Boltbait - Rare Ogre that draws cards for Red

[Jacob Orlove]

Orgg Shaman is waaaaaaay too similar to Ogre Shaman.

[dandan]

I could be persuaded to go with Albino Ogre

[Ephraim]

Suggested Name: Fire Speaker
Creature Type: Ogre Shaman (not Shamen)

Red no longer gets Wizards. They may have even mentioned it around the beginning of Mirrodin block, but Red and Green get Shamans instead of Wizards, which are the staple creature-type of Blue. I think that the position of random magic-wielder is filled by Clerics in White and Black.

This should definitely be an ogre. As far as creature sizes go, Orggs are all 6/6 creatures. Ogre is a very appropriate type for a 3/3 creature, though.

[Matt]

Ephraim wins this debate, in my opinion. That's a great name and still maanges to include the shaman type.

[dandan]

It hard to argue with someone who can spell. Besides I knew that if I threatened with my flavour text someone would have to come up with a decent name. Even MaRo flinches at my flavour text.
Changes made

[Ephraim]

Quick fix: Capitalize the word "Speaker" in the card name.

[GerryMander]

Please, oh please make this a ability!

[dandan]

Do you think that you will be able to cast 2+ Red Instants or Sorceries and have access to a spare RRRR or are you worried that an opponent might cast lots of Red spells when you have RRRR or more open? I don't think power level dictates that Tap is necessary.

From a flavour point of view Red is the antithesis of White and Blue's power from concentration. Red is about impulse, speed, raw emotion. So from a flavour point of view I don't think the ability needs to Tap.

In addition Ogres should be aggressive. If your 3/3 can't attack because you want him to Tap (and pay RR) in order to copy a Bolt he is about as useful as a chocolate teapot.

I think a different card could be made with the ability

Tap, reveal a Red card in your hand: You may play a copy of that spell (i.e. pay all costs)

The CC of such a creature would have to be a lot higher as that is a far far more powerful ability (Relentless Assault, Bolt, even Shatter)

10 years of Magic has shown us that Fork is not as powerful as it looks, largely because Red is not good at being reactive.

[Sheera]

A while ago, R.Buehler mentioned in one of his friday columns that the word "stack" is too complex/abstract a concept to put upon a card, especially for beginners. Wizards therefore came up with another way to template cards like Fork, thereby completely avoiding that term. You might want to change the Shaman's wording to either "Copy target red instant or sorcery spell. You may choose new targets for that copy.", cf:

Mischievous Quanar

Creature -- Beast
3/3
{U}: Turn Mischievous Quanar face down.
Morph {U} (You may play this face down as a 2/2 creature for . Turn it face up any time for its morph cost.)
When Mischievous Quanar is turned face up, copy target instant or sorcery spell. You may choose new targets for that copy.

or to this Mirrodin-Block variant: "Copy target red instant or sorcery spell and play the copy without paying its mana cost.", cf:

Reversal of Fortune
{R}
Sorcery
Target opponent reveals his or her hand. You may copy an instant or sorcery card in it and play the copy without paying its mana cost.


The name should certainly be written as one word, "Firespeaker" like "Fireshrieker" and the "Red" in the rules text should be de-capitalized.

Otherwise the Shaman is a very cool card. I don't think it needs a tap-symbol in its activation cost, since a four mana toughness-3 critter that only copies red spells (i.e. no card drawing) should really be balanced and fragile enough to warrant "print".

[dandan]

It just occured to me that this ability is quite close to Chain Lightning now since most Red Instants and Sorceries are likely to be direct damage.

As a result I thought it might be flavourful to allow any players to use the ability. What do you think? Obviously the Monored mirror match would be very entertaining although I am not sure if the Shaman becomes more or less likely to become boltbait as a result.

Power level is not really an issue so I have no problem making the Ogre worse. I think he becomes more attractive to Casual players if anyone can copy Red spells (assuming RR) and the RR strongly link to 2 of Reds old warhorses Fork and Chain Lightning. How cool is it to reprint Hill Giant, Fork and Chain Lightning on one card?

[Ephraim]

Yeah, making this guy a little bit weaker wouldn't hurt anything. For his cost, I think you're getting a real bargain in that ability, as it is. You're going to get the same value from it, even if your opponent can use it, so it isn't a tremendous penalty, especially since even in casual, you're probably going to see another monored deck no more than 1/5 of the time.

[dandan]

Modified so anyone can use the ability ('chaos doesn't care who it affects') and also added a one use per turn clause to prevent you copying multiple times (turn 4 this, turn 5 Bolt RR Bolt RR Bolt).

I don't think he is a real bargain just reasonably costed. Hill Giant is a sad excuse of a creature, Northern Paladin occupies the mid-sized White creature slot that is the cesspool of creatures (Mercenaries!!) and his ability is very very good but not a problem as White creatures facing Black decks have a problem with life expectancy. In Constructed this guy can't compete with Arc Slogger (pay RR and deal 4 damage without the need for a DD spell) and in Limited you aren't likely to have that much to copy (he would still be a fairly high draft pick but not a first pick).  Not that Forking a Stone Rain by paying RRR2 is cute but not something of major concern. Having said that I would change him to affect only direct damage spells if that could be done in a simple elegant way.

Note that this card is very cute in a deck packing the RRRRRRRR Pirate Frenzy card in the CCF.

[Ephraim]

I'm not sure if that wording is correct. Mind, I don't know what the correct wording should be, in this case. I've never seen an ability that could be used by both players but only once each turn. From a templating standpoint, I suppose that could work, since "Any play may play this ability. Use this ability only once each turn." imples that only you may use the ability only once each turn. I'd like another voice on the matter, though, unless you can site a source that provide precedence for that wording.

[dandan]

It was a hurried patch as I realised that you could multiple Fork stuff but I think it is a fairly standard condition and it does allow several people to Fork stuff, although only once each. I couldn't think of an easy way to allow you to Fork each spell once but not to Fork the copies (I don't want to go down the slippery slope of Storm). The main thing is to avoid 3x Fireblast for RRRR and the like. As a result allowing the ability once once per player per turn is a simpler solution (I don't want to have to Tap him for the reasons I have already mentioned)

[Matt]

I couldn't think of an easy way to allow you to Fork each spell once but not to Fork the copies

So make it copy "target spell card". Storm copies, Isochonr Scepter copies, and tokens are not cards - when you say 'card' you mean a standard magic card, the kind that starts the game in your library.

[Ephraim]

Is a spell on the stack still considered a "card" though? I thought that they had very specific rules for the identity of cards in different zones. I was under the impression that unless a card was in your hand, library, or graveyard, it was a spell or a permanent, not a card.

I have a solution that works, I believe, but it's not the simplest block of text ever written.

Whenever any player plays a red instant or sorcery spell from his or her hand, each player may pay {R}. Each player who does may copy that spell and play the copy without without paying its mana cost.

The fact that it's a triggered ability results in it triggering only once for each red instant or sorcery -- and only when it's played from somebody's hand (reducing its sexiness with Pirate Frenzy, alas).

[Matt]

200.1. When a rule or text on a card refers to a "card," it means a Magic card with a Magic card front and the Magic card back. Tokens aren't considered cards-even a card that represents a token isn't considered a card for rules purposes.

A card is a card, no matter where it is. Even if a Clone comes into play copying a Wurm token, the Clone is still a card, and can be sacrificed to Infernal Tribute.

Infernal Tribute
{B}{B}
Enchantment
, Sacrifice a nontoken permanent: Draw a card.

[Ephraim]

The rules text is compelling, but I'm not sure what it has to do with Infernal Tribute. It doesn't say to sacrifice a card. It says to sacrifice a non-token permanent.

That aside, I'm still pretty sure that anymore, when they want an ability to be usable only once per event, they use a triggered effect (ala the "lucky charms"). They no longer remind you that an ability can only play the ability once each time the event happens, since that's automatically a function of the triggered ability.

[Matt]

Well it USED to say "sacrifice a card" but the point is that a card is always a card, even when it copies a non-card.

[thehordling]

This card is baroken. I bolt you, draw a card, oh look! chain lightning, draw a card. And it costs 0 mana to activate the ability, like necro. Fireblast for 0 mana, draw a card. I would quickly load my burn decks with lotus petal, lotus, anything that is cheap red mana to keep the chain going. Remember, skullclamp was to good because it gave aggro decks the gas they needed to go all game. Even if this is designed just for vintage it's a little too good.

On the subject of every color needing the ability to draw cards; I disagree. I will say that every color needs to work differently to add variety, but every color should be able to gain card advantage in some way or another. For blue, just raw card drawing is cool. For white: wrath of god type effects produce a similar effect. It's card advantage, just like with blue, but in a different way. The card advantage you gain with wrath of god also wastes mana that your opponent spent. It seems to balance out all right. Black uses negative card avantage with discard. Red can gain card advantage with mass artifact removal and flexible burn spells, and green.. um.. needs help, as it has for a long time. It can corner the market on big fatties, but this just isn't enough in type one. It might be able to generate card advantage with land fetching spells, and regrowth effects, but they need to improve the quality of these to see type one play. So while blue card advantage is the most easily recognizable, and most flexible in use, it does not affect the board position. But if sweep the board, that is also card advantage and erases some of your opponents investments.

[Ephraim]

1. Please don't double post.

2. Please note the "Current Wording" portion of the card, in which you shall find that the function of this card is no longer card drawing and is no longer free. It now allows you to spend {R} to copy a red instant or sorcery spell. You are encouraged to read the entire thread, so that you would know the discussion that led up to this point.

[dandan]

Holy time travel! It seems that Jacob is not the only one who can nip back to the past and post. I won't comment on the comments as the card has changed a lot since the original.

I have used Ephraim's latest wording as I like the idea of any amount of spells being copied, subject only to the availability of mana (any amount of fire, subject to access to fuel). It also has that Chain Lightning feel to it.

I think it is time to repeat - this card has a potentially powerful effect but is strongly limited to the 'win more' category. If you are playing Red, have access to RRR or more and have a fistful of burn you will be able to abuse this card. It is a concept card and is a bundle of fiery joy in multiplayer. Two headed giant and other team formats could abuse this card but there are plenty of other strong 'semi-combos' out there for those formats anyway.

I'll keep this thread open a little longer to allow debate on the new wording but I feel we are nearing completion

[dandan]

That 24/72 hour clock thing....

[Matt]

Closed and added.[/color]