Crucible.dec

[Calibus]

Ok, try not to flame me too much here.  I am not much of a deckbuilder but I think that this may have potential.  I have been goldfishing it and making changes based on that but probably won't do any real testing until Workstation updates for 5D.  Any suggestions are welcome.  Here comes the list.

1x Strip Mine
4x Wasteland
4x Mishra's Factory
4x Bayou
4x Llanowar Wastes
4x Mishra's Workshop

1x Black Lotus
1x Mox Emerald
1x Mox Jet
4x Dark Ritual
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Mind Twist
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Entomb
1x Yawgmoth's Will
1x Null Rod
1x Fastbond
1x Crop Rotation
4x Tangle Wire
4x Crucible of Worlds
4x Duress
4x Trinisphere
4x Pernicious Deed
4x Tainted Pact

Playing first, a first turn Trinisphere followed by a second turn Crucible & Strip Mine is a lock.  Tangle Wires are there to slow your opponent down until you can get a recurring Strip Mine going and Deeds are there to take out any artifact mana that may be dropped early.

Tainted Pacts are the best Impulse type card I could think of for black/green but there may be a better option.  The Null Rod is basically another way to stop the artifact mana as well as something to be tutored up against Mindslaver.

Fastbond allows you to still get a lock later into the game by stripping multiple lands in one turn.

Mishra's Factories work as your kill condition and you don't worry about them being destroyed because of Crucible.

Thanks for looking.

JD

[SpencerForHire]

Plunge into Darkness is the better answer to replace tainted pact that you should be looking for, it also comes out in 5D.
I would recomend running spheres of resistance or Nether Void as well as trinisphere, it allows for the bigger stuff to be stalled as well.  Also, despite it being a pointless combo, it would still be just fine to run a Zuran Orb MD, it would allow for the extra threat to always be there.   You are only running 4 kill conditions, I would also run treetop village or troll ascetic.  
As it is though, you still just look like a strange version of Void Black, which doesn't work, you would need to splash blue to make this viable via the control route.

[Calibus]

Plunge into Darkness is the better answer to replace tainted pact that you should be looking for, it also comes out in 5D.

I considered Plunge into Darkness, but I think that Pact is better because I don't have to choose how many cards I want to look at beforehand.

I would recomend running spheres of resistance or Nether Void as well as trinisphere, it allows for the bigger stuff to be stalled as well.

 

I also considered Spheres but Trinisphere already stops the main thing I am interested in stopping which is the artifact mana.  I would hope to stop the higher casted stuff from coming out with mana denial

You are only running 4 kill conditions, I would also run treetop village or troll ascetic.

Four kill conditions is enough because Crucible allows them to be re-used.  I originally had Troll Ascetic as the kill condition but it takes up a slot where Factory can double as mana as well as come back from the yard.  I would rather use Treetop Village but the comes into play tapped ability is a real nuisance.

JD

[PucktheCat]

Why did you choose black-green?  The core of your deck is colorless, right?  Wouldn't it make sense to try to have The Good Color (tm) in there?

Could off-color moxen be better than Dark Ritual?

Leo

[SpencerForHire]

The reason 4 doesnt seem like enough is because your Crucibles could be hated out and you lose the ability to recur the Factories, Swords and such allow the removal of this kill condition from the game.  There is also the thought in mind that control will ruin you as it only has to counter 4 things to win, and it runs plenty of countermagic and artifact hate to do that, you want to get the kill conditions faster then you can be hated out.

[Calibus]

Why did you choose black-green?  The core of your deck is colorless, right?  Wouldn't it make sense to try to have The Good Color (tm) in there?

Could off-color moxen be better than Dark Ritual?

Leo

I picked black and green specifically for Deed, Crop Rotation, and tutors.  I considered adding blue but to do so I would have to add more mana sources.  I thought about switching green for blue, but I think that Deed is key to this deck.  Crop Rotation is another tutor and Fastbond for blowing a bunch of lands in one turn.

I don't think that off color moxen would be better in this case because I want the 3 mana explosion on turn 1.  Dark Rituals allow that explosion with one card.  With moxes I would need the land and two moxes.

[Calibus]

The reason 4 doesnt seem like enough is because your Crucibles could be hated out and you lose the ability to recur the Factories, Swords and such allow the removal of this kill condition from the game.  There is also the thought in mind that control will ruin you as it only has to counter 4 things to win, and it runs plenty of countermagic and artifact hate to do that, you want to get the kill conditions faster then you can be hated out.

Factories shouldn't die to Swords because I would not be activating them until they are in a lock except in emergency situations.

Playing first, a first turn Trinisphere really puts a dent into control.  It means that until turn three (assuming I don't strip anything), the only counter they have is Force of Will.  Plenty of copies of each card as well as tutors and Duress should allow me to force through a Crucible.

[PucktheCat]

I thought Deed was the decision card.  Tutoring, etc, is nice but probably not irreplaceable.

It is worth considering whether there is any way to make the deck work without Deed or with a third color, because the barrier for a deck to do well in T1 without [Brainstorm-Force of Will-Ancestral Recall-Time Walk] is much higher than for one with those ten cards.

Leo

[Calibus]

I thought Deed was the decision card.  Tutoring, etc, is nice but probably not irreplaceable.

It is worth considering whether there is any way to make the deck work without Deed or with a third color, because the barrier for a deck to do well in T1 without [Brainstorm-Force of Will-Ancestral Recall-Time Walk] is much higher than for one with those ten cards.

Leo

Duress works as a pre-emptive counterspell.  I thought about Explosive Engineers from 5D but the fact that it blows up equal to the exact amount of counters makes it less useful than Deed.  Deed works as my catch all for anything that snuck out before I lock them down.

[PucktheCat]

I understand all that.  I really do.

If I had a ready solution for you I would present it, as it is, I am just stating the obvious: those 10 cards so dramatically increase the consistency of a deck that you should take a long hard look at any way to include them you can find.  This deck is so colorless (and so desparate for the search that Brainstorm can provide) that is seems a real shame to give up Blue for one card.  It may be the only conclusion, but best to make sure it is any way you can.

Leo

[Bobduh]

Replace the Llanowar Wastes with Bloodstained Mires. They can be recurred through Crucible, and are just plain better in general.

[Razvan]

I wonder if this will work with Horn of Greed (Whenever a player plays a land, that player draws a card).

I am guessing it doesn't, since "play" is said to mean "play from your hand"... and the Crucible is "You may play lands from your graveyard as though they were in your hand"... or am I just smoking something bad today?

[Kowal]

How has nobody referenced Jaypee's quote yet?

Something along the lines of...
"If there's a poll to ask if something is viable, the answer is always no."

[cssamerican]

Horn of Greed
Whenever a player plays a land, that player draws a card.

Crucible of Worlds
You may play land cards from your graveyard as though they were in your hand.

So yes Horn of Greed will trigger when a land is Played from your graveyard; however, it wouldn't trigger by effects like that of Solemn Simulacrum in which the land is not played, but rather put into play.

[Lunk]

I believe Crucible has some nice potential in T1, but from my testing so far, it works better in a Turboland frame, with FoW backup.  Plus, then you can call your deck TurboCow, which is just cool    With only one Fastbond (no explorations), I think you're going to have some trouble thoroughly locking them down consistently, especially if they're playing basics, giving them the opportunity to work out of the lock and you without the FoW's to stop it. After a bit more testing I'll hopefully get a preliminary list up on here for discussion.

[Calibus]

I am currently working on moving stuff around to try incorporating blue instead of green.  I will post it once I flesh it out.

[paradigm]

edit: I confused this thread with another from SCG. Thus the information here is not as relevant to this deck as to other, more combo builds.

Because of the nature of the combo as attempted here - very forward minded and inconsistent, it cannot come down quickly with even a good hand (remove one 'o,' then we'll talk) and the "combo" does not directly win you the game barring jankier options like Ring which are dead otherwise.

At this time this would seem to be an intrinistically bad combo for that reason and this one: There's no reason to play this over Two-Land Belcher, Draw 7, or Dragon in a tournament setting - especially based on the lists that people have been churning out.

In addition such decks tend to be dependent on Mishra's Workshop and will have to abandon the combo once a threats begin to hit (i.e. Fish, Even a Tog/Dryad, Madness, etc), thus becoming better in theory than in practice. Deed is a slower option here.

It seems the more natural course of this card to be more of a utility card in decks like 4C that don't need to use it as a combo piece as shown here.

[Grand Inquisitor]

I'm not going to say anything about the viability of CoW in T1, but I think the deck you've layed out has some fundamental problems.

1) Lack of direction.  You've selected cards for the deck that push it either towards combo or towards a lock strategy, but its tough to tell how it really plays (I will also admit that I haven't played it, but some things you can just see from a list).

2) Anti-synergy.  Dark ritual is completely dead with trinisphere on the table.  Tainted Pact removes lands from the game, instead of dropping them in the yard where you want them.

3) Inconsistency.  I usually wouldn't make this comment without having played something, but conventional wisdom shows that workshop decks are incredibly inconsistent, and all recent innovations have incorporated some kind of fixer.  No, tainted pact isn't enough.

On top of this, is the fact that you're choosing not to run some of the more powerful cards in the format, and you have some questionable cards in their slot.  For example, I can see this deck needs a sweeper, but I don't see how pernicious deed plays such a critical role in this deck, and makes black and green the necessary colors for its base.  

Please let me know if I'm missing something here.

[Calibus]

I'm not going to say anything about the viability of CoW in T1, but I think the deck you've layed out has some fundamental problems.

1) Lack of direction.  You've selected cards for the deck that push it either towards combo or towards a lock strategy, but its tough to tell how it really plays (I will also admit that I haven't played it, but some things you can just see from a list).

2) Anti-synergy.  Dark ritual is completely dead with trinisphere on the table.  Tainted Pact removes lands from the game, instead of dropping them in the yard where you want them.

3) Inconsistency.  I usually wouldn't make this comment without having played something, but conventional wisdom shows that workshop decks are incredibly inconsistent, and all recent innovations have incorporated some kind of fixer.  No, tainted pact isn't enough.

On top of this, is the fact that you're choosing not to run some of the more powerful cards in the format, and you have some questionable cards in their slot.  For example, I can see this deck needs a sweeper, but I don't see how pernicious deed plays such a critical role in this deck, and makes black and green the necessary colors for its base.  

Please let me know if I'm missing something here.

I am working on changing some things around.  It is a work in progress.  The reason I chose Deed as the sweeper is because it is the most flexible.  I want something that will take out mana artifacts and stuff like Goblin Welder without blowing up my permanents.  The problem with the other sweepers is that either they blow up everything or only one casting cost at a time (Engineered Explosives, Powder Keg).  With Deed I can take them all out at once.

I am currently trying to add blue for some power and card drawing.  Dark Ritual and Pact are on the way out to make room.  Fastbond will be another casualty.

JD

[Calibus]

Because of the nature of the combo as attempted here - very forward minded and inconsistent, it cannot come down quickly with even a good hand (remove one 'o,' then we'll talk) and the "combo" does not directly win you the game barring jankier options like Ring which are dead otherwise.

At this time this would seem to be an intrinistically bad combo for that reason and this one: There's no reason to play this over Two-Land Belcher, Draw 7, or Dragon in a tournament setting - especially based on the lists that people have been churning out.

In addition such decks tend to be dependent on Mishra's Workshop and will have to abandon the combo once a threats begin to hit (i.e. Fish, Even a Tog/Dryad, Madness, etc), thus becoming better in theory than in practice. Deed is a slower option here.

It seems the more natural course of this card to be more of a utility card in decks like 4C that don't need to use it as a combo piece as shown here.

I don't think of this as a combo deck but more as a prison deck.  It obviously needs work but is something I believe could be viable with tuning.  I may be wrong but I want to put as much effort as possible into it before I drop it.

[paradigm]

I don't think of this as a combo deck but more as a prison deck.

My mistake there, I made the mistake of associating this with similar decks (totally combo) I saw on SCG and I confused the two. I have had frustration with people bent on getting combo builds to work, and have seen so many threads that they all seemed the same. Apologies.

Now that I'm on right topic, the problem then becomes, how is this deck more resiliant than Trinistax as opposed to incorporating Crucible (sans Fastbond) into Stax?

Playing first, a first turn Trinisphere followed by a second turn Crucible & Strip Mine is a lock.

It becomes very difficult to assure this - you're trying for a two-card combo opening hand, followed by another two-card combo the next turn. The key card here is Crucible. If that is stopped, the deck simply will not be able to win. This situation is theorhetical - what has testing shown about the consistency of the deck?

Not running off-color moxen is a strange choice here - particularly if the deck is bent on acceleration, especially since you cannot assure first turn Workshop and becomes more synergistic with a Trinisphere (played before obviously) as opposed to the one time boost - your next drops get accelerated as well which is absolutely essential to getting a prison lock down - you basically must play a spell every turn for the first few turns to ensure a complete lock. The idea is that if you drop a Trinisphere off a Ritual, you become as slowed as your opponent, and you want to maximize not only the speed in taking advantage of Sphere, but also the chance of a first turn three-drop.

Also the next comparison becomes how you take advantage of the lock. Stax uses the Trinisphere and Tangle Wires to slam down the Smokestack. The question becomes if Crucible is a better way to take advantage of a prison lock in a prison archetype - it has potential to be faster with Fastbond, however Smokestack also takes out lands in a similar manner, is in itself a single card, and hits all permanents (that fluxuates in its usefulness) plus has the utility of Goblin Welder behind it.

Jar would also seem a stronger way to dig for lock pieces / Crucible, and can deposite Wastes etc. Is the addition of Green primarily for Fastbond - Deed is an afterthought, worth dropping blue (Brainstorm, Force of Will, TFK (maybe), etc.)? In other words, this furthurs the suggestion that the closer the deck becomes to Trinistax, the better.

Duress may also prove to be counterproductive since you're trying to drop an artifact turn one, thereby minimizing the point. Although the one thing you must hit is Blood Moon by Slaver, FCG, and so forth, granted, I don't think Duress is the best way to handle this.

Crucible is an interesting card. However the ways to correctly use it are limited, so the logic behind my questions are to test ideas out to find the right one (if indeed there is one aside from utility in 4C - or even that).

[MrZuccinniHead]

I don't see the kill condition...

[paradigm]

I don't see the kill condition...

The kill in this build is Mishra's Factory, which, with a Crucible, can recur, although it will certainly be weaker should the Crucible not hit, or if Blood Moon does.

[Calibus]

Ok, I have reworked things somewhat and incorporated blue into the deck for more consistent draw.

4x Mishra's Workshop
4x Bayou
4x Underground Sea
3x Polluted Delta
4x Wasteland
1x Strip Mine
4x Mishra's Factory

1x Black Lotus
1x Mox Emerald
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Mox Pearl
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mox Jet
4x Crucible of Worlds
3x Tangle Wire
4x Trinisphere
4x Pernicious Deed
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Yawgmoth's Will
1x Crop Rotation
1x Ancestral Recall
4x Brainstorm
1x Time Walk
1x Mind Twist
4x Duress

This build seems to be a bit more consistent while goldfishing with the Brainstorms, off-color Moxen,  and Recall.

I really want to put Mana Crypt in here but I am scared off the drawback considering a win won't come very fast with this deck.

JD

[Marton]

OH my, this really needs a lot of reworking. Most important of all, your deck is so hell-bent on a few cards that must hit play that packing no disruption/protection makes the whole deck too easy to kill.

In your latest version, you failed to put 4x force of will...

How could you forget this? I can see you tried including the proposed blue standard cards, but everything is there except force of will.

Your deck will simply NOT WORK AT ALL versus *any* deck that's not disrupted by wasteland. You will HAVE to get a strip mine or a crop rotation, otherwise youre just as good as dead. Another important note, having 4 wasteland is essentially useless, since you dont want much more than 1 or 2 in the entire game. You have tutors should the worse happen, and brainstorms/polluted deltas. I would definately cut down to 2 or 3 wasteland. 2 crucible of worlds into play is just as useless, just as is trinisphere. I can understand that trinisphere is required in 4x because the deck doesn't work if you don't get one or get a pernicious deed. The biggest issue that I see is that this deck utterly crumbles in front of a deck packing basic lands / blood moon resistance. Of course, I don't need to mention that your deck is destroyed by a single blood moon, which is not all that rare in sidebords. Just as a crazy idea, since the deck is so unlikely to work versus basic lands (in my opinion), perhaps you could put the strip mine in sidebord and pack 4x living wish, essentially making it a 4x strip mine in the deck. Also, you cut down the fastbond ? I can see it isn't all that important *assuming* you do have a trinisphere lock established, but again, you're assuming something that shouldn't be assumed, particuliarily in a deck lacking counterspells.

This deck gets totally killed by graveyard hate and blood moon. Both are common sidebord strategies. Try and find a solution to this.

Here's a quick-fix suggestion for the latest posted list, which I feel compelled to add, will not make the deck any more tournament-viable, just more resilient.

4x Wasteland         ->   3x Wasteland
1x Vampiric Tutor   ->   1x Fastbond   (unsure on that one)
4x Duress              ->   4x Force of Will
4x Crucible of Worlds   ->   3x-4x ?
4x Trinisphere             ->   3x-4x ?

I just noticed there's no sol ring either. I just can't see how this deck can compete in the current metagame. I'm fairly convinced it requires a very very big makeover. Best luck.

-marton

[Gabethebabe]

29/36 say no in the POLL

That´s a pretty bad rating

[Wudil]

I won't help you very much as a friend of mine is already testing a deck with crucible inside of his build as I don't want to tell everyone what he choosed to put in but is deck isn't bad at all.

The core is:

Workshop
Wastelands
Stripmine
Crucible
3Sphere
Mishra's Factory

But his build is very different from yours after that and this is where it it really a good one. Just make more researchs and you could maybe find ideas that will cover the problems encountered by your build.

[Gabethebabe]

I won't help you very much as a friend of mine is already testing a deck with crucible inside of his build as I don't want to tell everyone what he choosed to put in but is deck isn't bad at all.

The core is:

Workshop
Wastelands
Stripmine
Crucible
3Sphere
Mishra's Factory

But his build is very different from yours after that and this is where it it really a good one. Just make more researchs and you could maybe find ideas that will cover the problems encountered by your build.

How very useful

[Kowal]

Wow.  Two completely worthless posts in a row.

Look guys, if you're going to try to build a (weak) combo deck based on Crucible, be my guest.  But, I have a couple suggestions.

1)  Jaypee mentioned this concept is basically unplayable, because trying to build a combo engine off this card is just not strong, at all.  The disruption element bogs down in the face of basics, and completely stalls out against moxen.  Also, like Suicide Black, you scoop to threats.
2)  Some people have this urge to 'innovate' by trying to break ideas the popular personalities have declared to be complete garbage.  While your intent to 'innovate' is a good thing, the concept needs a lot of work and is really nowhere near the state of development it should be in to be a presence in the open forums.  A thread of this nature should be in Newbie, not Open.

And to the two guys directly above me (Wudil and GabetheBabe as I'm writing this), please try to have some content in your posts.  Obviously I'm all for making fun of people when warranted, especially since ridicule is the only thing a lot of people understand (including random people who just happen to read it and laugh at the butt of the joke), but the above post was neither humorous, nor helpful to a newbie that needs the assistance.

[Erdrick]

This deck really wants to be Ug.  It should be based on the concepts presented in Control Slavery, Landstill, and Extended's TurboLand.  

I would pull the Workshops, the Tangle Wires, and all the Black. I would including such cards as:
[card]Force of Will[/card]: to protect the Combo.
[card]Mana Drain[/card]: to protect the Combo and help cast your spells.
[card]Intuition[/card]: to get the combo.
[card]Tinker[/card]: for the CoW.
[card]Sol Ring[/card]: for colorless mana.

Other possible cards to include:
[card]Accumulated Knowledge[/card]: as a draw engine (and it's good with Intuition).
[card]City of Traitors[/card]: for colorless mana.
[card]Fastbond[/card]: to get lands into play faster.
[card]Exploration[/card]: to get lands into play faster.