Boltbait - Rare Ogre that draws cards for Red

[dandan]

Boltbait
3R
Creature -- Ogre
3/3
Draw a card whenever 3 or more non-combat damage is dealt to an opponent
Blood draws blood

I would like a creature that dies to a Bolt but that feeds its controller with energy (cards) in return for the use of direct damage. Remember that there is a limited amount of times you can bolt an opponent so this is a little bit of a win-more card. (I don't want to hear anyone hassle me about situations where you have reusable sources of damage that can hit an oppponent turn after turn)
Would I be pushing my luck to add 'or a creature controlled by an opponent'?


Latest Wording

Firespeaker
3R
Creature - Ogre Shaman
Whenever any player plays a red instant or sorcery spell from his or her hand, each player may pay RR. Each player who does may copy that spell and play the copy without without paying its mana cost.
3/3
Blood draws blood

Changes
Malhavoc - Improved wording
Ephraim - symmetrical effect, wording changed from opponent to player to remove clunkiness! New name and creature profession. Wording update to allow a single copy of each spell played but multiple activations if more than one spell is played
Dandan - scrapped card draw and changed to Fork
Sheera - wording improved

[Malhavoc]

I'd correct the wording this way:

"Whenever a spell or ability deals 3 or more damage to an opponent, draw a card".  It is clearer that those 3 damage must be from a unique source. With your wording I don't understand if using 2 shocks I'm gonna draw a card.

Anyway, I don't think drawing this way should be a red creature ability. I'd make it a red-blue creature, let's say with a casting cost of 2RU.

[Matt]

I think this should stay red but reward you in a different way - possibly giving out free Shocks or blowing up a land or something. Something more 'red'.

[dandan]

I know I am out of step with Wizards' official colour pie but I think that all colours should be able to do almost all things (I'm not too hot on Red damage prevention for example) as long as they do in in a suitable way and at a power level that reflect that colour's natural ability to do that thing.

To me, it is perfectly natural for Red to gain power from dealing large amounts of non-combat damage, in exactly the same way that Green recently got card drawing when it does combat (creature) damage. Black has cards for life, Blue has cards for mana and White has cards for following a strict set of rules.

In short, I think that card drawing is too wide and too powerful an ability to leave to Blue and Black.

I can't really see why it would be necessary to make this Shock something rather than drawing a card. The deck would almost certainly get another Mountain, direct damage spell or Red creature anyway, which seems a reasonable reward for going what Red likes doing. I don't think the ability works as part of a combo and other than Red only Black has the ability to deal large amounts of non-combat damage (and that has largely changed to loss of life).

Would widening the ability to include non-combat damage to creatures make it too good?

[Matt]

Actually, they gave the Phid ability back to blue. Green doesn't draw cards anymore either.

[dandan]

Blue didn't get card drawing back, it had it all along. I think Blue is OK with creatures that do no actual damage as they draw you cards and Green having fat creatures that draw you cards as a reward for dealing damage. Green also has card drawing by tapping creatures and card drawing by casting very fat creatures.

In any case, card drawing as a byproduct of dealing large chunks of damage to an opponent is self-limiting by its very nature.

It is a shame the name Ogre Shamen is taken, some reference to that card would be nice as the 2 are both cards=damage (although not a combo). Is it really such a stretch to draw a card rather than do an extra 2 damage? It certainly is far more interesting.

[dandan]

Is this boring?
Have I convinced you that Red can have card drawing under certain circumstances?
Does everyone agree with this or do you all disagree so much that you aren't even posting?

I am amazed that there is little to no discussion on this.

[Jacob Orlove]

What other red spells draw cards? (other than cantrips)

[b4r0n]

Browbeat
Control of the Court
Dragon Mage
Fiery Gambit
Goblin Lore
Strategy Schmategy  :lol:
Wheel of Fortune
Winds of Change

Yeah... besides cantrips, card drawing isn't in flavor for red, other than the whole "discard hand, draw a new one" thing. In my opinion, you could add blue to the card to have it make sense. Perhaps something along the lines of:

Boltbait
2UR
Creature -- Ogre Wizard
3/3
Whenever 3 or more damage is dealt to an opponent, draw a card.
Blood draws blood

Is that any better?

[Kowal]

If you're going to add a color, I think you could get away with reducing the mana cost to 1UR.

[dandan]

To be honest, the starting point for this card was:

Assuming that Red can draw cards somehow, how can it draw cards?

I can see that a few people would disagree with the 'assuming' but if you go beyond that I think drawing cards as a reward for dealing large (more than Shock) amounts of non-combat (direct) damage is the logical answer. (random events is a second logical answer but I'd rather not go there!!)

I don't want to add Blue. This is a Red card. Why on earth should Blue have any interest in dealing direct damage?

So far nobody has argued against this card on power level alone (there are only so many times you can bolt an opponent).  Red and Green have both had card drawing before and I can see no reason why they can't have some again as long as it is in flavour, logical and weaker than Blue and even Black and White card drawing.

Personally when a see a Lightning Bolt I expect to see more.

On a flavour level why are both Storm Shamen and Ogre Shamen taken!!!
I don't want a Minotaur and Trolls tend to be Green and Regenerate these days. He's too fat for a Dwarf, Goblin or Orc. OMG we haven't seen an Orgg Shamen......

[Fish]

How about this?

1UR

Whenever you draw a card any time other than at the beginning of your turn, deal 2 damage to target creature or player.

3/3

I like this a lot more. If it's too good, we can make it a 3/2 or 2/3 or even a 2/2.

[Malhavoc]

How about this?

1UR

Whenever you draw a card any time other than at the beginning of your turn, deal 2 damage to target creature or player.

3/3

I like this a lot more. If it's too good, we can make it a 3/2 or 2/3 or even a 2/2.

What? It means a simple brainstorm would deal SIX damages divided in chunks of 2 among creatures and the opponent? No way, it's definitely too powerful, such a monster should have a huge casting cost, but personally I'd never make such a thing for any cost.

[dandan]

Look, I don't want to appear inflexible but this card is all about Red. It wants nothing to do with Blue. There are 3 options, agree with me (my preferred option but hardly the one I am expecting), agree in part but suggest changes that contain NO OTHER COLOURS, or disagree on the basis that Red should never have card drawing abilities (apart from the ones it already has). Even if you have the last opinion, feel free to post here.

Edit : using verbs helps convey meaning

[Jacob Orlove]

Red gets two kinds of card drawing: wheel of fortune style new hands, and stuff with uncertain outcomes (coin flips, opponent can stop it by taking damage, etc). This doesn't fit.

I'd be fine if you had to flip a coin to draw the card, or if there was some other way that the card draw was not guaranteed. Or if it was draw, then discard 1 at random.

[Matt]

I'm going to go ahead and object to this on a power level, too. Compare to Ophidian, which was a fair card and used in every constructed format it has ever been legal in: one more mana gets you +2/+0, AND it gets to be in the color that draws the LEAST cards? No way. This would probably have to csot 4R at least. It could cost 3U, but then having the ability trigger on direct damage is off-color.

Of the three choices, I'm going to go with "red should never have this ability".

[Malhavoc]

It could be "draw a card, then discard a card at random". This would be more red-flavored. But if you really want card advantage (and I'm not too sure it is a good idead), you could try something like "discard a card at random, then draw a card", which is really card advantage when you have no cards in hand.

[Ephraim]

It is my opinion that some variant of this card is probably fair. I don't know if it should be a creature, though. An enchantment would probably be more appropriate. It is not in red's nature to be efficient to begin with (ie: getting a useful card drawer and a 3/3 body). Nor is this ability quite weak enough to go on a 3/3 body without increasing its cost from Hill Giant. However, this would make a very appropriate enchantment, maybe even at .

My big concern is why people think it's fair for green to get card drawers (Fecundity, Kavu Lair, Overwhelming Urge, Hystrodon, Collective Unconscious, Primitive Etchings) but not for red to have something that plays on its strengths.

Another way that this idea could be made more fair would be to make it symmetrical: Whenever a spell or ability deals 3 or more damage to a player, that spell or ability's controller may draw a card. That makes it much less useful in the mirror match.

[dandan]

Matt - behave, you are just trying to provoke by comparing this to the mighty 'Phid. There is a world of difference between 3 and 4cc, most decks start start to get unreliable at dropping that fourth land (well, decks that run 3/3 creatures do anyway). You are so much less likely to be able to draw cards it is untrue (does it really help you if you can cast a 4cc spell then reel off 3 or more direct damage spells that do at least 3 damage. That sure looks like a win more effect to me. as far as the higher power when comparing a Blue creature with a lower casting cost to a Red one with higher casting cost, of course I expect a higher power.

Jacob - I agree that is what Red has had in the past although I disagree that we should always create cards that follow what has been done before.

Malhavoc - a very good point a very in flavour for Red. However I think the chance of drawing a card is low enough that it can be a full draw rather than a discard+draw. I am also a little tired of Madness and graveyard enablers. I think I will use your suggestion on some other card as that is very Red card drawing.

Ephraim - I have changed the card so it is symmetrical as I like the idea that it affects everyone - chaos is not picky about who it rewards. I disagree that Grey Ogre should be used as a benchmark, there are a number of far stronger cards in Red for 4 mana although I guess I could make it 2RR. I agree it could be an Enchantment but Red should have enabler creatures (Ogre Shamen springs to mind) far more than enabler Enchantments whereas in Green I think the situation should be the reverse.

So, I have reduced the card's power level a little by making it symmetrical, I might be persuaded into making it 2RR further weakening it. I can't accept that 3R is too cheap for a 3/3 with a reasonable ability although I take Matt's point that a very good ability would take it up to 3RR or 4R.

[Ephraim]

The way it's worded doesn't quite work, I think. The requirement of dealing damage to an opponent refers only to your opponents. In a duel, your opponent would have to deal 3+ damage to him- or herself to draw cards. If it must be damage dealt by a player to one of that player's opponents, you may need to word it in a very clunky manner...something about if that player is an opponent of the controller of the spell...it's very ugly. Better I think to just reward damage to any player. Dealing 3+ chunks of damage to oneself in order to get cards isn't exactly a great idea.

[dandan]

Changed from 'opponent' to 'player'. I guess chaos isn't that fussy about who gets toasted.

[dandan]

Seeing as we still appear to be strongly divided over this, I will try to find a compromise solution.

I think the 'draw a card' bit is the problem

How about this guy has the Fork ability? Naturally it would need a RR activation cost and flavour-wise I would want it to affect only spells that cause damage (alternatively Red Sorceries and Instants)

It is a bit of a cop-out but it is sort of Red card drawing but not in the traditional sense.

[Matt]

Fork is acceptable, depending on how exactly you word it.

[combo_dude]

Doesn't Mischevous Quanar put Fork into blue now though?

[Jebus]

Copy effects span accross both Red and Blue currently.

[rvs]

The real question is: Do you want this to be strong, or just randomly ok (also for limited).

[dandan]

I made it Red Instants and Soceries. I think the effect is fairly weak but I think the RR is needed to avoid crazy burn out scenarios and I don't really think this creature should copy stuff like card drawing or damage prevention. In Limited he is still a 3/3 for 4 mana and you might get a use out of the ability so he is playable. I can't see him making any Constructed decks though (I might consider him for my Flare/Zap deck though).
To be honest I don't think any of the versions of this card were destined for Constructed glory.

[dandan]

24/72 hour clock thingy as my new suggestion is sooooooo good that nobody can suggest anything better.

[Matt]

You're going to need a real name before starting the clock. And probably change the creature type as well.

[dandan]

OK Orgg Shamen it is, the world needs more Orggs and Ogre Shamen has already been used.

(I did consider Albino Ogre with the flavour text 'Being white and blue means that more than insults are hurled at you'. I decided the world was not ready for that)