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Author Topic: [single card discussion] Krark-Clan Ironworks  (Read 4728 times)
Kasuras
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« on: May 30, 2004, 08:57:36 am »

INTRO

I am playing combo for about a year now, and I'm very happy playing it. It first started with a budget version of neo-academy which I changed to tendrils when scourge came out. I pulled the deck apart when mirrodin came out because all of my metagame was playing type two and I was going to play it too back then. I started playing atog sligh for the interested under you. Then I started with suicide because I didn't like type two, which changed when darksteel came out when I began again with atog sligh. And again I changed to suicide.

But then a month ago or so, I saw the deck Jos Schreurs played in the dutch city of Eindhoven. Belcher was its name, and I decided to play it too; in a budget version that is. And I'm still playing the deck in its budget version and still having fun with it. I have also had some very positive feedback on my list and some people netdecked it too, which i was very flattered with.

For reference:
http://www.morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=139 - Jos Schreurs' list. (8th)
http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=17272 - My list.

Well, so far my history of playing combo. What does this have to do with this thread? Well, playing combo made me taking a better look at spoiler lists for cards that may fit in _good_ combo decks. And when I saw the fifth dawn list, a very cool card caught my eye. And it must have been seen as a good card by others too.


THE CARD, 1.0: THE CARD

http://mi.wizards.com/global/images/magic/general/krark_clan_ironworks.jpg

The card text:

Krark-Clan Ironworks - 4
Artifact - U
Sacrifice an artifact: Add 2 to your mana pool
All the junk, refuse, and offal of the Krark Clan is diligently collected, melted down, and made into more junk, refuse, and offal.
Tim Hildebrandt


THE CARD, 1.1: ANALYSING THE CARD

When you see the card, the first other card that springs to mind is metalworker or Ashnod's Altar. And those are just the two cards the Ironworks should overpower to be truly played in type one, however I will come to that later on.

So how can this card be used? Well, by sacrificing artifacts obviously. However, you do want to get extra benefit out of those cards. So those cards must give more mana than they cost when sacrificed, must produce 1 mana less than it costs so you will gain additional mana out of it or must do something very good when put into the graveyard.

That leaves us the following list to work with.
-Moxen, lotus, mana vault, mana crypt, etc. The usual mana producers used by combo decks.
-All artifacts that cost less than 2 mana so the ironworks will give more mana than it had cost. Some examples: ornithopter, the mirrodin spellbombs, aether vial and black vise for instance.
-Every random creature equiped with skullclamp, su-chi, myr moonvessel, myr retriever, myr servitor, etc.

I find this list good enough to work with.

Well, over to in what occasions this card is better than ashnod's altar and metalworker.

Ashnod's altar is better when working with creatures, since the card is one mana less. However, we _do_ live in type one after all. So that means we have moxen to sacrifice too when not needed. However, the difference in mana cost is quite important, since mishra's workshop gives three mana , and that is exactly the altar's casting cost.

However, in what occasions will you play the altar in turn one _and_ need it too? I cannot recall any, since you already have used your mana. Casting a turn one metalworker with the help of a mox is much more beneficial, unless you are playing combo just like Menno Rieff with the altar did in Eindhoven. However, in all other occasions and probably also in Menno's occasion: even with the difference of one mana, ironworks is better.

But now the other card: metalworker. Are the ironworks better than metalworker? No, I do not think so.

Metalworker works better in almost all scenarios. Why? Because the current artifact decks are mostly prison decks, and you need to have the prison as fast as possible. Casting a turn one metalworker will almost always result in having your hand on the table in turn two. The other group of artifact based decks is aggro, based around arcbound ravager. This deck however needs to have lots of things on the table in turn one, and therefore metalworker is not sufficient in the deck. Does ironworks work in this deck then? Well, not in the current versions, where all spells must be three mana or else do something realy, realy good. Allas, the ironworks are not that good, so a new version which has more mana available on turn one must be made to let ironworks function properly. Does that mean metalworker or none of these two cards is better than playing ironworks in all decks? No, first of all I name combo. Combo has at most of the time enough mana to make good use of ironworks or the worker. However, the worker has summoning sickness, and you want to play your hand down as fast as possible. Therefore: metalworker is a dead card in combo. The ironworks could function in these combo decks.


THE CROSSROADS, 2.0: INTRO

But, before creating a deck: the kill method must be known first. Since the decks will differ quite much in land count, card choices, etc. And this is all defined by the kill method, because that is what you are trying to work to after all. Here are some kill methods used by popular decks which could be used

-Braingeyser and Stroke of Genius
-Tendrils of Agony
-Goblin Charbelcher
-Kaervek's Torch
-Mindslaver and Pentavite Tokens
-Arcbound Ravager and his friends
-Phyrexian Dreadnought
-Juggernaut and Karn, Silver Golem


THE CROSSROADS, 2.1: ANALYSING THE KILL CONDITIONS

Let's start with the geyser and the stroke. Well, not much can be said about these two, they need about fifty three mana to kill the opponent whilst a card such as the Torch only needs 20. Second: just a simple force of will to counter the torch isn't enough. Turn one kills can be made without having to care about FoW countering your kill method. The only advantage of geyser and stroke is that they work together with Force of Will. Only good if you realy need the blue spells for supporting FoW, otherwise the other cards will do just fine.

The second card is tendrils, used in a very popular combo deck called The Perfect Storm and also in DrawSeven. It is also used sometimes in belcher as a fifth kill condition. The deck would need a lot of low mana cost spells to work properly, it would also need more artifacts to work since the current builds don't support a artifact count high enough to abuse the ironworks.

Third in line is the charbelcher. It is currently used in a build which runs two lands and abuses land grant to get these two lands and then just kill when not revealing any lands. It also runs things like Tinder Wall to get as much mana as possible and not using lands. If you want the ultimate fast mana deck, try belcher. The ironworks would fit perfect in this deck if it wasn't for the high count of non-artifact spells, this is however change-able by putting in more artifacts, if build good enough: I am convinced it is just as viable as the belcher list with less artifacts. However, one problem arises: null rod. The list with less artifacts already has a tough job versus null rod, but the coming list will have even more. But isn't null rod just the card that says to all combo players "scoop you!". Or more accurate said: even with less artifacts, belcher loses to null rod. So does it matter if you have more artifacts? I think not.

And fourth in the list: mindslaver and its friends. Does the ironworks work in this list? No, I do not think so. The deck does not have enough artifacts to support the card. Second: metalworker would work better in this deck, and as said: in occasions where metalworker can be played, ironworks is not needed.

I will analyse the last three in line in once since they all kill with creatures. First off: ravager. I will not analyse this deck because all is said already about this deck; it doesn't fit in the current build, if it wants to run ironworks, it needs to change. If ironworks is good enough to change the deck? I'm not sure about that, but my current opinion is that the current raffinity build is better than one with ironworks. Second: dreadnought. Played in just a few deck which almost all look the same; full english breakfast and vengeur masque. They all work with getting the dreadnought, and other creatures too, into play without getting the drawback. They both work with Volrath's Shapeshifter but the second has the, more expensive, illusionary mask. Could the ironworks be played in the current builds? No, I don't think so since they don't have enough artifacts to tinker around with. Changing the builds could be a good idea, however: they would have to change from multicolor to one or two colors. Else the mana base will not be solid enough for a deck as this one, I would recommend either mono blue, mono black or a black and blue list. And the last of the kill conditions: juggernaut and karn. These two cards are played in Tools 'n Tubbies, some stacker builds and lots of mud runs it too. TnT wouldn't work because is doesn't have enough artifacts to work with, and doesn't want to change just for ironworks since it relies on bringing back fatties with goblin welder. Stacker and mud already have metalworker, and as said: no ironworks are necessary then.

This brings us the conclusion:

-Neo-Academy with either stroke and geyser or torch, perhaps sideboard stroke for wishing.
-TPS with more artifacts
-Belcher with more artifacts
-Vengeur Masque with more artifacts
-Menno Rieff's combo deck, revised

However, perhaps the card has such potential that it could make its own deck with a new kill condition that doesn't look like one of these builds run. I don't think this card is able to do that, since the best kill conditions are already summed up.


ANALYSING THE BROKENNESS, 3.0: THE LOGS OF DOOM

So after writing the things before, I made a deck in apprentice around the ironworks card and I was just stunned by the results.

These logs are from the first game I tried the deck, and I took no mulligan.

Irritating log removed.  Things like this are unnecessary.  I suggest in the future you merely add in your new threads that you have logs one can look at, and if somebody wants them that they can PM you for it.  Most of us, however, find things such as this to be no more than an eyesore.[/color]


ANALYSING THE BROKENNESS, 3.0: ANALYSING THE LOGS

As you can see, I killed during goldfishing in turn 1: however: this was just the first game! That means I just put together some cards and played.

Taken that I am a dutch scrub who has never played any tournament, these are just good results isn't it?

Well, I tried the deck against some other decks because goldfishing a deck just isn't sufficient. And you might have guessed: the deck dies to anything with 4 fow and 4 mana drain, and has a very tough matchup versus any deck with null rod. And yes, that _is_ the whole metagame.

However, after testing with all the previously named decks: I couldn't get it to beat those other decks.

Does that mean the card is not good enough for tournament play? Hell no! Just because a dutch scrub like me without a team or cards to test the deck real good with is not able to break the card, doesn't mean no one can! Smile

So therefore I am handing the TMD public these testing results. I hope someone will be able to break the card.

For decklists I have recently come up with, with ironworks as the center of it off course, just pm me.

Well, so far my second thread on TMD. I hope you found it a good read.

This was a well written article, sans the apprentice logs and a couple grammatical mistakes.  It's a shame there were so many poor posts that followed.[/color]
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The Hamburgler
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« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2004, 09:15:20 am »

Completely worthless post removed.
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« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2004, 09:17:59 am »

Ironworks probably has good uses in Belcher (or [card]Myr Incubator[/card] with artifact lands) and in a new combo deck with Skullclamp. Can we get a decklist for what you were using? (If you don't want to post it, could you PM me?)

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Kasuras
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« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2004, 09:50:00 am »

The Hamburgler:

Of course it is an option to play dragon, and of course you could play a good deck instead of innovating. But that's not what it's all about in type one. If no one ever tried to make a new deck, we would still be stuck with suicide and keeper that kills with serra angels.

I also wonder if you actually read the article since I wrote about one microsoft word page about Null Rod. I know the card exists, and I know that the card has weaknesses. It would be bloody broken if it didn't.

Tempe:

That's a pretty good one.  You just remove the lands for the myr incubator whilst not having mana screw on turn one because you have enough lands in hand. I think that idea deserves some testing.

I'd might as well post the decklists I've come up with so far. If I think of anything else or finally break the card, I guess I'll just edit it.

Neo-Academy

1 Tolarian Academy
4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Helm of Awakening
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Sol Ring
1 Grim Monolith
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Chrome Mox
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
4 Chromatic Sphere
4 Krark-Clan Ironworks
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Tinder Wall
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Memory Jar
1 Tinker
1 Windfall
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Timetwister
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Meditate
4 Brainstorm
2 Kaervek's Torch

This is the list from which the logs are taken.

Suicide

4 Mishra's Workshop
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Strip Mine
2 Swamp
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Helm of Awakening
4 Krark-Clan Ironworks
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mana Crypt
1 Lotus Petal
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
4 Dark Ritual
1 Memory Jar
4 Skullclamp
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Myr Moonvessel
4 Myr Retriever
4 Genesis Chamber
4 Disciple of the Vault

This is a list I've been working on this morning. I don't know if it's good, but some changes can be made later on.


However, this is a thread about the card itself, so please do not go flaming about the lists.  This thread is not intended to talk about specific lists.

Edit: Changed some strange code that popped up and some sentences so they were correctly written. (Broke = Break)

Apparently the above edit was not enough.  I made some clarity edits of my own.
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« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2004, 10:03:31 am »

Quote
Of course it is an option to play dragon, and of course you could play a good deck instead of innovating. But that's not what it's all about in type one. If no one ever tried to make a new deck, we were still stuck with suicide and keeper which kills with serra angels.

OW. MY TONGUE.
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« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2004, 10:35:19 am »

Quote
Of course it is an option to play dragon, and of course you could play a good deck instead of innovating. But that's not what it's all about in type one. If no one ever tried to make a new deck, we were still stuck with suicide and keeper which kills with serra angels.


Please read the following articles:

http://www.sirlin.net/Features/feature_PlayToWinPart1.htm

http://www.sirlin.net/Features/feature_PlayToWinPart2.htm

http://www.sirlin.net/Features/feature_PlayToWinPart3.htm
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« Reply #6 on: May 30, 2004, 10:41:04 am »

In defence of Kasuras: that was not his point. He's not saying he isn't playing to win. He just says that he likes to try and be innovative instead of netdecking. While you could definitely argue whether that's a good thing or not (i.e. a smart thing if you want the highest possible chance of winning a given tournament) , the articles you just linked to have no bearing on the subject at hand.

While they OUTCOME may be losing, this is certainly not his INTENT.

Bram, shame on you mispelling 'whether.'  Razz
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Kasuras
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« Reply #7 on: May 30, 2004, 10:58:53 am »

Thanks Rebel428, those links were very funny to read and actually helped me as much as "The Way of the Sideboard" did. And that is meant seriously.

About the netdeck part: I play 2-land belcher and played suicide, as said in the intro. I think that says enough about me.

But you are forgetting one part:  This is a new card and results from big tournaments or highly ranked teams are not yet public. The card is not even tournament legal yet.

I am convinced this cards requires testing, and if the reader of this thread is going to test the Ironworks for himself, the mission of this thread is accomplished.

And by the way:  Testing never, ever hurt anyone.

Sentence that made no sense completely removed.  You use too many colons.
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« Reply #8 on: May 30, 2004, 11:01:11 am »

After discussion a with a few people, I've come to the conclusion that the best way to utilize Ironworks is to recur as much of what is sacrificed as possible.  A possible kill would include disciple.
Something like:
[card]Yawgmoths Will[/card]
- and - or -
[card]Second Sunrise[/card]
- and - or-
[card]Roar of Reclamation[/card]
should be used.
Although the double white is difficult to accomodate, this could well be the next use for white in a deck.
I was just thinking on the matter, and with an Ironworks in play a Reclamation would be easy to crop as long as the double white is accessable.

Possibly a build like:
-White
1 Balance
2 Decree of Justice
3 Second Sunrise
2 Roar of Reclamation

-Black
1 Yawgmoth's Will
3 Disciple of the Vault

-Brown
3 Arcbound Ravager
1 Mindslaver

-Blue
4 Force of Will
3 Brainstorm
2 Artificers Intuition
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
2 Intuition
4 Deep Analysis/Accumulated Knowledge

-Manabase
4 Krark Clan Ironworks
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
5 Moxen
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
4 Scrubland
1 Plains
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
2 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy

This build would put all that nice mana to use with plenty of recurring and ways to dump more artifacts into the yard.  An uncounterable kill condition (Decree of Justice of course) on top of that and the ability to combo completely out on someone's EoT (Second Sunrise) makes this pretty lethal.  Originally just a BW build, I decided there would be too much complaining if I didn't put in blue, and I'm glad I did.  Blue adds so much to the original build that I want it to stay.  Artificer's Intuition allows a whole bunch of dumping.  Intuition does as well and puts you in a position with more draw and a beautiful engine.
The minor control aspects in Balance and 4 FoW allow it to hold its own the turn or two it needs to go off.  Balance at any time does almost nothing to this deck as it runs so few creatures and actual land in comparison to most decks you'll be running against.
Edited to include another Time Walk (Mindslaver)

Edited to make you spell Time Walk correctly.  I also edited it to make you spell a bunch of other stuff correctly, and fix your grammar.  Let's also not forget the addition of the card being discussed to your list.
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Kasuras
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« Reply #9 on: May 30, 2004, 02:02:10 pm »

Gimbles:

I certainly like your deck, even more than my own versions to be honest. I think you've gone the right way for making the control version of the deck.

I definitely like the Decree of Justice.  I just can't see why I didn't think of that one.

However, I do have some questions regarding your list:

-5 recurring spells. Doesn't that seem like a bit much? I think 4 would do the job too since you are running a lot of drawing. Perhaps 4 Sunrise and 1 rRoar; the Roar has a bit too high a mana cost for playing 2 copies.

-Arcbound Ravager seems a bit out of place. You are playing a control deck; what do these aggro cards do here then? I don't think you are playing enough artifacts to afford running them both. I don't think these should be included, however I couldn't find a good replacement since the card must be relatively cheap, an artifact itself, and must be able to sacrifice artifacts too.  The only other option I could find was Grinding Station.  Perhaps that's just the card you are looking for since it works very nice in the theme of the deck.

-2 Artificer's Intuition seems a bit low. On the other hand, you _are_ running a lot of drawing spells so I'm not sure about the right count.  You might want to add another copy of it.

-4 Deep Analysis/Accumulated Knowledge:  Why aren't you replacing these with Thirst for Knowledge? That one seems a lot better to me.

Your mana base looks pretty good. However, you do not run workshops, which is probably because of the high non-artifact count. But that does mean you have a place for Mana Drains. Perhaps you could replace the FoWs with Mana Drains and thereby play more artifacts for the Ironworks too. Mana Drains help you with getting lots of mana for the Decree, as well.

Some problems may arise with removing the FoWs; your matchup versus combo is weakened since you just lose if they kill you on turn one. Therefore I'm not really sure if replacing the FoWs is a good idea.  On one hand it speeds up the combo, but on the other you may not have UU on turn one or two and you can't do anything against a combo player killing you on turn one.

I guess the FoW/Mana Drain choice requires advanced playtesting with a list which is discussed a lot and is already played by a lot of players. This is a bit similar to the Deed/Wish discussion in Hulk. (Perhaps a bad comparision, but it's about how advanced the deck already must be, not about how good the deck is.)

But as I said, I really like your list and sincerely think this one deserves further testing.

Highly edited for syntax, grammar, and spelling.
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« Reply #10 on: May 30, 2004, 02:29:48 pm »

I think the way you are approaching an Ironworks combo deck is flawed.  Instead of building a combo deck around Ironworks, you are actually sticking Ironworks in to other combo decks.  The reason I believe this is a problem is that I think Ironworks is a win-more card (in this situation).  You initially have to spend 4 mana to cast Ironworks.  I think this 4 mana would be better spent drawing cards, rather than gaining mana.  Another point to be made is that Ironworks only produces colorless mana, and most combo decks have a greater need for colored mana.  So do you really want to spend 4 colored mana to create colorless mana you don't need?

Combo decks of this time period should focus on easy one card combos for kills (such as Belcher or Tendrils) because testing has shown that these decks are much more efficient than the older multiple card kills.  So rather than spend 4 mana on a card that will produce more colorless mana, wouldn't you rather just draw more cards, lay some artifacts, and win?

That being said I do think that a combo deck can be made from Ironworks.  This combo deck is going to need to be built around the card and will look more like an affinity deck, killing with disciple or large artifact creatures.  I think Gimbles is more on the right track.

Cleaned this up a bit.
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« Reply #11 on: May 30, 2004, 05:55:16 pm »

The reasoning behind running Ravager was so you could combo off even if you didnt have an Ironworks.  I agree on the matter of TFK; this would grant room for more artifacts, possibly some Myr Retrievers, possibly a few light lock components or something along that line.  Retrievers allow for multiple ways to combo off so the 6 slots granted from removing Intuition and the four draw spells could be changed to 2 retrievers and 4 TFKs.
There we go.  Thanks for the input.  On the side of Artificer's Intuition, it's an additional engine I didnt want the deck to run around it so 2 seemed just fine for me.

Edited for clarity.
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« Reply #12 on: May 30, 2004, 08:07:53 pm »

Comments about the Neo-Academy list:
-Bazaar of Baghdad.  I really like this, hadn't thought about it.
-I'd run Basalt Monolith instead of Tinder Wall because of the synergy with Workshop and Ironworks.
-I'd put in Crop Rotation, and perhaps Channel and Fastbond
-I'd try to fit in more card draw, perhaps over Will (Exsqueeze me?)[/color] because it doesn't start you in going off.  Or, you could put in Braingeyser and Stroke instead of Touch.  I'd also try to find stronger card draw instead of Brainstorm.  You'll get a lot of good hands and put down a lot of mana and then play Brainstorm or Chromatic Sphere, put a mana investment in these cards, and hope you hit card draw (which won't always happen)
-You need to make sure you get good card draw in your opening hand.  You don't want to get 6 broken mana producers but be stuck with a Sphere or a Brainstorm or an Ironworks.

This post advocates cutting Yawgmoth's Will from a type one combo deck, and including instead Braingeyser.  How awful.  Also, it was poorly written, so I edited it for clarity and resisted the urge to delete it altogether.  PLEASE try to keep the quality of your posts up in the future.
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« Reply #13 on: May 30, 2004, 08:31:11 pm »

How in God's name can you justify anything in the above post?  It defies all reason.

Grammar corrected.[/color]
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« Reply #14 on: June 04, 2004, 10:28:35 am »

Frankly, I think Ironworks has no practical application in Vintage.

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« Reply #15 on: June 04, 2004, 11:28:27 am »

Gimbles' list is missing Ironworks. Duh.  Fixed.

In any case, Belcher with Ironworks:

Some Lands (holy crap, we get to use lands?)
4x Seat of the Synod
4x Vault of Whispers
3x Ancient Den

Other Mana Goodness
7x SoLoMoxen
2x Mana Crypt/Vault
1x Lotus Petal
4x Krark Clan Ironworks
4x Dark Ritual

Dosn't Generate Mana without Ironworks
4x Chromatic Sphere
4x Serum Powder
3x Pentad Prism

Can Win
3x Myr Incubator
2x Goblin Charbelcher

Friggin' Broken
1x Yawgmoth's Will
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Timetwister
1x Memory Jar
1x Enlightned Tutor
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Tinker
1x Balance

Stable Deck Wins
4x Brainstorm
4x Serum Visions

Card Choices here:
1) No Land Grant (no forests)
The win condition of Incubator has been added, either in suppliment to the Belcher win or a win all its own.
2) Pentad Prism, Serum Powder:
With Ironworks, these cards are actually pretty good.  Prism fixes your mana, then sacs to produce 2.  Powder costs 3, taps for 1, then sacs for 2. Because of that, you can afford to keep it in a good hand (needless to say, you can mulligan if it appears in a bad hand!)
3) Serum Visions:
Plays well with Brainstorm and helps find pieces of the deck, especially after a Brainstorm or Enlightened Tutor.
About color choices:  Blue and black are great for draw and mana.  White is chosen over red and green for one reason:  Balance.  That card is so broken in this deck that it's a win condition by itself.  We have very few lands, very few cards in hand, and no creatures.  Owned.  It also gives us utility of Enlightened Tutor, which is nice when there are enough cards that draw one or more for cheap.


Ironworks really reworks the framework of the deck and though this is far from optimal, but it's approximately as fast as 2-land Belcher, and, especially when it gets going, it's more reliable.  Criticism is encouraged!

 -LoW

Edited for clarity.  
- Kowal
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« Reply #16 on: June 04, 2004, 12:03:47 pm »

Wow now I feel really stupid.  Sorry about that Razz
Well then here's the list revision and an explanation for a lot of the choices:

-White
1 Balance
2 Decree of Justice
2 Second Sunrise
1 Roar of Reclamation

-Black
1 Yawgmoth's Will
3 Disciple of the Vault

-Brown
1 Mindslaver
4 Krark Clan Ironworks
2 Myr Retriever

-Blue
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
2 Artificer's Intuition
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
4 Thirst for Knowledge

-Manabase
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
5 Moxen
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
4 Scrubland
1 Plains
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
2 Wasteland
1 Stripmine
1 Tolarian Academy

Decree of Justice:
It's quite obvious that any deck running such an engine should attempt to win with an {X} spell.  The ability to do it on someone's EOT is just better.  Although [card]Stroke of Genius[/card] would do the same, it would require much much more mana and hense makes itself worthless.

Disciple of the Vault:
Another painfully obvious part of this deck is the disciple, yet I'm not sure people know this so I'm clarifying.  The disciple allows for the game to be over while trying to combo off before it even happens.  Myr Retrievers make it possible as an infinite combo on the side.

Mindslaver:
We have determined that a lone Mindslaver can win a game simply by ruining the opponents hand, board strategy, etc.  Why not include one for a quick fix to any problematic situation?  Plus it's an expensive Time Walk.

Myr Retriever:
My original concern with this deck was the lack of more ways to get artifacts sacrificed and the ability to keep ironworks in play.  Retriever makes it so even some temporary denial can mean next turn win.

Artificer's Intuition:
The question isn't "why is this in here?"  The question is why only two copies.  I believe that in no way you need this card in this deck, but it is certainly nice to get stuff like lotii and moxen pitched or grabbed.  It allows for you to set up for the combo if you need more mana or something retardedly good in the yard but it isn't necessary on much account.  If I had much real room I would run 4 but at the moment I can't think of anything I would part with for 2 more.

Those are the only real questionable aspects of the deck, in case you're wondering how exactly it works.  It goes like this.
Play ironworks, sacrifice everything, play roar/yawg's win/sunrise to get it all back, then do it again play decree.  If you have a disciple, all the better.  The instant speed of sunrise allows this all to happen on someone's EOT, which I quite like, and then you can swing and be done with it before your turn ever really needs to start.

Edited for clarity.
- Kowal
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« Reply #17 on: June 09, 2004, 04:11:36 pm »

It seems to me like a pretty synergisitic addition to the deck since 10 mana is literally nothing with the works in play. Another really interesting addition would be Genesis Chamber since it generates infinite mana with the Retreiver loop kickin'...

Artifact:38
4 Metalworker
4 Myr Retreiver
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Mindslaver
4 Chalice of The Void
4 Gilded Lotus
4 Krak Clan Ironworks
1 Grim Monolith
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Black Lotus
5 Moxen

Black:3
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Mind Twist

Blue:5
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Mind's Desire
1 Tinker

Red:4
4 Goblin Welder

Land:10
4 Mishra's Workshop
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Library of Alexandria
4 Glimmervoid

This is probably a pretty bad version but I'm sure ya'll can see what I'm going for.  I see Ironworks being restricted in the near future as it's a lot like Tolarian Academy...

Edited for clarity.
- Kowal
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« Reply #18 on: June 09, 2004, 05:58:03 pm »

Kasuras' original post to kick this thread off wasn't bad, and was in fact quite professional, barring the Apprentice logs.  This COULD have gone in a good direction, but a lot of people have really brought down the quality of this thread with their really poorly written posts, and a couple of really terrible ideas, like cutting Yawgmoth's Will from a deck based around recurring a bunch of cheap artifacts.  Though it makes me unhappy Kasuras' thread had to be made an example as the "Sea of Red" as Dr Sylvan puts it, sometimes you just need to tell people that they're doing something wrong.  Against my better judgment, I'm not going to lock this.  I'm just going to move it to newbie, and ask that you people please think your posts through and put some effort towards making them slightly more readable.

Thank you.
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« Reply #19 on: June 29, 2004, 02:42:14 pm »

This thread, although heavily modded, is nonetheless a very thorough treatise into what is perhaps the most underrated card in Mirrodin block.

Type 2 will undoubtedly see an Ironworks induced combofest this fall, that undoubtedly involves Roar of Reclamation in some shape or form.  I say why should they have all the fun?

Here is an idea for a deck that I had, that undoubtedly suffers from consistency issues and the current widespread infestation of Null Rod, but serves to illustrate what the potential of this card truly is:

//NAME: Industry
// CREATOR: V.G.B.
// CREATED: 6/29/2004 8:25:00 PM
// FORMAT: Classic
// Lands
        2 Seat of the Synod
        4 City of Brass
        4 Glimmervoid
        4 Mishra's Workshop
        1 Tolarian Academy
// Creatures
        1 Darksteel Colossus
        3 Metalworker
        1 Platinum Angel
        1 Sundering Titan
        1 Voltaic Construct
        4 Goblin Welder
// Spells
        4 Thirst for Knowledge
        3 Roar of Reclamation
        1 Ancestral Recall
        1 Time Walk
        1 Tinker
        4 Transmute Artifact
        1 Yawgmoth's Will
// Artifacts
        4 Krark-Clan Ironworks
        1 Mana Crypt
        1 Mana Vault
        1 Memory Jar
        4 Pentad Prism
        1 Sol Ring
        1 Mindslaver
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Mox Emerald
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Sapphire

The synergy of Welder with Transmute Artifact and Pentad Prism is excellent:  Pentad assures that off-moxen become on-colored, and after it has been drained it is great fodder for Transmute or Welder.  Transmute is equivalent to an Artifact entomb, and with the prodigious mana this deck it is capable of producing, it might even become Tinkers 2-5.

Voltaic Construct + Metalworker is overkill, but limitless mana is limitless mana - even though this build doesn't have an infinite mana sink just yet (such as Staff of Dominance).  It takes a turn to come online, but Metalworker is still very strong here, due to its ability to come out via Workshop and play your entire hand on the next turn.

With all the mana flying around, Roar of Reclamation is Will 2-4, although the double white is Prism dependent - perhaps Gilded Lotus might help ease the colored mana craving.

The various one-of artifact creatures are for various utility - undoubtedly they could be swapped for a more coherent kill, such as the aforementioned Disciple of the Vault.

The glaring fault of this deck is the inconsistency - the only (non-P9) digging presently is Thirst for Knowledge, which is rather sketchy due to its cost.

-edit: grammar
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