[Article] Running the Vintage Gauntlet: R-Z

[Smmenen]

In part one we looked at some of the combo decks of Vintage. In part two we looked at mostly Control and Aggro-Control decks. In this article, we look primarily at the various Mishra's Workshop-based decks that Type One has spawned.

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=7466

I got alot of positive feedback on the last two parts of this series.  I tried a different approach with this article and I hope you guys like it.  Show, don't tell right?

Steve

[Jacob Orlove]

Awesome.

[xerxes]

Great article
Your WelderMud list is strange to say the least. There are no Welders and has Grid Monitor. You also mention Grafted Skullcap where the decklist doesn't contain it.

[Blackest Lotus]

Great read. I like the apporach you took with each deck showing strengths and weaknesses instead of "omg, the deck is draw reliant, sukz the Tog, dies, but good." Etc., etc.

However, you should have mentioned about Mindslaver being Chalice, Trini and 3Sphere, Tangle Wire, and Smokestack all rolled into one.

Excellent work.

[Smmenen]

Thank you.  I suddenly realized that my little hypothetical games were the whle point of my article series - I just described it instead of showing it.  And as my High School English teacher would say "show, don't tell."  

I would have included a better Welder Mud list (I took it from the SCG decks to beat list), but I only have finite time, and I really didn't have an extra minute to devote to this article.  I've been a busy motherfucker.

I'll be in NC for the weekend, so I look forward to seeing the replies on Sunday

Steve

[Grand Inquisitor]

Nice article.

Not to nitpick, but there's something I'm not understanding:

Chalice for two is an extremely powerful play in this deck because it creates a very nice tempo advantage

I thought tempo was about expanding resources (mana) and/or using them more effectively (acc spells).  Therefore, chalice, which negates an opponent's ability to play spells, has no effect on their tempo, because they're not even bothering to cast them (waste mana/tempo).  Its certainly virtual card advantage, but I don't see how it relates to tempo.  Can someone (Steve) help me out?

[Addolorisi]

Therefore, chalice, which negates an opponent's ability to play spells, has no effect on their tempo, because they're not even bothering to cast them

But they're not bothering to cast them because they're stuck waiting to play their spells until they can remove the Chalice. It's tempo for you because having to wait creates negative tempo for them. (Ancestrall Recall versus Mind Twist, for a card advantage related example.) While you're correct that it is virtual card advantage, that only lasts while it's in play. It's correct to assume that it will be removed, and to use Chalice as a way to gain tempo instead of thinking of it purely in terms of virtual card advantage.

[skecreatoR]

Turn Two:
P1: Attack with Lackey, play Siege-Gang Commander. Make three tokens. Wasteland your Workshop...
P2: "..."

Ha ha ha!

I laughed out loud as a nazi from an Indiana Jones movie when I read that.

Without doubt, in my mind, the number one article of the series. While the other were a great read, this is simply perfect. Thank you.

[AggressiveDude]

"No, No, No! Sack first, then tap."

Awesome!

[PucktheCat]

Steve, great article.

@Grand Inquisitor and Addolorissi:

Some people like to think of the game purely in terms of card advantage, while some like to think of it in terms of tempo.  Most of the time, the concepts crisscross and interrelate in so many ways that almost any good play can be interpreted either way.

The fact is, Chalice is reducing the number of effects your opponent will play over the course of the game, sometimes in a way that looks like what we would call card advantage, sometimes in a way that looks like tempo advantage.

And of course, we know why Steve described it as tempo.  Card advantage is irrelevant, right Steve   .

Leo

[bebe]

I really enjoyed this article. It has the Missouri touch - 'the show me' state. Your last two articles have been entertaining and informative - something transparent yet difficult to achieve.

I could nit nit pick a few of your lists as well but I'll just make one comment. Ravanger indeed may be a deck of the future. It needs some devoted vintage adepts to spend time optimizing a list. I am curious that no Arcbound Crushers ever appear in the lists for this deck anymore. I'm well aware of its early fragility and casting cost but if it hits the table and remains a turn or two, it is usually game for your opponent. Maybe worth a look or two in Ravanger decks.

This deck has done a vanishing act. It appeared briefly, did rather well, and now has almost vanished from the scene. The reason appears to be that although this deck is strong, it only takes some marginal adjustments for other decks to fight it so that they can at least compete.

Isn't that the case for many of the top decks? I think if a deck has not shown clear superiority over the field, the most competitive players will continue to look for either a great meta game deck or a very consistent and proven winner like 4c control or Tog.

[kerensky]

I really like this article and the series itself although it was overshadowed by Oscar's Fifth Dawn review.

[Razvan]

I really like this article and the series itself although it was overshadowed by Oscar's Fifth Dawn review.

What? Is this sarcastic, or? Oscar's article is one of his better ones, lately, but it didn't really have much...

Bennie Smith summed it up best:

June 11, 2004
Firing Up Fifth Dawn, Part I: Creatures
by Oscar Tan

Again, our rules for sizing up new creatures:
1) All new creatures suck in comparison to the awesome Type 1 creatures
2) See Rule #1

[Eddie]

Great read. I really loved the article. But can you explain this in your welderMUD example:

P2: First main phase: Wasteland a land. In response, Cunning Wish for Rack and Ruin. Second Main phase. Tap Worker and reveal: Smokestack, Tangle Wire, Mox, Grafted Skullcap, and Metalworker, (holding City of Traitors.) Play Smokestack, Ok. Tangle Wire, Force of Will. Grafted Skullcap. Ok. Metalworker. Ok.

Turn Three:
P1: Land. Go.
P2: Tap down Metalworker and Workshop and Grafted Skullcap.

So, the Tangle Wire is forced, but P2 still taps his permanents the next turn. Doesn't seem fair to me.   Not that it matters much in your example...

[Thug]

I might be a little sceptical, but does this tell us something we didn't know already?

Most of the decks are outdated, or simply suboptimal. IMO every decent player could have wrote down these down from memory.

Not taking the time to write down a Welder-MUD list yourself is a serious lack of interest IMO.

This article really seemed like an article you had to write, not one you liked writing and admitted much time to.

Compared to your previous articles I would say this is some kind of self-insult.

No offense,

Koen

(I expected some view of new versions of these decks. Icluding cards like Plunge into Darkness, Ironwork etc)

[Addolorisi]

The fact is, Chalice is reducing the number of effects your opponent will play over the course of the game, sometimes in a way that looks like what we would call card advantage, sometimes in a way that looks like tempo advantage.

*shrugs*
I still disagree for the most part, since it's only card advantage if it's never removed (or cards are played into it). At least from my perspective, it seems that Chalices die often enough that thinking that you'll gain card advantage by playing it is an incorrect assumption that may (not often though) cause errors in game play. I do see your point though, so I'll wait to see if Steve says anything when he comes back.

(Also, if you're unsure how to spell my name, you can C+P it.)

[defector]

I understand the generic reasons behind chalice but I think they miss the point.  Chalice is in the deck and set to 2 to keep Null Rod and Artifact Muatation from resolving.  Then you fight over shaman or if they don't run one main, you win.  Stopping mana drain is nice, but thats secondary.  Chalice for 2 stops almost all the hate that is directed at you except for R&R and Shaman.  Also, you will occasioally get a hand where you go Chalice for 1, Chalice for 2, and Chalice for 3, generating a hard lock that results in the big men swingng for the win.  Against 3 color tog, I'v had games that saw a chalice for 2 get forced out and then chalice for 3, scoop.
defector

[Ric_Flair]

Steve, I would like to commend you on yet another excellent series of articles.  In the first part of this series you mentioned that you were going to try to rank the decks, giving them star assignments.  Though this is not as handy as what you did, I would be interested in those ratings now, after the fact.  Thanks.

[gongmeister]

I think the chalice is pretty suboptimal.  Even with Mirsha's Workshop, it's pretty hard to chalice for more than three.  What if your opponent plays a BESERK MURDOLONT.  Then u will just luze.dec

[combo_dude]

I think the chalice is pretty suboptimal.  Even with Mirsha's Workshop, it's pretty hard to chalice for more than three.  What if your opponent plays a BESERK MURDOLONT.  Then u will just luze.dec

PLEASE stop going on about this. It was funny the first time. Now it's a pain in the ass.

Smmenen - great article, again. Laid out all the detail that anyone will need for a metagame understanding exceptionally well.