Skullclamp combo...

[rozetta]

Yes, I know this is extremely evil, but I have an excuse that I was bored at work today and just happened to go to the Brainburst website.

So, anyway, there's this list for a deck that looks a lot like ravager affinity, but instead uses Krark Klan Ironworks/Skullclamp abusively:

http://www.brainburst.com/db/article.asp?ID=4129

As noted in the article, this is a type 2 deck that goes off on turn 3/4. Not bad. Of course, we have to remember that type 2 doesn't have any permission right now (funny that wotc decided to create good opportunity for combo decks at the same time as removing any playable counterspells).

Anyway, what with BB's ranting about Type 1 not breaking skullclamp, this looks like the framework for a candidate, especially when considering the changes that could be made for a type 1 version.

If anything, it's has interesting observations about how Krark Clan Ironworks works.

Thoughts?

[Kowal]

So you're saying you want to port a slow and difficult to protect combo to a format in which Force of Will is the most highly played card, because Bleiweiss thought it was a good idea?  C'mon now.

That's pretty unhelpful, I know, but my input is that this project is doomed to failure.

[rozetta]

Firstly, I wasn't specifically advocating a direct port of this deck to type 1, but more using some of the ideas behind it. I think that should have been pretty obvious to anyone who read the whole five sentences.

My point was to try and illustrate that Krark Klan Ironworks might have some potential, and looking at how it's used in this relatively simple and, as you mentioned, fragile combo deck, the article might provoke some ideas on how to use it in Type 1. Food for thought, as it were.

Sooner or later someone, somewhere will test new cards and come up with decent new decks, even if it does mean going through iterations of testing "odd" ideas. Remember how Psychatog was originally dismissed? Madness? Affinity? By the way, if anyone has played against a decent type 1 ravager affinity with Disciple of the Vault, it's not a bad deck at all and can easily combo-kill with the disciple alone despite basically being an aggro deck. The example I linked to is only a further combo-extension of that deck.

I just wanted to put that link out there as a catalyst to discuss possibilities of using some of these new cards. I think these sort of five-second responses and knee-jerk reactions, are exactly why people comment about our community's lack of willingness to innovate.

Sorry that this post turned into a rant, but I see this behaviour all too often and it's highly frustrating.

[Kowal]

There's a reason for that 'knee-jerk reaction.'  If you're trying to assemble a combo that flimsy in this format, it better win you the game.  There's no point wasting your resources on stuff like that (especially since you're also giving youself potential dead draws off your own combo) when you could be expending your resources winning the game.  Using the Ravager example, why try to fit something that unwieldy, when you could just burninate somoene's face with disciple for nine and then swing for lethal with ravager?

[rozetta]

Agreed, the type 2 version is a flimsy combo. Like I said, it exists because the format has no permission.

I was actually trying to get some discussion on whether it's possible to abuse Krark Klan Ironworks - perhaps in a similar way to how, say, Helm of Awakening used to be used. Okay it's a year or two since that was viable, but the effect is mildly similar, but this time, not symmetrical.

4 mana is feasable in a combo deck, especially if all your artifacts suddenly make 2 more mana (including KKI after you're done with it, making it a net 2 mana investment). Combo decks which twister a lot or  cast yawgwill could, for instance, use this extra mana quite effectively.

I see it not as a 4-of sort of card that you'd build a deck around, but something to aid existing combo strategies the turn they go off. It also mildly interests me because I've actually been working on a combo deck which uses workshops and a decent amount of artifacts, with thoughtcasts as part of the supporting engine. It's actually pretty damn good and it's still just a concept.

Anyway, time will tell if this card has possibilities. Although it seems a little clunky, it is, after all,  a decent mana accelerant in a deck running enough artifacts and when you consider that any artifact which costs 2 or less will be free or even generate extra mana when this is on the table, it has to incite some sort of creative thoughts?

[theorigamist]

There's a very compelling reason not to use Ironworks: Ashnod's Altar still exists.  If you're planning on sacrificing Myr Retrievers for infinite mana, Altar is strictly better.  Is costing one extra mana and not being as neatly compatible with Workshop really worth it for the additional ability to sacrifice extra Moxen?  That's basically all Ironworks does that Ashnod's Altar doesn't.  (Before somebody mentions artfact lands as well, keep in mind that if you have a significant number of these out by the time you're comboing off, then your combo deck is far too slow.)

[martyr]

Ironworks also allows you to get double duty out of your accelerators (mana vault; crypt, moxes, etc).

I like Ironworks a lot and think it has a lot of potential in T1. Something that can produce that much mana...it's just so stupid!

[theorigamist]

Actually, I'm going to eat my words in a huge way.  A few minutes after I posted that, I stopped to think about it and I realized another plus for Ironworks: it's not useless in multiples because it sacrifices itself.  It still costs one more, which means only very rare first turn drops (which I hate about it).  So while I still think Ashnod's Altar is slightly better, I no longer believe it is strictly better.

[Celandro]

Ironworks generates a ton of mana and turns all 0 cost artifacts into dark rituals, and moxes into black lotuses. It also turns out to be an excellent way to kill off creatures that have been skullclamped.

Heres a really quick build:
creatures (18)
3 Disciple of the Vault
4 Frogmite
3 Myr Moonvessel
4 Myr Retriever
4 Ornithopter

combo (8)
4 Krark-Clan Ironworks
4 Skullclamp

broken stuff (10)
1 ancestral
1 time walk
1 tinker
1 jar
1 demonic tutor
1 vampiric tutor
1 yawg will
1 necro
1 bargain
1 tendrils

Mana: (24)
5 mox
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 black lotus
4 dark ritual
4 pentad prysm
4 glimmervoid
4 Mishras Workshop

No disruption or anything, just something I threw together as quick as I could before a meeting at work

[Roxas]

Goblin Charbelcher decks have proven to be incredibly fast, but are not widely played because of the existance of Null Rod.  Ironworks decks (at least the ones suggested so far) are slower than Belcher and have two pieces that can be shut down by Null Rod, as well as destroyed by other artifact hate.

Convince me that a deck centered around Ironworks can somehow be better than Belcher, and I'll start listening.  Good luck.

[rmn]

I thought we already broke Skullclamp:

http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=17520

[/shameless]

If you check out today's Wizards article, it might provide a little inspiration:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/mg125

[Katzby]

Seeing that Krark-Clan Ironworks is broken is simplicity in itself. To start with, the card is a flat-out more powerful version of Squandered Resources, a card that was banned in every non-Vintage constructed format it was ever legal in.

I suppose it's somewhat minor, but this is way wrong.  The ONLY format that Squandered Resources was ever banned in was Mirage block constructed.  Lazy fact-checkers.


Katzby

[rozetta]

Actually, I probably made the title of the thread a little wrong. On reflection, the title should have been something to do with Krark-Clan Ironworks. Although the combo with skullclamp + crappy small creature is fun looking, what we're really after here is abusing the Ironworks. To this end, Ashnod's Altar is not really relevant, since the Ironworks is not dead if there are no creatures around. What we want to do it abuse the most synergistic low-cost artifacts and the Ironworks to create some sort of interesting combo engine. The interaction with moxes/crypt/sol ring and so on is a given. What we should also look at are other low-cost (1 or 2 mana) artifacts which would help. Examples include Candelabra of Tawnos and Voltaic Key.

<tangent>

As a brief aside, let's take a quick example of how Ironworks is used in Type 2 (not that I know anything about Type 2)

The reason why skullclamp is being used in the type 2 versions is that, it's a 1 mana artifact that draws you cards and will net you 1 mana when you eventually sac it. Note the following example of a simple interaction with ornithopter:

Ironworks in play.
Spend 1 to cast skullclamp
Spend 0 for ornithopter
Spend 1 to clamp the ornithopter
Sac ornithopter for 2 mana, draw 2 cards
... continue as long as you have mana and cheap artifact creatures ...
Sac skullclamp for 2 mana
Use the several mana you netted for some effect which you drew into

As you can see, even from this simple type 2 example (and I know basically nothing about type 2) that the effect is rather powerful, since it's a chain reaction which has the possibility of drawing many cards and producing a decent amount of mana. As an additional benefit, with the disciple in play it's a constant stream of life loss for the opponent.

</tangent>

Now, I'm not suggesting we use skullclamp at all. Okay, it's actually an interesting effect to abuse, but it suggests playing small, crappy creatures.  Additionally, although the retreiver/ironworks combo works in type 2, it's not something that's likely to be viable in Type 1. What we need to do is just consider what can be done with the abilitys provided by Ironworks given the Type 1 card pool.

Whilst Belcher is a fast deck, we don't have a deck using Ironworks, so we have nothing to compare speeds. Additionally for those who are willing to plainly write the whole discussion off with an insightful and productive 2-liner post about how it's not going to work, it's a given that any combo deck revolving around artifacts is going to be shut down by null rod. Why would people even bother unless they have a plan for that? I mean, null rods are everywhere right now and it's not like there aren't reasonable ways to deal with them (CotV for 2, Chain of Vapor, FoW to name just 3 involving cards which are useful in their own right).

Off the top of my head, Ironworks could be used in some way to rebuild an Academy-style deck from a few years ago. The old deck list itself would require a significant overhaul but it seems like one possible starting point. I'll give it some consideration and work on a list when I have a moment.

[Ephraim]

Just a brief note - if you want to use both Skullclamp and Krark-Clan Ironworks, then you can't use just any crappy, small creatures - only ones that survive the Skullclamp and are artifacts, so that they can be usefully sacrificed to the Ironworks. Ornithopter's a good start, but what else is there? Phyrexian Walker, maybe. Clockwork Beetle? I don't think the list is very extensive.

[rozetta]

True. Isn't there also one more 0-cost artifact creature? Shield Sphere or something of that ilk. I remember it was used very briefly in some TnT builds as a welder target.

[OPColby]

I've been fooling around with the Type 2 deck now for quite some time.

(I don't have a type 2 deck, and where I play is almost exclusive type 2, so I figured I might as well start.)

I _can_ go off 3rd turn, but I need an absolute nut draw, with a Talisman, a Disciple, TWO Myr Retrievers, a KC Ironworks, two lands, with one drawn.

Skullclamp just helps to accelerate you to that point.

My deck is completely based around the combo with no disruption (like echoing truth or ruin) maindecked.

I'm still experimenting with steelshaper's gift.  Right now I don't have any white artifact lands in, and I only run 16 lands, because once you start going off, it SUCKS to draw land.  Although, I find myself mana screwed more than going off screwed, so I will probably take out all the Great Furnaces and put in 4 Ancient Dens for Steelshapers Gifts.

28 creatures (
4 Disciple of the Vault
4 Ornithopter
4 Myr Moonvessel
4 Arcbound Worker (Skullclamp targets are essential in this build)
4 Myr Retriever
4 Frogmite
4 Myr Enforcer (these are good double-skullclamped, then sac to the KC)

4 combo
4 Krark-Clan Ironworks

4 draw
4 Skullclamp

8 additional mana/search
2 Thoughtcast (I'll test out steelshaper's gift in it's place)
2 Fabricate (gets you the KC ironworks third turn if you don't have it)
4 Talisman of Dominance (essential for putting down a disciple when going off)

16 mana
4 Great Furnace (soon to be Ancient Dens, probably)
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Vault of Whispers

15 Sideboard:
4 Echoing Ruin
4 Echoing Truth (return disciples to owner's hands)
4 Great Furnace (putting in Echoing Ruin)
3 ?


I go off fifth turn almost religiously.  Fourth turn can be done as well, by putting down a talisman second turn and using a fabricate or skullclamp etc to draw into the KC ironworks second/third turn.

A deck that goes off in four turns isn't too shabby in type 2.  Especially when you have WELL over enough blockers to hold everything dormant (aside maybe tooth and nail or something).

Ravager can't touch you, because you have disciples too.

We have disruption in type 1, faster sources of mana (so we're nearly never screwed mana-wise like I am sometimes in type 2,) etc etc.

This can be a very viable deck with no restrictions.

I'll do some testing and tell you guys what I find.

[After testing 100 games solo]

I really thought Steelshaper's Gift would come in handy more often.  It doesn't.

In fact, it sucks.  I lose way too much time getting the skullclamp and losing a dead card when usually, I could just cast Thoughtcast and get it by doing that.  I don't have a Talisman that can get a white mana out, (which often times I use my talisman of dominance for blue to cast thoughtcast because I don't have a seat of the synod out)

I'm going to revert back to Thoughtcast.

However, I'm probably going to rotate out 1 Myr Enforcer and 1 Arcbound Worker for two lands.  (Which will be Ancient Dens.)

[Roxas]

I tried building a Tendrils-based deck using the Ironworks.  It was useful about half the time I drew it - almost always when I could totally abuse it in conjuction with Yawgmoth's Will.  Here's the list I used, in case someone wants to work off it.  If someone can find a way to squeeze four Force of Will in, it might even be somewhat viable.  (It might be one or two cards off, too.)

4 Krark-Clan Ironworks
4 Chromatic Sphere
1 Fastbond
1 Crop Rotation

4 Brainstorm
4 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Necropotence
1 Mind's Desire
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Windfall
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Tinker
1 Memory Jar
1 Time Walk
1 Timetwister

2 Tendrils of Agony

4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Glimmervoid
4 Dark Ritual
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
1 Lotus Petal
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring

I still don't think it's better than draw7.dec or existing Belcher, but if you want to spend more time on it, go right ahead.

[paradigm]

I still don't think it's better than draw7.dec or existing Belcher, but if you want to spend more time on it, go right ahead.

Actually, don't.

If this is not as fast as Draw7.dec or Belcher.dec and does not have the consistency of Dragon.dec, (which this is not, and does not seem to have the potential to be) then why develop it furthur if there are better options in combo?

The idea of the Ironworks is to generate mana, but it lacks the speed of going for storm + Tendrils. If it cannot match that speed, there's really no point pursuing it.

If this is meant to be a budget option - since one could conceivably build it from the type two skeleton, put it in the right forum (although 2/3 of the posted lists are not it could be an option there), otherwise, why spend valuable testing time on a sub-par idea? Innovation is good, but the idea of creating new decks is to create new tier ones (or twos - although ones are certainly more prefered).

[Alfred]

The good thing about using the skullclamp oriented combo is that myr retriever, when sacrificed can bring back a disrupted combo-peice.

EDIT: I think this deck should be titled "Krark of Shit".

[Fastbond]

4 Krark-Clan Ironworks
4 Chromatic Sphere
1 Fastbond
1 Crop Rotation

4 Brainstorm
4 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Necropotence
1 Mind's Desire
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Windfall
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Tinker
1 Memory Jar
1 Time Walk
1 Timetwister

2 Tendrils of Agony

4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Glimmervoid
4 Dark Ritual
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
1 Lotus Petal
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring

Slow enough to be vulnerable to hate.  Too many nonland sources increase the need to mulligan and also make mulliganing hurt alot more.  You need a very specific combination of cards to be able to cast a draw spell first turn.  You need several of these cards.  Mulliganing means you won't have enough cards to generate the mana.  Topdecking the deck will be bad.  You'll topdeck an uncastable spell too often or you'll topdeck mana acceleration.  

There are no possible changes that'll make the deck viable other than printing new cards or unrestricting old ones or rules changes.   Adding other acceleration will only amplify the mulligan problems and other card draw won't draw enough mana to keep going.

[Roxas]

That's why I said it wasn't better than draw7 or Belcher

[rozetta]

I haven't got a list to post, since I like to do some testing against established archetypes before committing anything here. I'd venture to say that the lists i've seen so far are on the wrong tracks; think: if ironworks nets you colourless mana, come up with ideas which use that for starters, Okay, I may or may not have the new long here, but it's worth poking around with the cards to see if it's viable...

Bottom line: suggestions of useful card interactions with Type 1 in mind are 1000 times better than untested deck lists which you goldfished in Apprentice for 30 minutes. Additionally, belcher.dec is an almost guaranteed turn 2 kill if you goldfish. If your deck is not at least as good (and I'm talking about a substantial amount of samples, like 500), then tune it. However, thanks for the lists so far, and don't let this discourage you.

[Tempe]

I'd just like to say that with Belcher as the Benchmark, and it being almost impossible to beat it in speed, you'll have to add some defense. Almost clearly that means 4 Force of Will and 12 other blue cards to support it. Thoughts are 4 [card]Thoughtcast[/card], 4 Brainstorm, Ancestral Recall, Timetwister, Time Walk, and Tinker.

--Tempe