Why would you ever play that over Hulk?.dec

[PucktheCat]

Alright, here is a slightly odd deck hybridization that I have been toying around with.  I posted it in Newbie because it seems likely that it is really bad.  I have tested it a bit and I haven’t figured out why it is bad yet, but I know there is a reason.  I want some input to help me forget about this awful pile.  If someone can tell me definitively why this doesn’t work, I will save lots of time thinking about it.  If someone has actually tested it, or something like it, that would be even better.

The idea behind this deck is that the old Rector Trix/Rector Tendrils decks suffered from two problems that were unrelated to the combo itself: poor mana bases and weak win conditions.  The first problem, in my opinion, was a result of to much focus on how to get a Rector into play and too little focus on how to get one in your hand.  The second problem compounded the inconsistency by taking up to much space to run a good secondary draw engine.

With those two issues in mind I set about creating a deck that had a mana base and a draw engine that worked well on their own (without Rector).  When looking for a good, stable, draw engine I immediately came to Hulk.

Hulk and Rector actually work in somewhat similar ways as combos.  Hulk is a one card combo that requires you to have seen around 25-30 card to work.  Rector is a two card combo, but one of the cards (Therapy) is strong on its own and doesn’t need to resolve to fuel the combo.  That means that Hulk and Rector have about the same basic threshold for lethality: if I see enough cards from my deck with this creature in play, I will win.  Since any given four-of will turn up almost all the time in 25-30 cards that means Rector and Tog will become lethal at about the same time (with perhaps a slight edge to Rector in speed, because 50% of the time he will be lethal right away, and to Tog in consistency because he won’t have any games where you draw 30 cards and still can’t find the one you want).

Hulk wins right away if it casts Cunning Wish for Berserk, of course, but putting Mask of the Mimic in the sideboard duplicates that effect.

In order to make room for all the draw effects and controlling nonsense I wanted to have so that the deck would work when I didn’t have a Rector I had to cut the 5 or so win conditions that Rector Trix needs to run.  I figured with Cunning Wish in the deck I could probably find something to win with if I got infinite cards, so I added a Words of Worship to the deck to fetch with Rector after the Bargain is in play.  That means I can rely on Cunning Wish to do the actual killing and I am left with only one bad card in the deck instead of 5.  The actual kill I ended up with was Beast Attack/Brain Freeze.

Here is what I put together.

Blue (23):
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
4 Brainstorm
4 Accumulated Knowledge
3 Cunning Wish
2 Intuition
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

Off-color (14):
4 Academy Rector
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth’s Will
1 Necropotence (Jacob is probably right that this should go)
1 Yawgmoth’s Bargain
1 Words of Worship
1 Balance

Mana (23):
7 SoLoMoxen
1 Mana Crypt
5 Fetchland
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
2 City of Brass
1 Island

Sideboard (just the Wish targets, for now):
1 Mask of the Mimic
1 Dark Ritual
1 Hunting Pack
1 Oxidize
1 Naturalize
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Brainfreeze

Basically, this deck is a Tog deck that wins with a slightly different absurd combo.  It runs the same draw engine, disruption, and mana acceleration.  It doesn’t have room for Deep Analysis, but it make excellent use of Intuition nonetheless because it can be used to fetch Therapies and win the game.

The obvious question is – why would anyone play this over Tog?

Here is why: this deck can win faster than Tog and will rarely win more slowly.  On average this deck will be playing with lethal Rectors on turn two.  By the time the deck has seen the 30 or so cards Tog needs to see to be lethal Rector will be lethal 95% of the time.*  This deck also avoids much of the hate (especially REB) that is directed at Hulk.  Rector requires specific tools to deal with, Hulk can be stopped by a wider variety of anti-creature measures.

Here is the other side, of course.  This deck is inconsistent compared to Hulk because of its dead cards (especially Words, but also Necro and Bargain) and need for three colors early in the game.  It also will occasionally simply not draw a Therapy, although that is far less likely than that it will draw a Therapy long before Hulk would be lethal.  Additional, but more minor issues are that Rector is 4cc (but that is counterbalanced by the lower colored requirement, I think) and that he can’t be removed from the game for Force.  Also, Cabal Therapy is weaker than Duress.

Anyway, I thought this idea was worth presenting, more because I think there is a possibility for some sort of dramatic rearrangement of Rector out there than that I think this deck itself is particularly good.  I am interested to see people’s reaction.


*Here are the numbers:

A 20 pt. Tog, under fairly good circumstances, needs 7 cards in hand + 15 in the grave.  It also will usually have at least 4 cards in play (3 land + Tog).  That is 26 cards.

Rector will be lethal when one of the 4 Cabal Therapies is drawn.  Statistically, this will happen according to this progression:

Cards seen:                 Rector Lethal:
7                                 44%
8                                 49%
10                               57%
15                               72%
20                               83%
25                               90%
30                               95%

Brainstorm and Tutors helps Rector more than Hulk, because Hulk needs to keep the cards to grow.  Fetchlands help Hulk a bit more.

[Jacob Orlove]

It seems like this deck can't really afford to take damage while setting up the kill.

You're still vulnerable to random graveyard hate, and your AKs are worthless against anything else that runs them.

Necro seems like a poor choice without rituals, and Words of Worship + Bargain is the ultimate in "win more".

[PucktheCat]

It seems like this deck can't really afford to take damage while setting up the kill.

Why is this more true here than any other Bargain deck?  Aggro is even less of a problem for this deck than it is for Hulk, because you can simply Intuition for the missing combo piece rather than mucking about with drawing cards and Berserking.

You're still vulnerable to random graveyard hate, and your AKs are worthless against anything else that runs them.

You are vulnerable to grave hate, but you are much stronger against creature hate.  Tormod's Crypt is much weaker against this deck than REB is against Hulk.  Coffin Purge is bad, but most people are going down to one Purge and sticking with 3 REB.

Necro seems like a poor choice without rituals, and Words of Worship + Bargain is the ultimate in "win more".

What can replace it?  You have to actually finish off your opponent somehow.  I would LOVE to cut this, but every other option needs two cards.  Running this card lets me use Cunning Wish for the kill, which gives me flexibiliy.  Something like Illusions/Donate may take less steps to win, but it is actually the win more combo, because you are using more of your deck to win after Bargain resolves and less to actually get the Bargain into play.

As for Necro, I am still undecided about that.  It could be a third Intuition.  It is mostly there for when you draw Bargain, but it might be better to just hope for Brainstorm or try to hardcast Bargain.

Leo

[Jacob Orlove]

It seems like this deck can't really afford to take damage while setting up the kill.

Why is this more true here than any other Bargain deck?  Aggro is even less of a problem for this deck than it is for Hulk, because you can simply Intuition for the missing combo piece rather than mucking about with drawing cards and Berserking.

Because you don't run Rituals, ESGs, or other "extra" acceleration (although you do run drain)--instead you run somewhat slower blue spells. That's not necessarily worse, but it means that you're more likely to take some damage while you set up a drain or a rector.

My aggro comparison wasn't between this and hulk, but this and regular rector decks--for whom aggro is a bye.

Is this any better than Tog against Slaver? Instead of losing your hand and graveyard, you just lose the game.

I think trying to hardcast bargain might be the better call if it's actually in your hand--you do run drains, after all.

Words requires that you find it or another rector+therapy, plus you need a lot of white mana. With such a land-heavy manabase, you may have trouble casting all that stuff after getting out bargain--and fastbond wouldn't help, because of the life loss. Plus, you need to cast a ton of cards for brainfreeze to work, and you give them a chance to untap and possibly burn you out on the upkeep.

It seems to me that tendrils + dark rituals just make more sense. Then you can really run necro, too, and possibly desire as well--those cards just win you the game. 2 tendrils is one more card than 1 words, and you can play it before bargain if storm is high enough.

Doesn't running AKs make your tog matchup awful?

[PucktheCat]

The problem with two Tendrils over Words is that you won't always draw the Tendrils in your first 15-19 cards.  That is why I went for Words - it can be Fetched by Rector.  The deck isn't really much of a Storm builder, either.  Without having most of its deck in hand it might not get up to 10 spells.

It may be that this is weaker against aggro than other Rector decks.  My hope would be that it if that is the case I am trading a strength against one deck for strength against another.  In particular, this deck would hope to be able to play the control game with the big boys if it didn't get a win-now hand.

As for the Hulk matchup, I know AK mirrors are very frustrating, but I guess I don't see that it makes it a bad matchup.  We are BOTH out our draw engines, after all.  He has DA, which is good, but he also has to deal with the chance that we will just win.  As I see it, it is very close to a mirror match, obviously.  Really, though he has only Coffin Purge to stop us.

Thank you for the thoughtful responses.

Leo

Edit: This wouldn't be better against Slaver if they actually slave you.  It might be better able to win before that happened though.  I have tested this against aggro, Fish, and Hulk, but not Slaver.

[Jacob Orlove]

The problem with two Tendrils over Words is that you won't always draw the Tendrils in your first 15-19 cards.  That is why I went for Words - it can be Fetched by Rector.  The deck isn't really much of a Storm builder, either.  Without having most of its deck in hand it might not get up to 10 spells.

Well, storm is why I suggested the Rituals too. Rituals also let you get out a turn 1/2 rector much more often, and they make YawgWill much easier to pull off. Plus, the first tendrils can give you enough life to find the second, or the yawgwill, even if storm is only at like 6.

I don't think finding tendrils in the first 15-19 cards is that big a problem, but if it is, you could add Mystical Tutor to the side, to make your Cunning Wishes lethal again.

Incidentally, what exactly is "8 Artifact Mana"? 7 SoLoMox and Crypt? Could you use Petal or Diamond too?

[PucktheCat]

Ritual is just so bad without Rector though.  My point with this incarnation of the deck was to try to preserve as much of the strength of the Hulk shell as I could.

It may be that this deck inevitably slides back towards the purer combo version or forward into a standard Hulk, in which case it will simply fall to the "there can be only one" doctrine, but I am not entirely conviced that those are the only two choices.  Going with a Ritual/Tendrils version of the deck would involve giving yourself some really bad games (when you draw a bunch of crappy acceleration) in exchange for getting some amazing ones (when the combo goes down turn 1-2).  I feel like traditional Rector-Tendrils made this trade one too many times and gave away all its consistency for a chance a brokenness.

Incidentally, what exactly is "8 Artifact Mana"? 7 SoLoMox and Crypt? Could you use Petal or Diamond too?

You've got it.  Edited in the original post.  These are the only good artifact mana.  It may be that the others belong, but as I said above, I was trying to see if I could preserve the control deck strength of Hulk when I built this.

I guess my question is - Just because the kill is technically a combo, does that mean that the deck can't run independently efficient cards?  No one tries to get Germbus to run Mox Diamond to accelerate out Exalted Angel.

Words requires that you find it or another rector+therapy, plus you need a lot of white mana. With such a land-heavy manabase, you may have trouble casting all that stuff after getting out bargain--and fastbond wouldn't help, because of the life loss. Plus, you need to cast a ton of cards for brainfreeze to work, and you give them a chance to untap and possibly burn you out on the upkeep.

That's true, but it is more likely you will find a Rector (or the Words themselves) than a Tendrils I think.

You don't need white mana for Words, colorless works.

Most of the time once you get Bargain + Words into play you can afford to spend a turn or two getting to the actual kill.  You usually have 20+ life a turn to give to aggro and burn and anything that actually threatens you more seriously can be dealt with by drawing a Force or Drain in response.  Besides, Therapies should ensure that your opponent is quite docile by this time, and a few more can make sure they stay that way.  

Really, I know many people concede when Bargain comes into play, but people often lose with a Bargain in play.  When Words+Bargain is in play it really is over.  The only limitation on your control is usually the number of cards left in your library.  If the deck wasn't only 60 cards it could kill with Rector beatdown without losing control of the game.

Leo

[honkeyb5]

Perhaps i'm not following this at all, or i need better reading glasses.  What's the maindeck kill card in this deck?  Academy Rector?  To fetch Bargain and Words of Worship?  Which makes you win how?

[PucktheCat]

Awesome, at least I confused someone.  I know I'm doing something right.

Here's the deal:  Once you resolve Bargain you can draw a whole ass-load of cards.    At that point you can use another Rector to fetch Words of Worship, which lets you replace each Bargain draw with a gain five life effect, netting you effectively unlimited cards.  Once you have unlimited cards you can cast Cunning Wish for Beast Attack and make a dozen Beasts to actually do the formal work of ending the game.

The reason for this absurdly convoluted process of going from having the game in hand to actually having won it is simple.  If you build a deck that is entirely full of cards to get Bargain into play then once Bargain is in play you really won't have anything good to draw with it.  It would be nice if there was something you could Wish for that would simply let you end the game, but there isn't so you have to mess around with drawing lots of cards until you can make Beast Attack good enough to do the job.

So to answer your question, there is no maindeck kill card.  Not one.  The reason: because kill cards suck.

Leo

[AngryPheldagrif]

Awesome, at least I confused someone.  I know I'm doing something right.

Once you have unlimited cards you can cast Cunning Wish for Beast Attack and make a dozen Beasts to actually do the formal work of ending the game.

Suggestions:

-1 Misnaming of card

+1 Editing of post to change the Sideboard to include the proper [card]Hunting Pack[/card]. As opposed to [card]Beast Attack[/card].


As for the deck itself, all you've really accomplished is to reduce the speed of the deck going off by several turns. Either play Hulk or play Rector, but playing spin the bottle with Tier 1 decks is going to be about as successful as my Hulk-Nought or Parfait Slaver  

-Dan

[PucktheCat]

I'll make that correction.  That's what I get for making a post at work without my list in front of me.

Your other comment is simply not true, however.  This deck may be strictly worse than Hulk, hence the post title, but it is much more consistent than other Rector decks.  It has, basically, one completely dead card if it doesn't draw a Rector.

However, this thread has done much to help me put this deck (that I really have little interest in actually playing) out of my mind.  The deal is, it may be a metagame deck in some situations, like a number of other wierd things, but Hulk is just too much more consistent.

Leo

[AngryPheldagrif]

Your other comment is simply not true, however.  This deck may be strictly worse than Hulk, hence the post title, but it is much more consistent than other Rector decks.  It has, basically, one completely dead card if it doesn't draw a Rector.

Consistency my ass, if you want consistency play Island.dec. The reason people play Rector is because it wins hard and fast. To sum up my feelings on this topic;

How in heck do you intend to accumulate         , the casting cost of Cunning Wish for Hunting Pack, before your opponent either wins or gets so bored they forfeit anyways?

You don't even run Dark Ritual for god's sake. AND your Beasts require another turn to kill.

There's just no reason to run this over anything, let alone Hulk or Rector.

[honkeyb5]

So to answer your question, there is no maindeck kill card.  Not one.  The reason: because kill cards suck.

Um....no.

Instead of dicking around with useless cards (Hunting Pack/Words of Worship), why don't you cut them for Tendrils/Another Brain Freeze.  Like, maindeck, so you can draw into one of them instead of relying on wasting 3 mana and a card to dig them out of your sideboard.

[PucktheCat]

How in heck do you intend to accumulate     , the casting cost of Cunning Wish for Hunting Pack, before your opponent either wins or gets so bored they forfeit anyways?

That isn't hard at all.  Once you have Bargain + Words you should be able to get GG5 within a turn or two.  There is no reason to worry about extra turns once you have the ability to draw 20 cards in a turn, each turn, if necessary.

And, of course, if they forfeit that works just as well.

The reason people don't like giving their opponent turns in T1 is because they might . . . you know . . . DO SOMETHING on those turns.  Turns are somewhat less intimidating when they can't do anything to win the game.  What do you expect your opponent to do the turn after Hunting Pack resolves?  When it resolves you will probably have a decent amount of life and will have drawn most of your libarary last turn.  You also will probably have Cabal Therapied 3-4 times (including flashbacks) in the past few turns.  The game really is locked at that point.

Consistency my ass, if you want consistency play Island.dec. The reason people play Rector is because it wins hard and fast.

But the fact is, people don't play Rector.  That is because it is inconsistent.  This deck is substantially more consistent.

The problem that Rector decks have that this deck can't shake is the problem of drawing its enchantments.  The game really is locked if you get the combo, but stupid things like a Duress or even an Extract can take away an essential piece.  That is why this is (almost) strictly worse than Hulk.

However, if Rector decks want to evolve towards a more playable model they need to address some of the concerns that this deck addresses:

1.  8 Duress plan is too redundant.  A simple "hoser" like Coffin Purge wins too easily against that much discard.

2.  The choice between a bad win-condition with Forces (Trix style) and a good win-condition without Forces (Tendrils style) is a loser.  Rector will never move up the Vintage ladder running 5+ dead cards or running no Force.  Christ, is their any more important card than Force to have in your deck when you get out Bargain and have to give your opponent a turn before you can win?

3.  Everyone keeps saying the deck wins when Bargain is in play.  If that is the case then it needs to build absolutly the best deck at resolving a single card (Rector) that is available.  Since you draw a given 4-of less than 50% of the time in your opening 7, that means the deck needs a strong way to stall and draw until it gets the Rector.  Cards that only help when you either have a Rector in hand or are going off need to be cut, because those are the games we should win anyway.  Cards that make it more likely we will find the Rector when we don't have him need to be added, even if it means making winning with Bargain a bit less consistent.

Leo

[AngryPheldagrif]

Why don't you goldfish a few games and tell us when your average kill turn is?

[cssamerican]

2.  The choice between a bad win-condition with Forces (Trix style) and a good win-condition without Forces (Tendrils style) is a loser.  Rector will never move up the Vintage ladder running 5+ dead cards or running no Force.  Christ, is their any more important card than Force to have in your deck when you get out Bargain and have to give your opponent a turn before you can win?

This is a list I dug up from a year ago...(At the time this was the only deck I played)

Dreams of Agony
by: cssamerican

Lands - 14
3 Underground Sea
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Island

Creatures - 8
4 Academy Rector
4 Meddling Mage

Enchantments - 2
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Future Sight

Spells - 28
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Timetwister
1 Windfall
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Mind's Desire
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dark Ritual
2 Tendrils of Agony
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will

Artifacts - 8
1 Lotus Petal
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl

Sideboard - 15
SB: 3 Illusions of Grandeur
SB: 2 Donate
SB: 4 Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 6 Meta-Game Slots

The deck was very good, and it supported FoW and Mages to stop Coffin Purge or something of that nature. The Trix transformational sideboard was for the Stax match-up; however, I would side it in against fast aggro decks for the ability to gain twenty life, especially the ones in that ran Pryostatic Pillar at the time. I quite playing the deck when I started playing Long, but to be honest I am not really sure why I didn't start playing after Long's demise. I guess it just felt like a weaker version of Long after that.

I guess what I am trying to say is in todays metagame I could see this deck working. With Meddling Mages you have a way to protect your combo from non-duressable hate, and a 20 card blue count. Duress is not as good as most people think in this deck because it can't stop Coffin Purge, it can't remove Welders, and it can't stop top decks. It was my opinion a year ago, and still is today that this is about as best as a Rector deck can be.

And as a side note: I never cared for Necropotence in this deck. You will pretty much never retreive it with a Rector, so it is only usefull if it is your opening hand. And then it must be accompanied by a Dark Ritual or a Black Lotus; however, I do understand why people use it in this deck. It was just never that great for me when I played the deck.

Edit: Fixed some grammar

[PucktheCat]

cssamerican:  I like your deck idea in some respects, particularly cutting Duress.

Why Meddling Mage over some more traditional stoppers like Mana Leak or Drain?

If I took the advice of Jacob and others and added Dark Rituals + Tendrils for the kill our decks wouldn't be all that far apart, conceptually.  Meddling Mage in place of Drains, Draw-7s in place of Intuition-AK.

@AngryPheldagrif:  I have played it a fair amount already.  Not enough to consider it tested, but enough to answer your question.  It goldfishes (to the Bargain) by around turns 3-4.  That is a bit faster than Hulk goldfishes and a bit slower than traditional Rector Trix.  It is also a good deal more stable than Rector Trix and less stable than Hulk.

[Jacob Orlove]

The problem that Rector decks have that this deck can't shake is the problem of drawing its enchantments. The game really is locked if you get the combo, but stupid things like a Duress or even an Extract can take away an essential piece. That is why this is (almost) strictly worse than Hulk.

Extract simply doesn't see play, but a Timetwister would help solve the discard problem, although it might mess with your AKs.

[PucktheCat]

No, I know it doesn't.  It was supposed to be emphasizing how stupid you would feel if you lost to it, but it apparently didn't work.  Silly little things like Hymn to Tourach or a Memory Jar can easily remove all your win conditions.  Hulk simply doesn't have these issues.

Timetwister would solve.  I think I will mess around with cutting Duress from more traditional Rector variants and see if that gets me closer to where I want to be.  That would include Timetwister, obviously, and might have a second enchantment if the Bargain is removed somehow.

Leo

[cssamerican]

Why Meddling Mage over some more traditional stoppers like Mana Leak or Drain?

Because having more than FoW "the free" reactive spell for protection is not as good of a solution for a combo deck.
For example:

Turn 1
Play Underground Sea
Play Mox Sapphire
Play Mox Pearl
Play Cabal Therapy (Naming Force of Will)
Play Meddling Mage (Naming Coffin Purge)

Turn 2
Play Tundra
Play Academy Rector
Flashback Cabal Therapy (Naming whatever, Sacing the Rector, and fetching Bargain)

Of course this is an extreme example, but it illustrates the point I am trying to get across. To use Mana Leak to protect your combo you need at least 6 mana, 4 to play the Rector and two to cast the Mana Leak. If you play the proactive strategy you can utilize mana on early turns that otherwise would do very little for you. This way when you reach the 4 mana mark you can cast a Rector. This makes you faster especially if you are not sitting on a boat load of acceleration. And against some decks, Tog being a primary example, a turn 1 Mage naming Cunning Wish can be a much more severe problem game 1 than a Mana Leak.

As far a losing to discard, that is what Brainstorm is for, not to mention, if you starting hand has Bargain and you don't have a Brainstorm and a fetchland I would seriously think about mulling the hand anyway. A recuring Memory Jar would be bad, but that is not something that is going to happen with any regularity to speak of. Especially since against most welder based decks you will be naming the Welder with the Mage, and let us not forget, you would be a fool not to be running Yawgmoth's Will to recoup something if it was lost. I don't know how much you tested more traditional builds like mine, but they are much more reseliant in the right hands than your giving them credit for.

[PucktheCat]

cssamerican: I was contrasting this deck with Hulk when I spoke of discard.  While everything you mentioned works, Hulk simply doesn't have to worry about it at all, which is an advantage.  I understand that discard hardly makes this deck unplayable.

I guess my issue with Meddling Mage is that I feel like Mage is 1/2 a counterspell put on a mediocre creature.  He is good in decks that want a warm body to deal some damage to their opponent, but in a combo deck his body isn't that useful is it?

Leo

[cssamerican]

The Mage works well in this deck because of its proactive nature, its synergy with draw sevens, and if people keep or sideboard creature removal in to combat the Mages they are weakening their deck. I say this because I want to stress in this case it is not a weakness that the Mage is a creature. And its counterspell style is all you want or need in this type of deck. Unlike Dragon the only thing you fear is Stifle and graveyard removal. So this means cards like Ground Seal, Swords to Plowshares, BEB, Disenchant, Seal of Cleansing, and Naturalize are irrelevent as far as you are concerned. This allows you to utilize the Mage to a greater effect because your options of what hate cards to name are quite small...Tormod's Crypt, Coffin Purge, and Stifle.

I look at its role much like I do Xantid Swarm in Dragon. It isn't there to win the game, or for that matter control the game, it is only there to prevent your opponent from using Key cards that could stop you from winning the game. It does that specific task better that Mana Drain or Mana Leak.

And while we are on the this topic of proactive creatures, there is a nice side effect of your disruption being a creature. Rector/Bargain decks rely heavily on their life totals. One of the biggest misnomers is "If you get Bargain in play you win". That statement should always be followed by "If you have 15 or more life points at your disposal". Because of this sometimes having a possiblie turn 1 drop that is a 2/2 can be huge. For example, against Food Chain Goblins not only do you get to name Goblin Recruiter, but you can also block that turn one Goblin Lackey.

In a way this is where adapting the Hulk strategy to Rector is flawed. Hulk and Dragon can use their life totals as a buffer to by time. If there life total goes to one it doesn't mean anything as long as they can win before they lose another life point. Where as a Rector deck must cast and sac the Rector while they still have a significant life total if they want to actually use Bargain. This is why a Rector deck must be fast, this is why you should use Timetwister, Windfall, and Mind's Desire over AKs, and this is why I ran Future Sight (A way to draw cards without using life points to do so.)

[AngryPheldagrif]

@AngryPheldagrif:  I have played it a fair amount already.  Not enough to consider it tested, but enough to answer your question.  It goldfishes (to the Bargain) by around turns 3-4.  That is a bit faster than Hulk goldfishes and a bit slower than traditional Rector Trix.  It is also a good deal more stable than Rector Trix and less stable than Hulk.

[edit]: Of course it goldfishs faster than Hulk, Hulk is control!

I didn't ask when it got Bargain out. I asked what the average kill turn is. After getting Bargain out then you still need two more turns to win. How exactly do you plan to get the 10 mana for the Wish for Pack and enough to play enough spells to storm at least 5-6?

Stop dodging the question. I want to know how a deck with zilch for extra mana acceleration gets the 12-13 mana you need to win.

-Dan

[PucktheCat]

Um . . . this is control too . . . as much as Hulk is.  It has the same controlling cababilities as Hulk except for two less Deep Analysis and no Red in the sideboard.

How could this NOT get 10 mana and 5 or so Storm if it drew enough cards?

Mox Sapphire
Mox Jet
Mox Ruby
Mox Emerald
Mox Pearl
Sol Ring
Mana Crypt
Black Lotus

For upping Storm:
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy

For winning:
1 Yawgmoth's Will

Seven mana is really, really not a problem after you get Bargain.

Seriously, there are weaknesses to this deck, but winning after you get Bargain+Words really isn't one of them.

Leo

[AngryPheldagrif]

Um . . . this is control too . . . as much as Hulk is.  It has the same controlling cababilities as Hulk except for two less Deep Analysis and no Red in the sideboard.

This is combo. It wins by a combo and attempts to get this combo out ASAP. Therefore, its combo. Just because you have almost as much control as Hulk does not change the fact that your deck qualifies as Combo, while Hulk is Control.

How could this NOT get 10 mana and 5 or so Storm if it drew enough cards?

{snip}

For winning:
1 Yawgmoth's Will

Seven mana is really, really not a problem after you get Bargain.

So you're assuming play Bargain, play Wish for Pack and some spells the next turn, and then killing the next? This brings up several issues;

#1: I still don't see how you're going to get 12-13 mana (Wish for Pack plus a couple Storms/Therapies for the storm count). Assuming you get Bargain 4th turn, 5th turn you will have 5 lands. You need 7-8 worth of SoLoMoxen and that is just a stretch for me to see you getting that many.

#2: How the heck is Yawgmoth's Will winning? It lets you recast. . . .Lotus! 3 mana for 3 mana. How useful. You really need to consider the fact that just because a card is considered broken does not make it broken in all cases. Ditto for Time Walk, but I'll leave it alone because of the obscure chance that you can go Hunting Pack, Time Walk to win.

#3: As a best case scenario you're still talking about winning turn 5-6. What's the point of bastardizing the deck just too play a lousy win condition that will probably win as fast as Psychatog anyways? When a deck gets Yawgmoth's Bargain into play, barring an extremely unlucky draw (as in 19 land) or really low life total, it should win.

#4: You yourself said that this deck is terrible, and I'm telling you why. You're a Full TMD Member. I expect you to know the difference between combo and control, and I expect you to put serious thought into new deck ideas, rather than posting off the top of your head. I don't want you to list the SoLoMoxen and tell me that you win, I want to know how you win, when you win, and why you win. I don't care if this is the Newbie forum or Zherbus's private gold plated uber-forum. Put thought into your posts. Proofread. Not only do you still have the [card]Beast Attack[/card] instead of [card]Hunting Pack[/card], but your list also has [card]Words of Wisdom[/card] instead of [card]Words of Worship[/card].

-Dan

[PucktheCat]

Alright, I half considered not responding to this, but it is simply so bad that I couldn't let it go:

This is combo. It wins by a combo and attempts to get this combo out ASAP. Therefore, its combo. Just because you have almost as much control as Hulk does not change the fact that your deck qualifies as Combo, while Hulk is Control.

Wow.  This is so wrong it is scary.

The strategy of Hulk.dec and this deck are effectively identical.  Both play the same control base and a combo finish.  The fact that one uses two identifiable cards in its combo and one uses a large number of random cards doesn't change this fact.

In fact, the decks have an almost perfect card-for-card equivalency.

Control base = Control base
Rector = Psychatog (see original post for a discussion of their conditions for lethality - functionally they both serve as finishers)
Cabal Therapy = Duress
Cunning Wish -> Mask of Mimic = Cunning Wish -> Berserk

Hulk.dec has been combo-control since it was created and this deck fits into the same part of the metagame clock (assuming such categorizations have any meaning anymore).

Moving on:

Let's do this one first.

#3: As a best case scenario you're still talking about winning turn 5-6. What's the point of bastardizing the deck just too play a lousy win condition that will probably win as fast as Psychatog anyways? When a deck gets Yawgmoth's Bargain into play, barring an extremely unlucky draw (as in 19 land) or really low life total, it should win.  

Why, precisely, do you care if you are giving them a turn or two after you get Words+Bargain?  I still don't get this.  The fundamental turn for this deck is when you get Bargain out with enough life to use it.  After that turn your opponent isn't going to win the game.  Period.  I don't care at that point if it takes me until turn 30 to kill them.  The only reason I would care is if they might actually come back and win the game themselves, but that simply won't happen with Words+Bargain in play and active (at least until you run out of cards in your library).

#1: I still don't see how you're going to get 12-13 mana (Wish for Pack plus a couple Storms/Therapies for the storm count). Assuming you get Bargain 4th turn, 5th turn you will have 5 lands. You need 7-8 worth of SoLoMoxen and that is just a stretch for me to see you getting that many.

SoLoMoxen + Crypt produce 11 mana on their own.  Statistically, it seems likely that if you draw 60 cards you should see approximately 8 of your 8 artifact mana sources.  That is also quite a few Storm as well, most likely.  You can always Cunning Wish at their EOT if mana is really short.

#2: How the heck is Yawgmoth's Will winning? It lets you recast. . . .Lotus! 3 mana for 3 mana. How useful. You really need to consider the fact that just because a card is considered broken does not make it broken in all cases. Ditto for Time Walk, but I'll leave it alone because of the obscure chance that you can go Hunting Pack, Time Walk to win.

Well, a witty respondant might have noted that if some of my Moxen were in the graveyard I couldn't draw them to cast Hunting Pack.  This was a nod in the direction of one possible solution to that problem.

If you don't understand why Time Walk goes in this deck then I truly can't help you.  There is absolutely no phase of the game in which Walk doesn't improve your development.

#3: As a best case scenario you're still talking about winning turn 5-6. What's the point of bastardizing the deck just too play a lousy win condition that will probably win as fast as Psychatog anyways? When a deck gets Yawgmoth's Bargain into play, barring an extremely unlucky draw (as in 19 land) or really low life total, it should win.

How do you suggest "just winning"?  The standard Rector deck dedicates 2-5 slots to cards that are dead, or almost dead, before the Bargain hits to making sure they can "just win."  I dedicate one.

#4: You yourself said that this deck is terrible, and I'm telling you why. You're a Full TMD Member. I expect you to know the difference between combo and control, and I expect you to put serious thought into new deck ideas, rather than posting off the top of your head.

Wow, you expect me to know the difference between combo and control?  What exactly is that bright line?  Hulk is control but this isn't?  How about FCG?  Is that aggro or combo?  Have you played this deck?  It plays MUCH more like Hulk than Rector up until you get Bargain into play, and after you get Bargain into play it doesn't matter how it plays because you've won.

The reason I am disagreeing with you is not because I think this is a particularly good deck, I am disagreeing with you because you are identifying the wrong reasons this is a bad deck.  This isn't a bad deck because after you have Bargain in play and effectively unlimited cards you have to get to 7 mana to kill them, that is like saying Psychatog is a bad card because you have to discard your hand to win with it.  The game is already over at that point, so it doesn't make much difference what you have to do.  The reason this deck is bad is because Hulk doesn't have to run Words and Bargain to achieve the same thing.

One final thing: I posted this deck from memory not "off the top of my head."

Leo

[AngryPheldagrif]

As opposed to more point-counterpoint, I ask this. Goldfish a game, be it on Apprentice or in real life. Type every move and post it. As I've said before, I'm not interested in argument. I want cold, hard results.

The end.

[wonkey_donkey]

#4: You yourself said that this deck is terrible, and I'm telling you why. You're a Full TMD Member. I expect you to know the difference between combo and control, and I expect you to put serious thought into new deck ideas, rather than posting off the top of your head. I don't want you to list the SoLoMoxen and tell me that you win, I want to know how you win, when you win, and why you win. I don't care if this is the Newbie forum or Zherbus's private gold plated uber-forum. Put thought into your posts. Proofread. Not only do you still have the [card]Beast Attack[/card] instead of [card]Hunting Pack[/card], but your list also has [card]Words of Wisdom[/card] instead of [card]Words of Worship[/card].

-Dan

I am full of admiration for the way Leo has handled your criticisms. He has not been remotely aggressive in response to your often unfounded attacks, and has shown by the way he posts that he has not only deserved his full memeber status but also that some thought has gone into this deck. The fact that errors slip in is largely irrelevant as, to the best of my knowledge, he is only human.

Now to the deck: I think that generally speaking the idea is good. However, the big question for me is whether you have taken the massive strength of the Hulk skeleton and merely tried to use up the slightly varied slots on a more ostentatious kill. Your added susceptibility (sp?) to graveyard hate, although becoming less significant with the metagame shift away from dragon, is still an issue, and is naturally a possible cause for concern. I would also feel slightly iffy about the hulk match (and, to a lesser extent, the potentially worsened 4cc matchup), with hulk still having the power to outdraw you both pre- and post-sideboard (assuming no bargain). On the other hand the added goldfish speed gives you an edge in other matchups. In answer to why play this over hulk, I would say that I would only play it if there were specific metagame considerations making hulk unsuitable.

On the card choices; I'm wondering why play both brain freeze and hunting pack? The two together seem somewhat odd. Maybe replace one with a misdirection? Your mana base somehow seems dodgy, too, but off the top of my head I can't think of any suitable changes. Also, is green a better option than red? You gain REB and RnR at the expense of oxidize and naturalize. Hunting pack is still going to be castable, so that wouldn't be a problem. These are, however, untested and not necessarily right.

Tom

[Dr. Sylvan]

I urge caution in further posts here. If the discussion doesn't take a sharp turn away from flaming soon, I'm gonna have to lock it, and I might anyway depending on what the other mods say when they wake up. I'm not shy about recommending warnings, either.

Thanks for handling things as well as you have, Leo.

I don't care If the deck is good or bad. It is currently located in the Newbie forum, and there is no deck quality criteria in this forum. Leo's original post is well organized and well written, explaining some strengths and weaknesses of the deck. That's all we require for a thread started here, check the "Announcement: Rules of the forum. READ ME!" thread sticked for further infos.

AngryPheldagrif, your last few posts are really borderline and you are close to getting a warning. Consider this as an oral warning. You are not moderator here. If a Full Member does not deserve his title anymore, the Mods staff will handle the case. I see no reason on why I would downgrade Leo to Basic User. He's always been civil and made good, constructed post, something you have not always done here.

I don't want to waste anymore time on this thread, so get back on topic and keep a good discussion level. Even if you are convinced that the deck sucks or is poorly designed. If you can post something constructive, simply don't.

Toad

[PucktheCat]

Thanks for the support guys.

Before I respond to anyone directly, let me explain some things that should probably have gone in the original post.  This deck was originally conceptualized as a thought experiment to examine certain concepts.  It was posted, as I said when I started this thread, more to provoke thought about Rector decks in general (as it did with cssamerican's post) than because I expected anyone to go out and pull their Tog's for Rectors.

The questions I hope to expose to examination are these:

--How does Psychatog, the notorious one card combo, compare to a very strong two card combo in which both of the cards have some use on their own (Rector = Moat, Therapy = Duress)?
--What is the absolute minumum number of cards needed to make Bargain say "I win"?

These questions are related of course.  Rector + Therapy is only a two card kill if Bargain is an autowin and doesn't weigh down your deck with bad win conditions.

I feel like the main disadvantage to this deck that I didn't raise in my original post is its vulnerability, when compared to Hulk, to early damage.

Now to the deck: I think that generally speaking the idea is good. However, the big question for me is whether you have taken the massive strength of the Hulk skeleton and merely tried to use up the slightly varied slots on a more ostentatious kill.

May have.  As I said above, I conceptualized this deck with the idea that Bargain was the kill, so it wasn't a decision I made for that purpose (Berserking a Psychatog for the win is more interesting than Saccing a Rector and shuffling for the next game).  Nonetheless you may be right.

I would also feel slightly iffy about the hulk match (and, to a lesser extent, the potentially worsened 4cc matchup), with hulk still having the power to outdraw you both pre- and post-sideboard (assuming no bargain). On the other hand the added goldfish speed gives you an edge in other matchups. In answer to why play this over hulk, I would say that I would only play it if there were specific metagame considerations making hulk unsuitable.

Well, I don't think the vulnerability to the one Coffin Purge that is in most sbs is worse than the vulnerability to the 3 REBs, but generally I think I agree with you.  However, Rector has some advantages worth considering.  He is unaffected by summoning sickness and, if you have the Therapy, immune to StP and other removal.

In general, I think those who posted earlier in this thread may be right that things like AK and Drain may not be the best choices for this deck.  The plan would be to add 59 cards were best at getting Bargain into play so that the 60th, Words, can win the game.  It is by no means clear to me that the 59 cards that currently make up the Rector archetype are those 59 cards, but these may not be either.

On the card choices; I'm wondering why play both brain freeze and hunting pack? The two together seem somewhat odd. Maybe replace one with a misdirection? Your mana base somehow seems dodgy, too, but off the top of my head I can't think of any suitable changes. Also, is green a better option than red? You gain REB and RnR at the expense of oxidize and naturalize. Hunting pack is still going to be castable, so that wouldn't be a problem. These are, however, untested and not necessarily right.

Honestly, Brain Freeze and Hunting Pack are probably redundant.  If the sideboard got tight the former would be cut.  Right now, I am just playing the maindeck for testing, so the board was just a list of cards that might be considered as Wish targets.  One reason you might want Freeze is to win games (especailly Control mirrors) that went on for a very long time.

The Tropical Island is there because I wanted it to cast Pack if my Lotus was AWOL.  I suppose the Cities do that though.  Perhaps in that case Red would be a better choice.  Again, this would mostly affect the sideboard, which I consider far from complete.

Leo