[Card] Coffin Purge vs Cremate

[Liam]

ok, bear with me here.  I'm going to start with the utmost basics and build up, so as to make the reasoning for starting this discussion clear.  I'd like to make two factors known in advance, first is that I have no opinion as of yet, second is that just because something is currently done one way (as in Purge) doesn't mean it's neccecarily the best way.  I trust no one will cite their difference in rarity as an issue with any seriousness (cremate is an uncommon).

Right.  Now, for clarity's sake:

Coffin Purge
Instant
Remove target card in a graveyard from the game.
Flashback

Cremate
Instant
Remove target card in a graveyard from the game.
Draw a card.

The most obvious thing about these cards is how similar they are.  Both are instants and have all the benefits that implies, including synergy with Cunning Wish.  Slightly less obvious is they rely on cunning wish to be useful at all, as no compeditive deck has the amount of free sideboard slots, let alone cards to side out, that running these things as conventional sidebard hate would require.  You're going to have one or two, and you're going to use Cunning Wish to grab it if you need it.  Because this reduces the number of decks the cards are really eligible in (ones that maindeck multiple cunning wish) there are less randomness factors to consider when comparing the cards.

Another readily apparent similarity is that both cards, once cast, replace themselves with another available spell, either by cantriping or by effectively being still in your hand via flashback.  Herein lies the difference though: one spell puts a copy of itself in your hand (which is visible to your opponent), the other spell puts a random topdeck in your hand (which is not).  The question becomes which is more useful to you.

Consider context.  First of all, you are not wishing for the card unless you already need it.  Chances are, unless you wished it out to rfg a regrowth target or randomly stop 'tog from reaching lethal damage after their hand is gone, it will be useful again, whether you are dealing with a goblin welder or a worldgorger dragon.  However, unless you're playing a bad deck or very poor metamage choice, the next card in your library stands a good chance to be useful shortly as well.

Consider card slots.  If you rfg one problem card and may need to do so again, you can run just one coffin purge and buy yourself two chances to stop something very bad from happening, and by extention, need only burn a single Wish for those two chances..  This is a serious consideration against the current recursion combos, which are extremely redundant.

Consider efficiency.  While it's good to have an ohshit button should your deck fail to stop a Bad Thing, it's often stronger still to stop the real problem cards.  Obviously, removing a welder is a much better use of a card than removing a mindslaver or platinum angel.  Dragon is a bit of a different story however, the enormous redundancy of recursion spells in Dragon decks makes countering them all unlikely.  Yet in either case, Cremate provides a fair chance at doing something productive right now instead of buying you time to do something productive later should a second Bad Thing come about.

Consider dynamics.  If you stop one threat, are you likely to have need of another casting of that same spell before the game is already decided?  If not, the new spell is probably better.  With the amount of "swingy" spells in type one, crushing Dragon's attempt to go off, and to a lesser extent Slaver's attempt to combo out, should mean you have a massive, full-turn-minimum window of opportunity to kick your opponent's teeth in.  Yet this is hardly a sure thing.  Using this same logic, is stopping TWO such attempts not an even bigger window of opportunity?  Or is it just win-more?  Does the random topdeck from Cremate significantly improve your next turn to the point where having the extra card gives you more to do during your window of opportunity (it COULD be yawgwill... or a fetchland)?

Don't underestimate the cantrip, if it's tied to a useful effect it becomes extremely powerful (time walk and an active future sight are the best examples).  That's not to say you should overlook the surefire redundancy of a two for one.

Thoughts?  As I said, my jury's still out on this one.

[jazzykat]

Regarding the cunning wish issue: Coffin purge are sometimes a 2 of in the SB of tog. (They were 3 ofs in the heyday of dragon). You can SB them in and then intuition for them to make reanimation decks cry. The fact that purge is also duress proof, and can be used twice to me allows you the same amount of card advantage (2 uses: Purge, or 1 use and a cantrip: Cremate).

Simply for the intuitionable, duress proofness of purge will I still take purge.

I think that ebony charm is sometimes a more desirable replacement for purge though, to knock out multiple squees in the yard and cripple bazaar decks. It becomes an uber nasty wish target as well.

[Tempe]

Purging the opponent of game-winning cards is better than hoping for a game-winning topdeck yourself. If you're Wishing for it, you'll likely need to use it more than once (say, to nail 2 Mindslavers or 2 Squees). Not to mention you can rewish for it.

--Tempe

[CMass]

Purge has to be countered twice, Cremate only once.  Advantage: Purge.

[PucktheCat]

I don't think there is any question about about it: Purge is the better spell.

Here is why:

If you Cunning Wish for an anti-Graveyard spell there must be something dangerous enough in your deck that is grave-related to make you spend four mana to stop it.  If that is the case then there is probably almost nothing in your deck that you could draw that is better than another crack at the graveyard for only one mana.

The same thing is true of every wish target: if you are going to wish for a card you want it to get one that is narrow and powerful, not one that is never-dead but not as strong against the particular opponent you are facing now.  Think about it: did Keeper ever cycle Renewed Faith against Sligh?  Of course not, because it wanted to get the maximum use out of its hoser, not get a bit of use out of it and a random card off the top of its library.

That being said, I think it would be interesting to test a 1-1 split between Purge and Charm in Hulk SBs.  Charm is stronger in some circumstances and Purge in others.  Using one of each would increase the overall strength of Wish - the only question is whether it weakens things post-sb enough to make it a net-loss.

Charm also is a x/1 killer, which gives you a way to kill Welder in Black . . .

Leo

[goober]

I think Purge over Cremate, because of the argument puck said about how it is effectivly the best card in your deck vs whatever you are playing at the moment.  I think it is also better vs Funeral Charm because most of the time you won't be able to fully utilize the 3 at once.  Lets take into consideration what matchups you will use them in.  

Dragon. to combat Dragon and Squees.  In this case Coffin Purge is better because it takes their Dragon even if they Force it, and if they don't you can remove another dragon if they run 2.  Removing 3 Squees at once probably won't happen because it is better to wait for the reanimation spell.

Welder in anything.  Usually they only have 1 target in their graveyard that you really need to remove, and if they have 2 then you can just purge it.  Also each you can do in response to Welder targeting it, so you buy yourself 2 turns.  If you use funeral charm you risk them dumping a threat in the yard then welding it next turn.  Being able to kill it is nice which means I would probably pick the Charm over Purge, but making the Welder have to tap uselessly twice should give you time to kill it through some other means.

Yawgmoth's Will.  This one Funeral Charm is better against, but fairly often hitting 2 key spells, is enough to make Will lose its BROKEN status and just be broken or even just an extra few moxen.   Charm is definitly better in this case, but Wills happen a lot less frequently than Squees, Welders, and targeting Dragons.  Also a matchup with Will usually wouldn't have either of these sided in against them.  As far as wishing for them, it is probably more advisable to wish for some draw spell to look for FoW unless removing 2 or 3 of the cards in the yard will make Will useless.

Squee recursion.  Funeral Charm snags 3 if they have all 3 there at once.  But in order to wait for all 3 to hit the yard you will have to let the 1 and 2 sit allowing for card advantage until they find the third.  Purge can hit them immediatly upon hitting the yard so they can't do anything before they hit 3, and when they get 3 it is only 1 Squee for them to play with.  I think Funeral Charm is better against this.

Overall I perfer Purge because it is Duress proof, and essentially counterproof.  And its sleight disadvantage in usability overall is beaten by the garunteed use.

[brianb]

What makes cheap cantrips good is that they are never THAT terrible too have in your hand.  For sideboard cards, though, you're looking for something better than not terrible.  You're looking for something to side in or wish for that will significantly swing the game in your favor.  Purge does that better than cremate for reasons other people have given.  So the only possible application of cremate I can think of is if your metagame is completely inbred and overrun with things that need removing (and withered wretch doesn't fit your gameplan), you can run cremate maindeck and just cycle it away when it isn't needed.

[WhiteMage05]

If you don't have anything to add to the conversation, please don't post.
-Jacob

To avoid sounding redundant, and to avoid retyping all of the above, I will simply note my opinion:

Ebony Charm > Coffin Purge >>>> Cremate.