[Article]Ben Bleiweiss Opinions 5D and Type One

[cssamerican]

Ben Bleiweiss Opinions of Fifth Dawn and Type One Innovation

To me his opinions of the cards were quite off especially his opinion of Artificer's Intuition, and every other word attack the Type one community for lack of innovation. I felt like yelling, NULL ROD YOU FOOL, at my computer at one point when he basically insulted the Type One community for not getting Skullclamp restricted yet! Now you know my opinion of the article, let me here yours :)

[Loci]

Ben has very funny moments. This was not such a moment.

No, just kidding. Lighten up cssamerican, I am sure he's fooling around a bit as well.  

It was a nice read, nothing spectacular, but a nice read.

[goober]

His calls on the cards are way off, and the innovation thing is definitly wrong.  Look at how many new decks there are, Ghermbus, Slaver, Raffinity, FCG, Belcher which are all competitive.  And there is less visible innovation because the best decks were already figured out, and 165 out of 6000 card changes don't impact as much as when they are a 1/5th of the cards legal.

[OPColby]

You know, I'm trying to start up a healthy type 1 metagame in the store that I play in.  It's hard.

This is the main reason that it's hard.

"I know that all of you Type One players are the best in the world, because you can kill people on the first and the second turn often!"

This prevents more people from playing T1 than anything else.  I've heard everything from:

"It just comes down to the coin flip,"
to
"All anyone plays is combo,"
to
"You need the entire power 10 to make a good deck."

But the thing I've heard most is, "It just comes down to the coin flip."  People think that every match in T1 is decided within 5-10 minutes.  That nearly every game has a 1st, 2nd, 3rd, or 4th turn win, with the EXCEPTIONS lasting longer.

This is retarded:  "Returning up to five cards at once to your hand is major, and All Suns' Dawn is easily splashable in any deck that would want to return five colors of cards to their hand. Initially, I see a majority of Type One players pooh-poohing this spell as it requires five mana to cast."

Is he serious?

I hate the article.

[jpmeyer]

It's a very common technique among well, everyone to antagonize Type 1 players if you want to to get them to write about something.

[MrZuccinniHead]

i agree with the fact that i think you guys are dismissing some of his predictions when you shouldn't.  Although, Artificer's Intuition is definitely not the best card and the steelshaper's gift comment was wrong and blasting station is definitely not good and the bringers probably won't see much play.  Ok, so maybe most of you were right...

[ProZachar]

Shattered Dreams
Which is better, this or Duress? Obviously, Duress is better since it will hit a lot more spells than Shattered Dreams. However, Shattered Dreams would act as a great Duress numbers five through eight against several of the artifact-oriented combo decks in the Type One field. Early disruption is key against combo decks, and Shattered Dreams provides Black a valuable resource for early targeted hand destruction.

"You'll Shatter my Dreams?  Hmm, you get Slaver, Pentavus, or Platinum Angel.  See that Welder?  Yeah, you can't get that.  Somehow, I think it's your dreams that will be shattered."

[DEA]

i don't get why you guys are taking this personally
that article was just a rant by an ignorant keyboard commando
why isn't he playing t1 instead of taking cheap shots at the players?
yup, just what i thought
cos he can't play t1 for nuts :lol:

just take this
"Returning up to five cards at once to your hand is major, and All Suns' Dawn is easily splashable in any deck that would want to return five colors of cards to their hand. Initially, I see a majority of Type One players pooh-poohing this spell as it requires five mana to cast."

yo sherlock, it's because we don't have that many damn multicoloured spells to make casting a giant drain target during our main phase worthwhile

[combo_dude]

i don't get why you guys are taking this personally
that article was just a rant by an ignorant keyboard commando
why isn't he playing t1 instead of taking cheap shots at the players?
yup, just what i thought
cos he can't play t1 for nuts :lol:

just take this
"Returning up to five cards at once to your hand is major, and All Suns' Dawn is easily splashable in any deck that would want to return five colors of cards to their hand. Initially, I see a majority of Type One players pooh-poohing this spell as it requires five mana to cast."

yo sherlock, it's because we don't have that many damn multicoloured spells to make casting a giant drain target during our main phase worthwhile

We know he can't play type 1. The average Magic player doesn't. We see a guy talking out of his ass. They see a normally fairly-well-informed guy who's got a decent reputation telling us that type 1 games are over in the first few turns and that type 1 players have no skill.

Not much of an advert for type 1, is it?

[Green Knight]

I guess this could be considered a good article if you think it will spawn rebuttal articles along the lines of the whole Matt Smith ordeal.  Other than that all I see this as is a few hunderd words counting towards the 18K commitment. Go Ben go!

[goober]

He says we are being lazy by not making competitive rogue decks, which is wrong, they just turn mainstream faster, then he should offer up one.  Seeing as how he does t2 and therefore is a far better player it should be easy.

If you add up all the mainstream and rogue decks in T2 you still don't get to  the amount of decks mainstream in T1.

[MixedkNuts]

I don't wholeheartedly support Bleiweiss's views on Type I, but no matter how bad you think his article is (and there's a lot that he's said that was right), this thread is competing for the title of "dumbest ever," and I run a website FULL of dumb forum threads, so I see them all the time.  Congrats.

--Knut

[Squee]

If you add up all the mainstream and rogue decks in T2 you still don't get to the amount of decks mainstream in T1.

The reason for this is that there are more quality players in type 2.  I love type 1 but there is more luck involved with it then in other formats.  We have so many decks because there aren't enough really good players like JP and Stephen Mendian(spelled wrong, i know) to totally test and weed out the tier 2-3 decks that aren't as good as the top decks which is why type 2 has like 3 decks.  While this current type 2 format isn't nearly as skill intensive then past ones any type 1 play can topdeck a tutor or Yawg Will and figure out that by casting his entire graveyard he'll win the game.  And like Ben said, if there was more prize support other than power tournaments that more good players would come to the format.

[Philatio]

I don't wholeheartedly support Bleiweiss's views on Type I, but no matter how bad you think his article is (and there's a lot that he's said that was right), this thread is competing for the title of "dumbest ever," and I run a website FULL of dumb forum threads, so I see them all the time.  Congrats.

--Knut

     Only fitting for the dumbest Type 1 article to ever cross your desk, Knut.  Front page flamebait, wait to keep the quality up.  Congrats.

Slurp,
Philatio

[combo_dude]

I think Knut has a small point...at least the thread in the Community forum isn't random flames. It's generally taken for granted that we disagree with Bleiweiss' viewpoint here - so don't waste your time saying so.

I personally disliked it because it was poorly informed and clearly provoking the T1 community, as well as damaging to T1's image. He needed to be better informed about T1 before the article. Especially right on the back of JP's article, who is a fairly well-known T1 expert. Compared to THAT it was ass.

[Calibus]

Unfortunately, Ben was correct on the fact that the median skill level of Type 1 players is lower than that of other sanctioned formats, excluding Type 1.5, which I like to pretend doesn't exist.

Not everyone can afford to get into Type 1 based on the original start up cost.  Less people playing with these cards means less people learning from each other.  You cannot become skilled at a competitive game in a vacuum.

In my opinion, Type 1 is the most skill intensive constructed format in Magic.  From the beginnings of a deck to that last life point of a match, the chance to make mistakes is much greater.

Allow me to expand.  You can play with any card in Magic.  We are talking about a 6000+ card pool here.  When you build a deck, assuming you are using only 60 cards, you are using less than 1% of the entire card pool.  This means that every single slot in your deck must be the best possible fit.  I've spent countless hours agonizing over every slot for each deck that I play with.  This isn't the hardest decision to make in Type II because your options are much more limited.

None of the other formats punish you like Type 1 for making a play mistake.  The power level in Type 1 is so high, that just one small error can easily cost you an entire game or match.  The majority of the Type 1 matches that I see and/or play in, are not won because one player had an amazing opening draw.  They are won because one player gave his opponent an opening that was unnecessary, and his opponent proceeded to cast Will, Mindslaver, Ancestral, etc.

But who is going to teach you not to make these mistakes?  The 10-year old child who pulled a deck off the internet, threw the allowable 10 proxies (or whatever) into it, then brought it to the tournament with no playtesting whatsoever?  Or maybe it will be the guy that thinks he is great because he beats the same 10-year old.

The best players in the world do not play Type 1 competitively.  Why should they?  They focus their energy on the Pro Tour and the Grand Prix where they can make some money playing.

I'm not saying that none of the great players play Type 1 or that all Type 1 players couldn't be playing on the Pro Tour.  However, I am fairly certain that it is a very small minority that do.

The purpose of this post was not to belittle the Type 1 community.  It was written with the hope to educate and inspire the community as a whole to make each other better.  The Type 1 Championship this year was considered a joke by many Magic players, and even more so after some of the less than complementary articles written about it.  I hope next year that the joke will be on them.


JD

[Smmenen]

The best players in the world do not play Type 1 competitively.  Why should they?  They focus their energy on the Pro Tour and the Grand Prix where they can make some money playing.JD

I agree with the first statement, but disagree with the second.  Making money on the Pro Tour is not worth the effort you put in to earn it.  Go to Medical School or Law School and put in that same effort and you will be making far more money.  

The reason to put the PT level effort into Type One is simple: becuase it is enjoyable.  And anyone who plays on the Pro Tour only rationally does so because they enjoy magic.  Hell that level of card skill would be much more lucrative playing Poker - which many magic players do.

Steve

[Ric_Flair]

Go to Medical School or Law School and put in that same effort and you will be making far more money.

AMEN BROTHA!!!!!

Seriously, some of the guys on the PT would be working at 7-11 otherwise (Darwin), running D and D nights in their parent's basement (Rob), or sucking at professional poker (Huey, Finkel).  The smart ones either got off the tour, like Buehler, or went and did what Steve recommended--Michelle Bush.  As for Zvi and Kibler, I think they are going on a three year paid vacation from being adults.

[Dr. Sylvan]

this thread is competing for the title of "dumbest ever,"

C'mon. Think of the competition you're putting this near!

http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=16588

Also, I'm really pretty proud of my forum responses to Ben's article, so y'all should go over there, assimilate my ideas, and then regurgitate them here to improve the discussion. ;)

[defector]

Right on Steve,
I do type 1 because I like it.  I've realized that I'm not a pro tour quality innovator/deckbuilder/player, I knew this years ago.  I play and work at it and contribute what little I have because I enjoy doing it.  I have the same philosophy with cards, my two moxen and ancestral are in playing cases, not under glass.  As far as taking criticism from some scg clown about how poor the scene, if he thinks it needs to be fixed let me be the first to invite him to tmd to post innovations on and help us improve the community.  I'd like to see what kind of expert advice he has for us.
defector

[Lunk]

While I disagree with many of his individual card evaluations, they really didn't bother me that much.  It's customary for there to be bombs in a set that everyone thought would be awesome, and vice versa, and in general I don't like to discount anything that has even a prayer until a while after the cards have become legal.  My major problem was his continuing insinuations that T1 players were stupid, and that he had all the answers -- such as replacing Goblin Welder with Bringer of the White Dawn.

My other thoughts can be viewed in the thread, if for some reason you have an uncontrollable urge to read them!

[goober]

I personally do Type 1 because I fell in love with my Sol Ring back in 1994, and haven't wanted to play a deck without it ever since.

I think the median level of player is a lot better in T1 than T2 because usually only people who have played for a while play T1, so they have practice, and the decks are just harder to play.  If you look at the top 100 then the median of that is lower than the median of the top 100 T2 players, but that is an unfair statistic.  The top 100 of us might represent 5% while in T2 it is 1%.  If you compare the proportionatly similar amount of people then I think you will see the T1 players as being better.  

As for building or own decks, that is a cheap shot that doesn't even prove a point.  Every format includes netdecking.  I doubt 50% of the people playing T2 all independantly created Ravager.  In T1 a lot of the people do create their own decks, which is why the metagame include so many different decks right now.   Many people have made their own decks, then those good ones became popular, and the bad aren't known.

[Rico Suave]

The format has been criticized like this for years, yet for some reason it's only getting better....

Are you gonna stop playing T1 just because some moron said a few bad things?  No, you're not, and nobody else is either.  Actually, if someone would be so stupid as to not play it just because of a few things said over the internet, then do we really want them to play with us in the first place?

[Angel]

I thought the article was alright. It was slightly amusing, but not in any way useful. I'm never really much for new set reviews, because nobody knows how good a card will be until it's tested in a competitive deck archetype.

I know this article probably left a bad taste in everyone's mouth. Some of his points had a shred of truth to them. A lot of players (mostly Type 2 and Extended, in my area) think type one is all about money, and if you aren't powered, you can't compete. Well, that is false, because we all know how strong U/G Madness, FCG, and U/R or U/G Fish are in the current meta. They may not be as broken or as destructive as the other decks in the format that do run the power are, but in the hands of a skilled player, they can be taken to the Top 8 in many competitive environments. Myself, I am not powered except for an Ancestral and an LoA, but I consistently do well playing Fish or Landstill (okay, so Drains, too) in DCI Sanctioned and Unsanctioned Type One tournaments. I used to win a decent amount of the time when I didn't even have my two power cards.

This brings me to my next point. I really want to know who things that we're a bunch of elitist, arrogant arseholes who shun innovation and only accept certain decks as good and the rest as "omg n00b rofl gtfo!!!!!11!!1!" (yes, I love 1337 sp34k)? Seriously, find a vintage player who thinks that. I've met a huge amount, Drainers and non-Drainers, of type one players, and not one has anywhere close to this attitude. You know who gives us this image? The Type 2 players. Seriously. I find that your average player who plays type 2 and block exclusively has a contempt for Vintage that I find baffling.

For example, against my better judgement, I played at Regionals this year with a Slide deck that was fairly out of date. I mainly went to hunt power and cool stuff, not to play type 2 for the joy of it. Anyways, despite my severe scrubbing out (I was 5-1 and through a bad string of long day + bad deck + idiot me, i lost my next four. ugh), I did have a decent time getting to know some of my opponents. I got a lot of flak for being mainly a type one player, mostly from type 2 guys that live at FNM. I got flak for having an Ancestral (I was talking to a buddy of mine who asked to see it, and when i pulled it out, everyone decided to add in their opinions. double ugh). So, at the end of the day, I had a very low opinion of Type 2, because I really did not have much fun. It wasn't the losing, it was just how everyone acted. Nobody was having a good time it seemed. Everyone wanted to just win. So, I thought one Type 2 experience wasn't enough to base my judgements on, so I hit up a couple FNM's in the following weeks.

Oh... my... God... I swear, FNM has killed any hope that I could ever play Type 2. Seriously. The people (at a couple stores, not only one) just aren't fun. They're mostly arrogant, somewhat elitist, and generally unfriendly. And, they mostly say this of type one players. I make an effort to be extra nauseatingly corteous during the match, then afterwards, pull out my Type One deck and ask if they're powered. It's funny to watch their reactions sometimes.
My experience at type one events is a world of difference. Even at DCI Sanctioned events with power as the prize, people are 180 degrees different. We laugh with the judges. We make endless puns and jokes. We're extremely laidback, which I find really weird when a good amount of us play thought intensive control and combo. The environment is just amazing. Seriously, if anyone tells you that Type one players are arrogant or elitist or whatnot, have them take a decent deck to a type one tournament, or just go watch one. They're bound to get a different opinion.

I love type one, I love the players, and I wish more people would shed their outside view of us. I think I speak for all of us when I say that we don't bite... much.  :lol:

I do apologize for being a tad (understatement alert) long winded here. If anyone has a disagreement or would like to discuss something off in here personally, I'm always open to PM's.

Peace

John

[ProZachar]

While I agree that T1 players in general are more laid back than T2 players, I think the reason is a lot less flattering than we would like to think.

If:
1)  The cost of entry into T1 were lower and
2)  There were a high-level tournament circuit for T1 like there is for T2, BC, and T1.x,

do you think T1 would be as friendly as it is now?

T1 players are competitive because we want to find the best deck out of all the cards we have.  In the end, the satisfaction of knowing your deck is the best, and the occasional Mox, are all we get as rewards in T1.  In my opinion, we're in it for the means more so than the ends.  We're the academians of Magic.

T2 players are competitve because they want to win.  They want the "fame" and fortune of being the best.  In the end, there's a lot more potential for the winners in T2 outside of prize packs or store credit.  They're in it for the ends more so than the means.  They're the businesses of Magic.  

I'm not trying to knock T2 by saying that*.  It takes all kinds.

*Don't get me wrong, I'll make fun of T2 just as much as the next guy.  I'm just not trying to do it here.

[MixedkNuts]

"Sucking at professional poker (Huey, Finkel)."

Tony, if you make as much on a yearly basis at any point in your Legal career as these two make supposedly sucking at poker, you will be a very very rich man.  A few years ago I made what I considered to be a lot of money, and I know for a fact that just the bankroll for either one of these guys is twice that sum.

Not that the rest of your points weren't somewhat legit, but there are hefty tradeoffs between leaving in the real world and working in the gaming industry.

[TracerBullet]

I think the real thing is, both sides, Type One players, Type One haters, put up or shut up.

[Smmenen]

"Sucking at professional poker (Huey, Finkel)."

Tony, if you make as much on a yearly basis at any point in your Legal career as these two make supposedly sucking at poker, you will be a very very rich man.  A few years ago I made what I considered to be a lot of money, and I know for a fact that just the bankroll for either one of these guys is twice that sum.

Not that the rest of your points weren't somewhat legit, but there are hefty tradeoffs between leaving in the real world and working in the gaming industry.

Right - but my point remains - they are making it outside of magic .

Steve

[waSP]

I've played with some "pros" or wannabe pros at Type One tournament.  At Crazy Con, Mike Krum tried to cheat Frankson out of a match, which they ended up tying (leaving Fraknson undefeated with like 5 draws).  It's the spirit of play of T1 players that is important.  There are also nice people that play both formats.  It's all about the type of players that you attract.  Type One being a semicasual attracts a generally more attractive crowd to the frequenters of this site.  The people mostly have jobs or are young and intelligent.  The lack of innovation is all relative.  I don't really have any reason to continue, so.

[paradigm]

Unfortunately, from today's article by BB it seems as if he is more cynical than trying to provoke a thoughtful response from the type one community, unfortunately. Regardless of whether he is or is not, the manner does comes off as immature, which apparently is contagious on both sides.

Case in point:

You love me! You really, really love me! Thanks for all the words of encouragement - I'm sure that the Type One community will be thriving for years to come with well-wishers such as these!

and of course, what Zherbus said is also true

It seems your issues are more with his jibing at us then they are with a few questionable calls on card playability. We aren't that good. If there is one thing our format has, it is room for quite a bit of improvement.

Hopefully, if nothing else, this is a good kick in the pants for many type one players - not only to accelerate proper testing and new archetypes (not just off-the-top of one's head) but also with their playskill.