Why would you ever play that over Hulk?.dec

[AngryPheldagrif]

Dr. Sylvan: I'm not challenging Leo on his post quality or his member status, nor am I trying to overtly insult him. I'm expressing frustration over his ignoring and twisting my posts. I expect when legitimate concerns are brought up over card choices or a deck's ability to accumulate copious quantities of mana that they are addressed rather than quips and veiled sarcasm. I'm not going to do anything more. I already ended the argument with my last post.

Leo: All I'm asking for is the transcript of one goldfish game. Play as though your opponent has and does nothing. I just want to know how fast you expect to win, not just set up a Bargain lock. That will answer all my questions.

-Dan

[PucktheCat]

I don't have Apprentice set up, but here is a documented game for you.  I hope this does something for you, because I can't believe I actually took the time to put it together.  In spite of your expectation, I am under no obligation to do your work for you.

It starts with the Bargain hitting the board via Mask of the Mimic.

Starting board position (as of turn 3):
19 life (fetchland)
Five cards in hand
Permanents: Rector, Bargain
Mana (all tapped, haven't played a land): Tundra, Underground Sea, Sol Ring

Play sequence:
(Turn 3): Bargain one card at a time until I see a land that produces black and a Therapy.  8 cards down I find a Therapy and I play City of Brass (one life), Therapy, sac Rector -> Words of Wisdom.  I also drew Mox Pearl in those cards, which I play and tap for 4 life.  End turn, discarding some chaff.

15 life
7 cards in hand (including a Force and my second Wish)

(Turn 4): Untap, six mana available.  Draw cards until I find a land (2).  Play land.

Now, at this point you can do a number of things.
Option 1:  This is how I actually played it out.

Gain 27 life (with CoB damage).  End turn, discarding one card.

40 life
7 cards in hand

(Turn 5): Draw the 38 remaining cards in my library, play a land, cast 4 Moxen, Lotus, Crypt, Time Walk Cunning Wish, and Hunting Pack for 9 4/4s.  Gain 20 life and win on your Time Walk turn.

Option 2:  This might be the correct line.  Since you have 40 life available at this point you can simply draw your whole library now.  Then you should have no trouble casting Time Walk to gain a bunch more life and winning from there.  You could Yawg Will back the Walk next turn to make sure your opponent didn't actually get a turn again, although it shouldn't be an issue if they do.

The only situation where #2 isn't better is if the bottom two cards in your library are Demonic Tutor and Time Walk and your opponent has enough cards in hand to make you need to triple Force or lose.

Leo

[AngryPheldagrif]

Check the ruling here. You can't sac the Rector to Mask to fetch another one. You can also find the same thing here.

-Dan

[edit]: This explains most of the argument we were having about this. I just couldn't figure out how you were getting out both the Bargain and the Words. Sorry it doesn't work, let us know if the deck is still okay without this. Good luck with the deck.

[cssamerican]

AngryPheldagrif: You are right in that you will not be able to put the second Rector in play because there will be no creature to target; however, the sacrificing of the first Rector is a cost assosiated with playing the Mask. So, it is a way to get Bargain in play, its just not a way to get Bargain AND an additional Rector in play.

edit: You probably ment that I just was restating it for clarification.

[PucktheCat]

So true, my mistake.  Mask was a late addition to the cast.

However, the play sequence would be delayed by that but not changed dramatically.  Most of the time Therapy will be the way you get Bargain.  Once you get Bargain finding a Rector for Words isn't a big deal.  It is much easier, for example, than finding one of two Tendrils.

Leo

[cssamerican]

Once you get Bargain finding a Rector for Words isn't a big deal.  It is much easier, for example, than finding one of two Tendrils.

Not really, You will only have 3 Rectors and 1 Words of Worship left in your deck.  This puts you in a position in some games where you must wait a turn for white mana to use them. Most traditional decks have Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor, and 2 Tendrils of Agony. All of which can be casted off Dark Rituals without the need of White mana and you win right there. So I wouldn't always say that getting a second Rector in play is easier than just casting a bunch of spells and casting Tendrils, plus I think that is just a weaker strategy than just winning.

The other thing is don't be to confident with high life totals in many games they mean nothing. For example, you get slaved you lose with Bargain in play, Dragon can still mill and ancestral you for the win. Hell, even Ninja Mask and drop a Phage in the grave and win. Giving your opponent extra turns is bad no matter what, remember this is Type 1 and broken stuff just happens sometimes, and there is no reason to give people that opportunity. Don't buy into the "I will win no matter what if Bargain is in play", the game ain't over till it's over!

[PucktheCat]

A high life total means little.  Having 4 Force of Will in your deck and 20 cards to draw as an instant means more.

Demonic Tutor is just as relevant here as in Tendrils builds.

Leo

Edit: Dan: Why, if your concern was getting Words into play, did you constantly ask about getting 10 mana for Hunting Pack?

[cssamerican]

Dragon could already have a Xantid in play...
Slavery could already have a Welder in play...
Ninja Mask could already have a Shapeshifter in play...

And yes I am aware that you could wish for an answer to remove these cards (Of course if the Welder is active, and they can slave you, you're toast if you can't win now).

But what I am saying, is why worry about casting cards that don't win the game right now. As a person who has played the traditional style of this deck countless times, I can say with confidence anything that doesn't win the game immediately is a waste. I have tried Dream Halls as a second enchantment and it was useless without Bargain, I have tried Words of Worship and it is worthless without Bargain...And with Bargain out and reasonable life totals you win regardless. Future Sight on the other hand, is insane with Bargain, and good without it. Future Sight in combination with Draw 7s and cheap mana can allow you to have a chance to win games in which you life total was to low to effectively use Bargain, and that is the only reason why I run it.

I guess this post is asking the question...Why mess around with vulnerable win conditions and convoluted combos when you can just use the best kill in the history of Magic, Tendrils of Agony?

Maybe I can better understand what you are trying to accomplish if you could tell me what you perceive as the weakness of the more traditional builds, like the one I posted earlier in this thread. Perhaps then we could narrow this discusion down to improving the Rector deck strategy, and possibly understand why you feel that adapting the Hulk engine has merit.

[AngryPheldagrif]

Dan: Why, if your concern was getting Words into play, did you constantly ask about getting 10 mana for Hunting Pack?

Because without the Words to draw your entire deck your chances of running into enough SoLoMoxen for Storm and the 10 mana fall drastically.

*Sidenote, replace the Mask with [card]Dredge[/card] for your board. It's another instant that sacs, and as a cantrip. I'm sure there's something better, but I can't think of it now.

@cssamerican: I know he can still sac to the Mask, I just meant that he can't use it to fetch the other Rector which was what he was using to get the Words.

It still works, but this sets it back yet another turn (to get a Rector for Words). It just keeps going back, and you end up with a turn 6-7 kill with an optimal first turn hand. This just doesn't seem worth it to me.

At very least drop Necropotence, Balance, and a couple more of the less utilized cards for a set of Rituals. Rituals are gold. They power out turn 2 Rectors, let you go off with Bargain (the same turn), help you get the 10 mana for Wish for Pack, and let you use Yawgmoth's Will to a highly inclusive role.

Good luck,
-Dan

PS: Thanx for the goldfish (rulings errors nonwithstanding) but if you'd like to try it out against regular Hulk, regular Rector, or any other type 1 deck on Apprentice, I'd be happy too see how the deck works works in a real match.

[combo_dude]

As a sacrifice effect, surely Plunge Into Darkness is suitable as a card? It nets you three extra life, or a tutoring effect. Hell, maybe even Skulltap to draw two cards? Mind Swords or Tendrils of Despair to annoy them?

Just casting ideas around - too young to remember Rector pre-Therapy, unfortunately, so no idea what was used then.

Also, Rituals do seem vital in any Rector deck - the 3W CMC seems tailor-made for being powered out with turn 2 Rituals.

[AngryPheldagrif]

As a sacrifice effect, surely Plunge Into Darkness is suitable as a card? It nets you three extra life, or a tutoring effect. Hell, maybe even Skulltap to draw two cards? Mind Swords or Tendrils of Despair to annoy them?

Just casting ideas around - too young to remember Rector pre-Therapy, unfortunately, so no idea what was used then.

Also, Rituals do seem vital in any Rector deck - the 3W CMC seems tailor-made for being powered out with turn 2 Rituals.

Extra sacrafice effects are not needed. Therapy is quite efficient. The Mask thing was just to give an extra sac effect as a Wish target. I have no clue what you mean by [card]Mind Swords[/card] (which is a 100% god-awful card, so I don't know if you mean something else) or Tendrils to annoy. Tendrils functions as the kill in mainstream Rector decks, hence the name 'Rector-Tendrils'.

[edit]: Just remembered the alternative cost to Mind Swords. Still doesn't change the fact that it is god awful and can't be wished for. Maindeck sac effects are fine.

[combo_dude]

As a sacrifice effect, surely Plunge Into Darkness is suitable as a card? It nets you three extra life, or a tutoring effect. Hell, maybe even Skulltap to draw two cards? Mind Swords or Tendrils of Despair to annoy them?

Just casting ideas around - too young to remember Rector pre-Therapy, unfortunately, so no idea what was used then.

Also, Rituals do seem vital in any Rector deck - the 3W CMC seems tailor-made for being powered out with turn 2 Rituals.

Extra sacrafice effects are not needed. Therapy is quite efficient. The Mask thing was just to give an extra sac effect as a Wish target. I have no clue what you mean by [card]Mind Swords[/card] (which is a 100% god-awful card, so I don't know if you mean something else) or Tendrils to annoy. Tendrils functions as the kill in mainstream Rector decks, hence the name 'Rector-Tendrils'.

[edit]: Just remembered the alternative cost to Mind Swords. Still doesn't change the fact that it is god awful and can't be wished for. Maindeck sac effects are fine.

I know Mind Swords is god-awful. I just looked through the legal sacrifice effects.  Also, I've highlighted some of my post that may have passed you by.  Tendrils of Despair being different to Tendrils of Agony, for example. I agree that you probably don't need them; depends on how utterly desperate you are to get the second enchantment out.

[AngryPheldagrif]

I know Mind Swords is god-awful. I just looked through the legal sacrifice effects.  Also, I've highlighted some of my post that may have passed you by.  Tendrils of Despair being different to Tendrils of Agony, for example. I agree that you probably don't need them; depends on how utterly desperate you are to get the second enchantment out.

My bad, not used to hearing about other Tendrils in T1. As for them in general, the deck does not need more sacrifice effects. As Leo himself has said, he's trying to minimize dead cards in this build. Cards that require you to sacrafice a creature are dead. Therapy is run because you can hit it whenever for FoW or whatever floats your boat, then let it sit in the graveyard until a Rector comes around.

I did understand your post (card error nonwithstanding ). I'm just non-flamingly explaining why Rector doesn't need more sac effects, since the last thing you want in a deck as tight as this one is dead cards.

-Dan

PS: Pre-Therapy Rector didn't exist.
[edit]: I meant in a modern sense  

[Kowal]

PS: Pre-Therapy Rector didn't exist.

Blatantly false.  Run a search in the archives for wicketsnatcher's L[ich] D[onate].  He won a Mox Jet in Hadley with it long before Therapy existed.

[PucktheCat]

It still works, but this sets it back yet another turn (to get a Rector for Words). It just keeps going back, and you end up with a turn 6-7 kill with an optimal first turn hand. This just doesn't seem worth it to me.

Actually, if I had used a Therapy in my example, it would set me back exactly 0 mana.  I used Wish because it is the slower process, costing me a net 4 mana.  I could easily have used that same four to cast a Rector.  The goldfish would play out exactly the same except I would have to find a Rector + Therapy.  If I Wish as above then also cast a Rector it costs an extra three so I will have 12 less life for the above scenarios.  That makes option 2 no longer viable, but option 1 is still quite possible.

Anyway, even when I was messing around with traditional Rector variants I didn't have any trouble using Words as a kill card.  It is simply more likely to come up off Bargain than Tendrils.  Tendrils is availiable through two tutors and two regular copies.  Words is availble through tutors, four Rectors and one copy.

cssamerican: Future Sight might serve a similar function if it let me run only one Tendrils.  Tendrils may be the best kill in Magic (debatable) but it is one of the worst cards in magic at getting a Rector into play and active.  Whatever set of cards makes Bargain a virtual "I win" with the least slots is what I am interested in.

Leo

[AngryPheldagrif]

It still works, but this sets it back yet another turn (to get a Rector for Words). It just keeps going back, and you end up with a turn 6-7 kill with an optimal first turn hand. This just doesn't seem worth it to me.

What I meant by this is that now you need an extra turn to play and sac the second Rector.

Actually, if I had used a Therapy in my example, it would set me back exactly 0 mana. I used Wish because it is the slower process, costing me a net 4 mana. I could easily have used that same four to cast a Rector. The goldfish would play out exactly the same except I would have to find a Rector + Therapy. If I Wish as above then also cast a Rector it costs an extra three so I will have 12 less life for the above scenarios. That makes option 2 no longer viable, but option 1 is still quite possible.

Now I'm confused, was that an example or did you really play it out?

-Dan

[PucktheCat]

I played it out, but can't play out another one right now at work, so I can't provide another sample game.  I can, however, see exactly how the lack of off Mask of Mimic would affect the game above.  That was what I was discussing.

Leo

[AngryPheldagrif]

I goldfished your build and the best I could manage was a 4th turn kill, and that was with a god hand of Lotus, Mox, Land, Rector, Therapy. The others were 7th, 8th, and 10th (though the last one was a hand I probably should have mulled). Not very promising. And the draw was weak for so much of it, I either needed the mana for the Rector or didn't need the graveyard stuff. Out of all four games, I only played 6 draw spells other than Bargain. I always wished I just had some more tutors or something.

-Dan

[PucktheCat]

That seems off to me.  I ran ten goldfishes this evening and here were my results (to actual kill):

(Turn)(Frequency)
1-0
2-1
3-1
4-1
5-6
6-1

That is an average turn of 45/10 = turn 4.5.

This test involved no mulliganing (even of very questionable hands) and no assumed opponent actions (Drain mana, etc.).  I played the deck as aggressively as I could.  Actual game data would be different I suspect (mostly slower, because of playing for some control).

I didn't track the turn I got Bargain into play seperately, but it is a bit different, obviously.  I imagine at least half the time I passed the turn (not including Time Walk turns) after I got Bargain so the average goldfish to Bargain is around 4.  I understand that isn't your primary concern, but it is actually very relevant because it becomes very tough for most decks to win at that point, as has been discussed.

I agree that the draw spells don't help the goldfish much (although they rescued the deck from at least one bad hand when I was able to Intuition, AK, AK into a 5th turn kill).  As I have said before I was building this deck on theoreticals and have no intention of optimizing it for real tournament play.  If I chose to improve it I might consider Impulse or some other psuedo-tutor for that slot, or I might go to a more traditional build.

Leo

[AngryPheldagrif]

How is a turn 2-3 even possible? I got 4th turn at best, and that WAS with a virtual god hand. I'm not accusing you of lying or anything, but I don't think a turn 2 kill is physically possible with the deck short of drawing the perfect 19 cards with Bargain, and even then. . .

[edit]: Ran some of the math; I couldn't find any way to win on turn 2 without drawing 5 specific cards in your opening hand and then Bargaining into between 9 and 11 specific cards out of the 19. The chances of this run somewhere around 1 in several thousand.

[PucktheCat]

Here was the play sequence, as far as I recall.

t1: Land, 3 mox, Rector
t2: Therapy, Bargain up Words, Crypt, draw a bunch and Time Walk (must have gotten another fast mana here, I have that I gained 12 life before ending the turn, but I only remember the Crypt)
t2.1: draw a bunch more (whole library?), Yawgmoth's Will, Time Walk, Cunning Wish > Hunting Pack
t2.2: win

A lot of luck?  Yes.  I got both Words and Walk off the Bargain along with good permanent fast mana, which let me untap with 8+ (and a land to lay) mana open and only 20 or so cards left in my library.  Not impossible, but improbable.

Were you counting Walks as turns?  Most of the time I cast Walk twice after I get Bargain, so that would make our results about the same.

Leo

[sa17dk]

That looks like there are too many singles for that turn 2 win

[PucktheCat]

That looks like there are too many singles for that turn 2 win

My post wasn't a prescription for future play.  It was describing a specific game I reported in my results.

[AngryPheldagrif]

Nah, hands like that are very reasonable with the 'right deck'. Unfortunately, the 'right deck' gets DQ'ed for playing 20 moxen

[edit]: God hands happen.