[deck] New Long - w/ 5th dawn

[Marton]

Ok well, checking through my new 5th dawn cards, one card that quickly seemed to me like a potent card was conjurer's bauble. It's basically an artifact cantrip that's a bit like a one shot soldevi digger. Then I see krark-clan ironworks, and of course, see a very potent mana source. So from there I started building a deck that tried abusing tolarian academy as much as possible. Needless to say, I came to realize that the deck I built was pretty much exactly a Long deck minus the 4x burning wishes and the 4x lion's eye diamond. Basically it's the same Long we all know, with no burning wish and 1x lion's eye diamond. No burning wish means the wish targets are now maindeck. Yawgmoth's will and balance were put back in maindeck, also with 3x conjurer's bauble and 1x krark-clan ironworks. It's sure not as broken as the original Long, but it's still quite workable. So here's the list, with changes from Long in bold:

New Long - modified by Marton
------------------------------------

mana sources (28)

4x city of brass
4x gemstone mine
2x underground sea
1x tolarian academy
1x black lotus
1x mox sapphire
1x mox jet
1x mox ruby
1x mox emerald
1x mox pearl
1x mox diamond
1x lotus petal
1x mana vault
1x mana crypt
1x sol ring
4x dark ritual
1x lion's eye diamond (originally 4x)
1x krark-clan ironworks

draw (11)

1x ancestral recall
1x timetwister
1x wheel of fortune
1x memory jar
1x windfall
1x yawgmoth's bargain
1x necropotence
4x brainstorm

tutors (4)

1x demonic tutor
1x vampiric tutor
1x mystical tutor
1x tinker

consistency (11)

4x duress
4x chromatic sphere (1x extra compared to the original Long)
3x conjurer's bauble
(originally 4x burning wish, not present here)

broken spells (4)

1x yawgmoth's will
1x time walk
1x balance (originally in sidebord)
1x mind's desire

kill (2)

2x tendrils of agony   (1x extra from original long, since we don't run burning wish)

total: 60 cards



other cards originally in Long sidebord that were considered:
1x demonic consultation
1x regrowth
1x diminishing returns

other cards that could make it to the deck:
burning wish
cunning wish
glimmervoid
(grim monolith)
(pentad prysm)
(thoughtcast)

Note on the changes:

the conjurer's bauble has great synergy with vampiric tutor and tolarian academy and krark-clan ironworks. If you play yawgmoth's will, it's quite interesting to replay the baubles/chromatic spheres, but if you also have the krark-clan ironworks into play, you can basically get free mana - a bit like an off color mox. Of course, if you already have moxes into play, sacrificing them to the krark-clan ironworks before the yawgmoth's will feels really broken beyond belief, and that's not even mentioning about the additionnal storm count it gives (important for tendrils of agony and mind's desire). Also, the krark-clan ironworks is a decent tinker target.

What this deck lacks the most compared to the original Long is the lack of toolbox (burning wish). I'm really thinking here about troublesome cards, such as null rod. The only change that seems necessary to me is 2-3 wish, which really are there for dealing with null rods amongst other things. Perhaps one burning wish and one cunning wish could do the job. If the wishes proves to be a necessary addition, then my first guess as the best card to replace with would be 1x chromatic sphere and 1x conjurer's bauble.

tell me what you guys think.
-marton

[firebird365]

I don't think Conjurer's Bauble will work, partly because you only have 1 Ironworks (which might be the right number) but because it's a bad card. It has synergy with Ironworks, but so what? So do all other artifacts. And honestly, Vampiric Tutor for Yawgmoth's Will would do a whole lot more than tutoring for whatever you're putting on the bottom of your deck. I'm no Long player, but I would suggest replacing them.

[Marton]

You really ought to try it out, I have had a good number of turn one and turn 2 kills with this build. You would be surprised by what the conjurer's bauble allows you to do. Sure, for the most parts it's just a 1cc artifact, but the important part is the cantrip. Another < 2cc artifact means a free mana with krark-clan ironworks (which can also be tinkered), but it also means that it adds mana when coupled with tolarian academy. Of important note is that its a 1cc-'free' draw card when played with yawgmoth's will. It also allows you to put back those timetwister in the deck after you play one. It works with vampiric tutor if you need to draw a card on the spot. It also adds to the storm count with mind's desire. It also allows you to 'store' one card after a sub-par memory jar. Try it out, its really decent.

[Fastbond]

I find that too many cantrips use up too much mana for not enough cards.    They're cost efficient but they increase the risk of stalling out.  Chromatic Sphere is necessary for the color fixing ability.  I tried Krark's-Clan Ironworks but found that you had to have drawn a bunch of cards already for it to be any good.

[Marton]

I agree that krark-clan ironworks really requires to have drawn a lot of cards to be good. But so is tolarian academy. I am not trying to say that krark-clan ironworks is comparable to tolarian academy, I am just saying that in a sense it does feels a bit like having a 2nd tolarian academy. The main krark-clan ironworks strength is that you can sacrifice all your moxes/mox diamond/sol ring/lion's eye diamond/chromatic sphere/conjurer's bauble/mana vault/mana crypt/lotus petal *and* the ironworks itself *right before* a yawgmoth's will. Just as the original Long dec was very yawgmoth's will centered, so is this deck. Of course you can't brainstorm your yawgmoth's will on top of your deck, use the lion's eye diamond and then use the chromatic sphere as easily as before, but it is still a Long deck that very much wants to draw a yawgmoth's will and play it.

I would greatly like to know the opinion of a former Long player. Playing Long correctly is not easy. Judging the deck based solely by reading through the decklist without testing it out many times (as this deck *cannot* be played in auto-pilot) can be misleading. Like most decks packing draw-7s cards (mostly combo-ish decks), playing out the deck requires the player to consider the most likely cards to be drawn next based on the cards already seen, and of course of the opponents deck also. Just like the recent Charbelcher article clearly shows, playing a combo deck can be more complicated than on first sight. This deck has a lot of synergies, many of which are not obvious even after playing it out a couple of times. There are also stack tricks that you can do (most involve lion's eye diamond).

Conjurer's bauble opens up new plays. This version relies more heavily on black lotus than the original Long did (mostly because of the 3 missing lion's eye diamond). Conjurer's bauble can be used to put back black lotus in the deck, which can prove to be a crucial play later on. Conjurer's bauble can not only be cast during a sub-par memory jar activation to at least get back one card on the next turn, but conjurer's bauble can also be used the turn after a sub-par memory jar activation to put back a crucial card put in the graveyard.

The deck requires a lot of drawing, and lot of drawing also means lot of casting. Black lotus is very much a central piece of the deck because you need to draw mana with your draw-7s/necropotence/yawgmoth's bargain. If you can play a krark-clan ironworks, then all the artifacts you draw becomes one shots mana vaults. This deck basic strategy is simple: draw lots, play a lot, play tendrils of agony. To do all this, you need mana, lots of it. That's why black lotus and yawgmoth's will make the deck tick, because in between your draw-7s you need to play more draw-7s. I don't think many other card can seriously replace lion's eye diamond, unless there exists another good mana accelerant. Pentad prysm could *perhaps* take it's place, but the problem is that this deck wants to have mana as soon as possible (like right after a draw-7), and it wants it on the same turn, due to the all importants storm counts (mind's desire/tendrils of agony). Pentad prysm could fill the conjurer's bauble place *only if* you already have a krark-clan ironworks into play (please note: the pentad prysm is *not* sacrificed after you take back the 2 mana from it, it stays there as a dormant artifact). Pentad prysm is really a great mana fixer, but I am unsure that paying 2 mana to get 2 mana back is good enough. Perhaps you could manage to run this deck with 2x krark-clan ironworks and 2-4 pentad prysms, but I don't feel like it would be workable. I'd like to mention that you can't replace lion's eye diamond with elvish spirit guide, because it does not adds to the storm counts, and cannot be replayed with yawgmoth's will. And please let's ignore the alternate elvish spirit guide beatdown route You could try and run other mana accelerants, like tinder wall or cabal ritual, but those simply cannot be tinkered, and don't help tolarian academy. This deck really need < 2cc artifacts mana accelerants. Grim monolith could *perhaps* be ran here, but other than that I do not see any other viable cards that can replace lion's eye diamond. Conjurer's bauble seems to me like one of the only viable lion's eye diamond alternative.

I would very much point out that you can play this Long version a bit differently than the original. You can play it more around krark-clan ironworks, trying to get it out asap and feed it with as many artifacts as you can to fuel out the other cards.

[goober]

I played long from early September straight through to the banning, and still goldfish with it for fun.  The reason that the old long could be Will-centric and win was because it ran 4 of them, this version only runs 1.  If you include the tutors then 4 to 7.  Also in the origonal, the spell that made Will broken (LED) cost 0, where Krark costs 4.  Also this only runs 1/2 (tinker) Krarks, so it won't nearly always be there when you can Will.  I do think this is a solid deck, but the metagame is too competitive for it.  It is slower than Belcher and Draw7 runs FoW and is equally fast and broken.  While Duress is good, FoW is better, which gives Draw7 the edge.  This is a little slower than the other combo decks, so you will most likely have people get to Mana Drian mana, or Duress something important.  While this deck does play a lot like long, due to the massive overlap.  The main cards that made long broken aren't here, and their replacements are not as strong as Draw7's.

[Marton]

I do agree that force of will is better than duress in almost any case. However I feel compelled to add that Belcher requires a goblin charbelcher to enter play (and null rod to stay out , whereas this deck only needs to remove a stifle/null rod. Tendrils of agony nicely makes force of will/misdirection/mana drain mostly irrelevant.

[goober]

The problem is that getting a Tendrils to 20 is hard when the Force/Drain a Draw7, and Null Rod makes it hard to get the mana up to be able to play out your deck.  Charbelcher can deal with a Null rod with Wishing for Scavenger Folk or Uktabi.  If it gets lucky it can even weld them out.

[Marton]

I agree with all of this goober. This deck does not packs the original Long power, as I had acknowledged before. It does lack the original toolbox too. But nevertheless, I am trying here to make it work as best as I can with the currently available cards. Like every deck, there comes a time where the deck is not as good as it used to be (except perhaps keeper . Other decks sure are better in the current metagame, but the base of this deck proved some time ago that it was powerfull. Perhaps this deck could be built/played in a way that it can become too a very competitive deck in the current meta. This is what I am trying to do.

[Marton]

wow, I just noticed that the decklist I posted here is almost the same as JP Meyer new article first decklist ( http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=7429 ). I posted the decklist just a few hours prior to it. The differences are very few, namely:

JP's decklist (61 cards)   ->    Marton's decklist (60 cards)
--------------------------------------------------------------------
4x glimmervoid -> 3x gemstone mine and 1x underground sea (agreed here, that choice would be better in my version as well)
4x force of will -> 4x duress (which I prefer since they can add to the storm count. I would also point out that hard-casting force of will is almost un-doable in this deck)
3x diminishing returns -> 3x conjurer's bauble
1x crop rotation -> 1x balance
1x fastbond -> 1x mox diamond
3x krark-clan ironworks -> 1x krark-clan ironworks
3x chromatic sphere -> 4x chromatic sphere

[Marton]

Ok, having read through JP's latest article ( http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=7429 ) draw-7 decklist, I have made some changes to my deck. What I find interesting is that the deck are very similar, and JP's decklist does fix some of the issues I was having with my build (namely, lacking mana between the draw-7s). So here is the new version of my deck, coupling both JP's draw-7 deck and mine. Perhaps I should instead say that it is merely a 'corrected' version.


Changes from my decklist compared to JP's declist are in bold. JP's decklist is 61 cards.



mana sources (30)

4x city of brass
4x glimmervoid
1x gemstone mine
1x underground sea
1x tolarian academy

1x black lotus
1x mox sapphire
1x mox jet
1x mox ruby
1x mox emerald
1x mox pearl
1x lotus petal
1x mana vault
1x mana crypt
1x sol ring
4x dark ritual
1x lion's eye diamond
1x krark-clan ironworks (instead of 3x krark-clan ironworks)
1x fastbond
1x crop rotation
1x retract

draw (14)

1x ancestral recall
1x timetwister
1x wheel of fortune
1x memory jar
1x windfall
3x diminishing returns
1x yawgmoth's bargain
1x necropotence
4x brainstorm

tutors (4)

1x demonic tutor
1x vampiric tutor
1x mystical tutor
1x tinker

consistency (7)

4x duress (instead of 4x force of will)
3x chromatic sphere

broken spells (3)

1x yawgmoth's will
1x time walk
1x mind's desire

kill (2)

2x tendrils of agony

total: 60 cards


The changes from JP's build to mine are:
3x krark-clan ironworks -> 1x krark-clan ironworks and 1x retract
4x force of will -> 4x duress

Keep in mind that the number don't add up because JP's decklist is 61 cards while mine is 60. The logic behind my changes are that, as noted in JP's article, the krark-clan ironworks are too costly and their colorless mana are not as usefull as hoped. So I cut down to one, as in my original build. This gave 2 free spots, one of which I won't use (to get down to 60 cards). The other spot I replaced with retract. I will note here that the contenders I was thinking to put there were either retract, mox diamond, chromatic sphere (to get to 4x) or balance. I like having a balance handy, but with all the draw-7s and the deck speed, I am rather unsure if it is a good idea.

I personally prefer to play duress instead of force of will. The reasoning behind it is that force of will is almost impossible to hardcast in this deck, and also duress can be used to add up storm counts. I can understand that it is playable with all the draw-7s, but I am left unsure that another blue card can be relied on to be there.

I am a bit unsure about the number of diminishing returns. Removing yawgmoth's will from the game can be very costly. I would perhaps go down to 2x diminishing returns. I would probably replace it with retract, underground sea, gemstone mine, burning wish, cunning wish, force of will or xantid swarm. Mostly, the wishes could be there to take care of null rods should they enter play. The force of will/xantid swarms are counter-stifle tech.

[Nehptis]

Tendrils of agony nicely makes force of will/misdirection/mana drain mostly irrelevant.

I've been playing Long pre-restriction and continue to play variants still today.  In my experience, I can tell you that those spells aren't for your TOA, they're going to target your Draw 7s or broken spells and disrupt your turn.

I think this is a decent attempt at a new FD "Long" variant.  I hope you find time for some testing / reports.  I'll be interested to see it develop.

[rozetta]

Unfortunately, with the restriction of Burning Wish, another important card from the original long.dec became invalidated - Demonic Consultation. With 4 Burning Wish you could easily consult for one on the spot and get Yawgmoth's Will, knowing that you had a good chance at being able to get back any important sorcery removed from the game. In effect, the consult often worked in your favour, removing a lot of restricted sorceries from the game to be more easily tutored for. Unfortunately, with the additional loss of LED, even if we replace those burning wishes with death wishes, the mana requirements become too high for the deck to run at the same speed it used to.

The Conjurer's Bauble looked interesting to me too, but the fact that it's costing you a mana to cast means it's going to, in many cases, be taking away a colored mana you need to go off with or set you back a turn while you cast them. They might be good in conjunction with Helm of Awakening, and would certainly help getting threshold to power up Cabal Ritual, but using up slots for these might upset the balance of the deck. I can see why you cut them from your current build, but they might fit into some other deck quite nicely.

Aside from having a good interaction with Yawgmoth's Will, I can't see any really strong arguement for including the ironworks in these builds of draw7. The extra colorless mana here and there might help cast a draw7 or use a chromatic sphere, and true, I haven't tested this deck, but it seems like a helm of awakening would do just about the same thing, but have more synergy with Tolarian Academy.

Since you have only 3 tutors for Lotus (Demonic, Vampiric and Tinker), I can't see it being that easy to always get it turn 1 and be in an advantageous situation to use it.

After saying all of this, I must add that I'm interested in seeing a combo deck of this style become competitive again, so please keep up the good work in testing and tuning.

[Marton]

Yes it is true that the krark-clan ironworks colorless mana is quite annoying most of the time. Most of the time (in all the builds presented in my previous posts), krark-clan ironworks was just an 'ok' card, not bad, but not great either. Only the first build could much more focus on krark-clan ironworks strength, particuliarily when coupled with conjurer's bauble. The fun thing is that conjurer's bauble opens up new plays. Perhaps it could find a niche and be somehow abused when coupled with another card. Of course this is extremely hard to do, considering the deck speed I want it to have. The first build really lacked mana about 50 percent of the time in-between the many draw cards which fuel the storm count for the tendrils of agony/mind's desires (both pretty much equal a kill). However, while it did lack mana, the conjurer's bauble did provide on the next turn a lot more of card drawing. You could always try and gamble, trying to topdeck whatever card you need. I would also mention that while krark-clan ironworks proved to be so-so, it did open up new plays. As I mentioned a few times before, I am mostly thinking about krark-clan ironworks sacrificing everything then play a yawgmoth's will.

Like you guys probably noted, I then got influenced with JP Meyer's article, mostly on his draw-7 deck, which is very similar. JP's deck *did* take care of the mana problems I had with mine, so I ended up trying to adjust my deck based on the other deck. It pretty much resulted in a 'fixed' version of JP's deck, with only 2 cards being different (-2x krark-clan ironworks +1x retract (his deck was 61)). Sure the resulting decklist works, but other than that, it failed to provide anything new like I originally wanted. Don't get me wrong, the recent decklist I gave is much better than my first attempt at the deck, but thinking back over the changes I think I will rather try and take a different route (more like my original intent). I am pretty sure that a lot of people will agree with me when I say that there has got to be a way to abuse krark-clan ironworks, or to find powerfull synergies with it. I do am aware that JP's article was JP Meyer best attempt at abusing the card, and that if 'The Man' can't find a way to make it broken, then my chances are slim. I will still take the odds and give it a try.

So to get back to your point, yes I too believe that for now that krark-clan ironworks is possibly not a great choice. One direction I am currently testing is abusing more retract/hurkyl's recall than draw-7s (think diminishing returns here). The basic idea here is that my original version had enough card drawers (all but diminishing returns) to be sufficient, so that what's really needed is to 're-use' all those card drawers in the cheapest way possible rather than casting new ones. The basic idea here is that it costs a lot to play a diminishing returns, so instead of casting those, why not instead play retract/hurkyl's recall and replay all those artifacts, thus greatly increasing the all-importants storm counts. But also, retract and hurkyl's recall *can* give mana. This could also *perhaps* be tried with vedalken archmage. My current version I am testing uses hurkyl's recall instead of retract, the reasoning here being that an opposing null rod is game over. I am still unsure about wether or not this is the right call. The old version of the deck *did* get some turn 1 kills, so if it would be possible to put the focus here then retract could be the better call.

While my new decklist is still in the works, I will mention here the basic differences between my first build and JP's build, examining the differences. As I said, my version lacked some mana acceleration. I tried 'fixing' it by using as many artifacts as possible, making tolarian acadedmy and krark-clan ironworks better. It still lacked mana acceleration. JP's version fixed most of the issues by using crop rotation and fastbond. JP's version didn't use mox diamond while I did. I can't deny that crop rotation and fastbond definately fixed my mana issues, but at the cost of removing 1 card from this extremely card-tight deck (removing one due to mox diamond being dropped, due to 'anti-synergy' with fastbond).

I have not tested cabal ritual in any of my builds. I will keep that in mind. However I will point out that I believe the best bet is to try and abuse artifacts/retract as much as possible. I am afraid that helm of awakening will not really be all that usefull, because most spells have low cc and have colored mana. It is true that the same could be said of krark-clan ironworks, but krark-clan ironworks opens up new plays, while helm of awakening can shoot you in the back should you opponent take advantage of it. This is merely my initial impressions of it, but again, I will test it as well.

[Marton]

Here is the latest version of the deck. It has a good number of synergy with the new cards and some of the new cards are real bombs most of the time.

Here is the relevant list of the new cards/card numbers:

0x krark-clan ironworks (removed, too clunky and conditional)
1x diminishing returns (the deck lacked draw. I must mention that the problem with this card is that it can remove your only 2 kill conditions, and you cannot get them back. Also 4 mana is a lot. Generally speaking, during my tests a future sight was preferred over the 2nd diminishing returns, and so was the vedalken archmage. Still, one diminishing returns proved to be a must have.)
2x retract (both a possible card drawer w/ vedalken archmage, and a possible mana accelerant/mana fixer. Also is usefull for adding up tremendous storm counts. As a bonus, you can mystical tutor for it)
1x vedalken archmage (seems laughable at first, until you play with it. Of course it is very vulnerable to anti creatures, but if this hits plays and you have a retract in hand it's pretty degenerate.)
1x future sight (future sight is a bomb when you deck contains only 11 lands and also packs crop rotation. The deck has many tutors/reshuffles, which indirectly maximizes the card use. Works well in conjunction with chromatic sphere, tutors, draw-7s + yawgmoth's bargain, fastbond, vedalken archmage, brainstorm, tendrils of agony, mind's desires, yawgmoth's will, lion's eye diamond (particuliarily with brainstorm also). Is there a card with which this card doesn't combines well ?)
1x crop rotation (definately a staple after few tests. provides the originally lacking mana acceleration in the early turns, where you need the most your blue mana.)
1x fastbond (this is arguably the worst card of the lot. It feels at times like it is unnecessary, particularly considering the agnostic number of lands in the deck (11 lands). Cards considered for replacement were: force of will, cabal ritual, chromatic sphere.)

So here's the 3rd version of the deck, in all of it's glaring beauty New changes and important cards to note are in bold.


New Long deck - modified by Marton
--------------------------------------------

mana sources (30)
----------------------
4x city of brass
4x glimmervoid
2x gemstone mine (UPDATE: was 1x gemstone mine + 1x underground sea)
1x tolarian academy

1x black lotus
1x mox sapphire
1x mox jet
1x mox ruby
1x mox emerald
1x mox pearl
1x lotus petal
1x mana vault
1x mana crypt
1x sol ring
4x dark ritual
1x lion's eye diamond
1x crop rotation
1x fastbond (in testing: replace with 1x lim-dul's vault ?)
2x retract

(0x krark-clan ironworks)

draw (14)
-------------
1x ancestral recall
1x timetwister
1x wheel of fortune
1x memory jar
1x windfall
1x diminishing returns
1x yawgmoth's bargain
1x necropotence
4x brainstorm
1x future sight
1x vedalken archmage (in testing: replace with 1x chain of vapor ?)

tutors (4)
------------
1x demonic tutor
1x vampiric tutor
1x mystical tutor
1x tinker

consistency (7)
-------------------
4x xantid swarm (UPDATE: originally was duress)
3x chromatic sphere

broken spells (3)
--------------------
1x yawgmoth's will
1x time walk
1x mind's desire

kill (2)
--------
2x tendrils of agony

total: 60 cards


other cards that could have made the cut:
cabal ritual
force of will
diminishing returns (extras)
chromatic sphere (extras)


This new version works much more consistently. This version really deserves giving it a try. As always, feel free to comment or flame me to hell. This new version has a good draw consistency, a lot of new synergies, and works much better vs null rod (replace retract by hurkyl's recall and youre done . Not only that, but the deck could afford to put 1-2x force of will (or change the 4x duress for 4x force of will and make 2 places for 2x duress). This new version has much less problem trying to held back everything it can and cast it all at once in order to have a good storm count. It can also deal better with a long lasting game (think 5+ turns) with future sight. You can play it all out at once, put all your artifact into play, then wait for the next turn and dump vedalken archmage/retract and basically get a big mana boost/storm count out of it. I would really to hear from other people what you think of it.


UPDATE:
4x duress -> 4x xantid swarm (while duress is great to add storm counts, it requires to be cast again after a draw-7, which is not always easy to do considering that it costs black mana. Black mana can be hard to get after a draw-7 because you often tap out to cast the draw-7, and you rely on the drawn moxes, which often aren't black. Thinking back of it, this should almost had been obvious from the start. Testing seems to definately agree that xantid swarm is much better here than duress is. Another advantage is that duress can only remove one card, if the opponent has force of will and a stifle, he force of wills your duress, you do your tendrils then you loose the game. Fortunately xantid swarm fixes this issue. This change provoked the following change...)
1x underground sea -> 1x gemstone mine (see the above change.)
1x vedalken archmage -> 1x chain of vapor (currently being tested)
1x fastbond -> 1x lim-dul's vault (currently being tested)

-marton