the FTK plan is a better option than running a mass removal spell.

[KSesler]

Mike:

There was a brief discussion of Starstorm a few weeks back.

I have used it in my Control Slaver sideboard, and it works reasonably well against FCG.

[Mixing Mike]

I knew that.  But it never dicussed what SB plan is better for these matchups.  I tok out the Masticore junk to clean up the quote...

Starstorm is the winner in my mind (edited: between Masticore/Starstorm), but thinking about it I see arguments for both.

Speed
-Starstorm - Instant.  You can use it on an opponent's turn.  When you absolutely need something dead it cost 2 + damage.

"Deadness"
-Starstorm - cycles if they did a transformational sideboard on you

Tutorability
-Starstorm - fetched game 1

Hate
-Starstorm - In response what does FCG do other than die?

Negative impact to your gameplan
-Starstorm - Ooops your welders/pentavites die

The FTK Plan has been working very well.  It always trades at least 2-for-1 vs Ravager, and Madness.  They usually trade 2-for-1 vs. Fish and FCG as well, barring burn spells.  It's not very hard to keep FCG from comboing off anyways with the build listed.  Fire keeps sharpshooters off the table, and it's hard for them to land a Food Chain more often than not.

Is it just me, or do people not care, or has this topic been beaten to death?

[Edit]: typos

[jpmeyer]

I just thought that it was established that FTK was supposed to be in the SB.

[rvs]

I just thought that it was established that FTK was supposed to be in the SB.

correct.