Worse Than Fish: the Reprise (aka WTF/r)

[dunedan]

Can´t you play one or two Crucible of Worlds in the SB? Maybe it will stop the mana screw in the mirror, stabilize the mana base and making your strip/wastes more efficient. Right now, it looks a little bit fragile. You can side it against the mirror and maybe 4cC.


I´ve been brainstorming a bit about the sideboard and maybe this one can be played in a mixed/unknown meta:

3x Red Elemental Blast
2x Blue Elemental Blast
1x Null Rod
1x Crucible of Worlds
3x Fire/Ice
2x Artifact Mutation (2 Oxidize in MD)
2x Maze of Ith
1x Stifle (2 in MD)

Any thoughts about the sideboard?

[BreathWeapon]

I think Crucibles may be strong enough to play in the MD (I have space, because I play budget WTF/r). Having a Fetch/Wasteland every turn is tech, and being able to freely trade Mishras vs Aggro is strong. The card has synergy with roughly 9-12 cards in your deck and another 5 in the opponent's deck. If the opponent is playing Aggro, the number is even higher. I have SBed these things in so much, MDing them just seems warranted.

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

Stifle is really awsome, but I think that it is a tad too conditional to maindeck three.

Anyways, the fact that you have call of the heard, grim lavamancer, AND river boa makes it much easier for you.  Fire/ice is also a house here, even more so that stifle, I would say.

Also, in regards to the cruicible fight, oxidise gives us an advantage there as well.

[TheRock]

I go away for a month and a half and I've missed way too much already.  

Right now, I've been switching my maindeck slots between Suq'Ata Firewalker/Razorfin Hunter and Call of the Herd depending on how many Welders will show up in the metagame.  CotH doesn't seem to be very effective against an artifact-based deck, which is a good chunk of the problem for Fish.

The thing about Sigil of Sleep is that if there isn't a safe target like Suq'Ata on the table, you wind up with a lot of dead cards more often than not since Grim is easy to burn away.  There is always SoFaI to consider as well since a 5/5 Elephant can block anything Madness can throw at you.

I really like how this deck is coming together and I look forward to playing it a lot more.

[dunedan]

The BEBs are there because FCG, random Blood Moons, and against R/G (when fire dosen´t kill Kird Apes) and not the mirror, if you´re playing against fish, it´s already very much you want to main.

What is better, two CoWs in the sideboard or one in the maindeck? I think two in main is too much. I was playing one simply because I have alot of cards against fish already.

Does Hidden Gibbons fit to gain some tempo? Not in main but maybe in the sideboard.

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

2 md cruicble is definately too much.  I'm not maindecking one yet, because despite it's power it is useles in some matchups. (mainly combo)

I have been sbing gibbons in WTF for a while now, but I think that with red added gibbons sbed would fight for the same spot as REB.

[austinnadz]

looking at your list, a lot of fatness comes from nasty artifact creatures, you could run one or two maindeck artifact mutations, that would be pretty sick, throw 8 1/1's in their face after destroying a sundering titan. it could definetly be something to toy with.

I like the deck, it looks like it's coming along nicely. it does show some very good promise. and stifle even if it's one belong's maindeck.

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

Personally I think artifact mutation belongs in the sideboard, but maindeck oxidise doesn't seem too bad.  It gets rid of chalice for 2 as well as all of the artifact fat, and is more easily castable at 1cc and only a single colour.

[lilmidget]

Which has been working better for you guys, maindeck oxidize or maindeck fire/ice? In my deck, I have 2 main spots open for one and 3 in the side for the other.

Of course it highly depends on the meta, but mine consists or literally everything from sligh and sui to 7/10 and 4cControl.

At the current time I have the oxidizes maindeck as a chalice for two will totally wreck me, but I feel that 4 lavamancers aren't enough to ensure that I kill welders as quickly as possible.

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

I think that chalice for 1 is more damaging as it kills off sitfle, brainstorm, grim, monkey, and curiosity, while 2 only gets spiketail, boa, and daze (possibly fire/ice).  The key is that most people who see you are playing a fish-like deck will chalice for 2 instead of 1.  So, oxidise killing chalice for 2 is really more of a bonus.  It's the 1 colour and 1cc part that matter most.

Ya the problem for relying on grim for welder killing is that it takes a turn fo rhim to become active, giving them a chance to waste your red source and possible shut him off.  But, fire ice is still probably better sbed as it is useles against control or combo.

[Pest]

Here's a question, why are you running Brainstorm over Standstill? There was a discussion in the T1 Forum about whether to play Brainstorm or Standstill. I understand this is not Gay/r, but still, with the manlands and what-not, Standstill should be the optimal choice. Otherwise the manlands are just sub-optimal. I'm not saying Brainstorm is terrible in this deck, but are me and PTW the only people who think that Standstill is what makes this deck work...?

[FreeZRManX]

@Pest:

Before I even begin, let me say that I am in *total* agreement that Standstill is the backbone of U/r Fish, and makes the deck as strong as it is.

However, this is a completely different deck. First off, let's look at the mana curves on each deck respectively, specifically on the curve at or above the 2cc slot. Note that I'm only counting cards that have to be played by paying mana; Cloud of Faeries and Daze aren't counted. Also, I'm not counting Standstill.

U/r Fish:
4x Spiketail Hatchling
2x Voidmage Prodigy
3x Null Rod
-9-

U/G/r Fish:
4x Spiketail Hatchling
4x River Boa
3x Null Rod
2x Call of the Herd
-13-

Having this many cards in the deck that are antisynergistic with Standstill precludes its use, in my opinion.

Also, as Jacob Orlove has pointed out before, because the individual card quality in WTF/r is so much higher than in Gay/r, this deck values card quality over card quantity. Drawing multiple threats is fine in U/r because those threats can be quickly played. In U/G/r, to draw multiple threats isn't nearly as useful, as they won't be immediately useful except as extra cards in hand, because they aren't as immediately castable without tapping necessary mana sources (for such things as Stifle, regenerating Boas, etc).

In my experience, this deck, while still a tempo deck, lacks the ability to abuse the tempo gained off Standstill that Gay/r has, and for that, plus the deck's overall antisynergy with Standstill, I can't justify running it.

@Jacob: I played this deck at my local Type One tourney (Dreamers, for those who are familiar). My matchups were (in order) 4cc, Trinistax, 4cc, FCG, Trinistax. I came in without tremendously high expectations; having played Gay/r for about eight months, it felt awful to be playing Fish without Standstill.

That said, your deck played FANTASTICALLY. In four rounds of Swiss and Top 4, I didn't lose a SINGLE GAME. It runs like an absolute dream, and the sideboard rocks against bad matchups. Fantastic work.

[FreeZRManX]

My decklist is as follows:

Colored Manas:
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire

Colorless Manas:
1 Library of Alexandria
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland

Threats:
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Spiketail Hatchling
4 River Boa
2 Call of the Herd
1 Gorilla Shaman

Draw:
4 Curiosity
4 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
0 Time Walk

Disruption:
4 Force of Will
2 Daze
2 Stifle
3 Null Rod

Sideboard:
3 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Firestorm
1 Fire/Ice
3 Red Elemental Blast
0 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Oxidize
1 Rack and Ruin
2 Energy Flux

Card Choices:
4 Fetches, 8 Duals:
My metagame is utterly INFESTED with Wastelands and Stifles. The metagame at the tourney was something along the lines of the following:

3 U/r Fish
1 U/G/r Fish (me)
2 4cc
2 Trinistax
1 Food Chain Goblins
2 Other

9 of 11 players packing 5 Strips. 5 players playing at *least* 2 Stifles maindeck. With that much fetchland and nonbasic land hate running around, I didn't feel comfortable only running 3 of each dual.

Call of the Herd:
This card won me at *least* two games against 4cc, and one in testing versus Food Chain. I hear blocking and killing two Piledrivers, or forcing your opponent to counter a threat twice is some good. I can't see cutting this for anything at this point.

Brainstorm over Standstill:
Not a ton to say here; Gay/r abuses Standstill far more intensively, and playing four almost totally dead cards maindeck in the most common matchup in my meta doesn't exactly give me a warm, fuzzy feeling inside.

No Time Walk:
I simply have no access to a Walk. I'd cut either a Stifle or a Daze for it if I did (probably a Daze).

Board Choices:
No Blue Elemental Blast:
In retrospect, I should have run these to board versus Flametongue Kavu in the 4cc matchup, and for lighting up Welders. Also would have been good in the Food Chain matchup. I feel a bit stupid now. But they're getting run next week, probably cutting the random Fire/Ice and Oxidize #3.

Energy Flux over more Rack and Ruin:
Versus most artifact decks, Flux seems like the better choice in U/G/r because of one card: River Boa. If they elect to keep only one gigantic beater (ie Sundering Titan), you can just block it forever and beat down with a Spiketail Hatchling or shoot them with Lavamancer. I won game 2 of round 2 in just such a fashion.

In short, nothing too techy. Just all-around solid card quality (and some random ridiculous topdecks) carried me on the night.

I find there's one problem with the deck, though: the mana base. I separated the categories to illustrate that this *three color* deck runs *15* colored mana sources, 3 of which are shut off by Null Rod. I think the mana base could really use a good working over to see if there's any way to make it less susceptible to Wastelands, especially with the current rise of U/r Fish.

[Magi]

I find there's one problem with the deck, though: the mana base. I separated the categories to illustrate that this *three color* deck runs *15* colored mana sources, 3 of which are shut off by Null Rod. I think the mana base could really use a good working over to see if there's any way to make it less susceptible to Wastelands, especially with the current rise of U/r Fish.

Nice decklist...very close to the one I used to win our last T1 tourney over here (apart from the sideboard).

I cut the Ruby and Emerald for an Island and the Timewalk. Acceleration is less important in your deck. The Island pretty much insures a source of mana against that horrible double Wasteland draw. The Timewalk is just a good overall utility card.

Another card I'm going to float for discussion in WTF/r is Viashino Heretic. His mana cost is easily attainable for this deck, and he looks like an absolute house against all the fat artifact decks out there, and against things like 3Sphere and Crucible. In an artifact infested meta, I think he could replace Call of the Herd. Otherwise, I think he could potentially have a home in the sideboard.

[nargoT]

For the last critter spot I came across granger guildmage.  He was a staple card in this sort of thing for a while.  He would be abusive vs fish, could take out welders, and can still had with curiosity through blockers.  The main problem is he doesn't swing for more than 1, and he needs both off colors.  Fish really can't deal with him at all though, but it sounds like fish isn't much of a worry anyway.

[austinnadz]

has anyone given a good look-at to Suq'Ata Firewalker? sure, it's a 3cc, but it'd a 1UU. in that sense, it's pretty good because all of your color producing lands can produce the blue mana. it's good on curiosity, and it's also pitchable to force if worst comes to worst.

also, another possible thing which I think was over looked was the hidden guerillas. a 5/3 trampler if an artifact is cast for one mana? wtf mate ( :lol:  ironic I should use such a word as wtf in this post isn't it?)? that's almost as good as a null rod, what control deck wants a 5/3 trampler pummeling their face on turn two? it screams force me, yes? I understand that it would only be a two of, which kind of hurts, and the mirror against u/r fish (which I guess really wouldn't be a mirror at all would it?) wouldn't be as good, but that's where we have the sb.

but as to the sb choice, I think that the sb is strictly meta dependent. say I walk into this mall tournament where I live and play scrub.dec we've completely missed the meta, right? so, maybe there shouldn't be so much focus on the sb, and not make it as dependent and tight. though I agree the sb is a very important aspect of a deck. but to the sideboard: maybe naturalize isn't such a bad thing to keep in there. with back to basics running around, and maybe even my suggestion of hidden guerillas, maybe the nonbasic hate and enchantments floating around just say side in naturalize please? something to look into, and I think I may start playing this deck, it just feels nasty.

[honkeyb5]

I played this version in a small (12 person) no proxy tourney this past weekend, and split the meager 1st/2nd place prize with some kid...but that's besides the point.

4 River Boa
4 Spike Tail Hatchling
3 Grim Lavamancer
1 Suq Ata Firewalker
1 Gorilla Shaman

3 Null Rod
4 Mishra's Factories

4 Force of Will
4 Standstill
2 Daze
2 Stifle
4 Curiostiy
1 Fire/Ice (replacing proxied timewalk)
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Brainstorm (replacing proxied ancestral)

1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
1 Island (replacing proxied sapphire)
5 Islandy Fetchlands
1 Stripmine
4 Wasteland

SB:
3 REB
2 BEB
3 Sigil of Sleep
2 Artifact Mutation
2 Oxidize
2 Energy Flux
1 Suq Ata Firewalker

There were only 4 rounds, and I didn't even play the last game, because we split, but I'd like to point out some strengths of a few minor inclusions.

1: Blue Elemental Blast.  This is was a saving grace for me, be it for blood moon, or a stupid horde of goblins.  They were OKAY against the goblin match, countering a Sulfuric vortex, or a Goblin Piledriver that would have beat my ass.  Round 3 I played against a stax variant, which ran Blood Moon in the SB.  Without these, I wouldn't have any game.  In fact, it was rather convenient that I had to unproxy a the Sapphire for an island.  Without it I would not have been able to cast this upon drawing it.

2: Crucible of Worlds.  This is a house.  Absolute house.  It kept me alive fighting goblins, due to recursion of factories.  It slowed them down enough for me to stablize and come back with boa hottness.  The re-occuring strip was also key to winning a game, being able to strip 4 mountains, at least.

3: Suq Ata Firewalker.  Killed welders a few times, and also put unkillable pressure on the goblin crew.  Makes sharpshooter look like a pussy(cat).
It was kind of ammusing playing this, because nobody else there had seen one before.

Anyway, I think these are worth considering.  I wanted to try out rancors, but I felt that since I had ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA what the meta was going to be like, it would be safer to run oxidize in the side.  Oxidize is useless against scrubby little kids, by the way.

Here's a breif report.

Round 1 - Goblins:

Game One
Everybody plays a bunch of spells.  He's got shocks, instead of lightning bolt....um....yeah.  But they killed lots of lavamancers and spiketails.
This was the average fish game.  The only thing that made it exciting was that he dropped a sulfuric vortex, and i had to race that.  I was able to kill him on his upkeep, while i was at 1 life.  Crucible was integral in this game, because I could chump all of his creatures with factories.

Game Two
Same as the first.  Average fish game.  Except he was playing mad skull clamps and drew mad cards.  I drew mad lands off standstills, instead of counters.  He beat me to a pulp, but i was able to stabalize.  Until he brought in Rhorix Bladewing.  Ouch.  My reply to dying to that was WTF.

Game Three
Same as other two.  Except he draws mad lands off skull clamp.  Ha.
Sigil of Sleep was awesome in these games, because he had to keep replaying his stupid warcheif over and over, until i eventually countered it.


Round 2: Magma Mine Combo with Lions Eye Diamond and the New White Card.

Game One
Counters + Null Rod = Win.

Game Two
Null Rod = Win.

Round 3:  Slaver/Stax Variant

This was the hardest matchup, i'd say, because up until this point I had never won against a workshop deck.  I wish I had taken notes, because these were some good games.

Game One
He gets a welder in play and a manacrypt.  I answered these with a null rod.  He eventually gets a Karn into play, because i was stupid and let him resolve the manacrypt. He discarded Karn at the end of his turn and welded it in.  Luckily, I was able to get Wall of Factories up and running, so i stopped his busted iron beast.  If I remember correctly, which i might not, he might have scooped this game shortly after null rod was on the table.

Game Two
This was nuts.  I force of will a 1st or 2nd turn blood moon, which makes him gasp.  Two turns later, he plays one out, which I have no answer to.
A turn later, he wheel of fortunes, to my fortune, and his misfortune.  I drew a BEB and that lone Island, which would not have been in my deck had this been a proxy tournament.  I BEB'd the moon.  Unfortunately for him, he drew 6 lands and a grim monolith off the wheel.  Ouch.
He was soon finished by 3 lavamancers, a couple of factories, and a curiously strong spiketail.

So that was it.  I got 25 bucks store credit.  Woo hoo.  I'd get my ass handed to me at a real tourney, probably.  I wend 3-3 with a madness deck at the first Myriad Games tourney.  Everybody else was playing fish and landstill.

Anyway, to sum things up.  This deck is swell.  Better than new socks and PB&J.

[FreeZRManX]

@honkeyb5

Four things:

One - Interesting list. Did you find you had enough proactive threats without Call of the Herd / a creature in its place? From the report, it seems like you used Crucible mostly from a defensive standpoint, and Crucible appears to be taking Call of the Herd's place in your list.

Two - How was Standstill over Brainstorm? It seems like the 2cc slot on your mana curve gets overly clogged while playing Standstill. Would Brainstorm have been better?

Three - Why the Firewalker over Grim Lavamancer #4?

Four - How was Artifact Mutation in the sideboard? It seems awesome on paper, but OTOH I could see problems keeping RG on the board against the decks Mutation is really good against.

[honkeyb5]

FreeZRManX:

1a) Hell yeah.  Damage is not a problem with this deck.  I raced GOBLINS for milf's sake.  It was slightly janky goblins (shocks instead of bolts), but goblins none-the-less.

1b) I haven't gotten to play with the crucible that much...it is just something i'm trying out for a while.  I don't own any COtH, so running them means I have to find them.  Either or, they're both card advantage machines with great synergy with the deck.  I'd say either one would be fine, depending on what you're playing against.  Against my first opponent, they were used pretty defensively, which is fine...they did a lot better than calls whould have in that situation, i think.

Had I drawn one against my second opponent, the games would have been much shorter than 5 minutes.  The only reason why they lasted that long is because the crazy bastard was running QUICKSAND!  Visions TECH.  So I had to wait for wastelands in order to attack with boas or factories.

2) I haven't tested both.  I did end up running one brainstorm, because  of the whole "no proxy, no own card" thing.  I cast it once.  And it worked just like brainstorm works.  I like standstill because the opponent always gets pissed when one hits the table.  Besides netting you cards 99% of the time, it has a cool psychological effect on the opponent...something that brainstorm lacks.

"End of Turn: Brainstorm"
"whatever"

"STANDSTILL!"
"You're an ass!"

Anyway, besides that, I can see what you're saying about the 2cc cloggyness.  It might have made the deck seem awkward here and there, now that I think back on it. "Do I cast this, or do i cast standstill -- when i have 3 lands."  Iunno.  I think it's okay.  Much like anything else, it depends on your current game state situation.

#3 Why the Firewalker?
Well, I sadly, have no Lavamancer #4.  You know what...i don't miss having one either.  The firewalker seems to fit just fine.  It pitches to force, or misdirection (should you choose to run it).  It smoothes out the 2cc blob thing a little bit.  The pseudo-protection from red ability is nice, too.  It can't  be fire/iced, or bolted, or sharpshootered, or lavamancered.  The casting cost may appear to be blah, but upon playing with it, i think it's just swell.

[Jacob Orlove]

I cleaned up a lot of the low-content/bad suggestion posts. 25 "land" is a lot against decks with no mana disruption (eg tog), but is working out great against pretty much everything else. The deck gives me lands off the top like crazy.

[dunedan]

I tested with two CoW in maindeck, but i felt it was just too much so I reduced it to one. One works out very well and it is a real bomb against many decks. I removed two Daze to a CoW and a Time Walk but only four counters feels a bit random, is there a way to put in some more? I feel the deck has lost too much control.

[honkeyb5]

dunedan:
Post your decklist, and let's see what you have.

I feel that 2 Daze is the right number for this variant of fish.  3 or 4 is too much, because it's not a card you want to draw into in the mid/late game, unless your opponent is dumb enough to tap out on you...but that rarely happens if that person has played against a lot of fish.

I really think CoW seems to be the ultimate "pre-hyped-sleeper-bomb," in that, when it was first created, people thought it was going to be the best thing ever. Then they tried to build decks around it that were flawed and failed miserably.  Then it resurfaced in a sideboard here and there, and now I think that it (as in just 1) has a solid place in at LEAST this deck.

Then again, I still haven't tried the Dumbo token thing yet...

[nataz]

I feel that 2 Daze is the right number for this variant of fish.  3 or 4 is too much...I really think CoW seems to be the ultimate "pre-hyped-sleeper-bomb,"...Then it resurfaced in a sideboard here and there, and now I think that it (as in just 1) has a solid place in at LEAST this deck.

I say this talking from a GayRed perspective, where in fish heavy meta-games (like 5-10 proxy) I have been tinkering with a GayRed Build that maindecks a CoW and a full compliment of Daze.

But, it seems that if you are going to add CoW to your deck list, you may be able to lean on Daze a little harder. CoW attacks an opponent’s mana (obv,) and it therefore it stands to reason that daze can be that much better.

Maybe if people are feeling disruption light, adding one or two more Daze in combination with CoW is the way to go.

[austinnadz]

jacob orlove wrote:

The deck gives me lands off the top like crazy.

I noticed that too. I was playing last night against gay/r fish and all I seemed to want to draw was just land after land. I couldn't get spells when I needed them, just land. I was running the 6 fetch and 6 land trial version here with the two call of the herd and it was just getting stomped on by the gay/r because I just savagely pulled lands.

oh, and is it possible to get an up to date view of a decklist here? I'm interested to see what everyone's testing out and running, assuming we're fully powered.

and I also like the idea of a maindeck artifact mutation over an oxidize, who expects a maindeck mutation?

[Fatty_Arbuckle]

I tested one CoW in the md, and it seemed to me that sometimes it would cause me to hold back with the lavamancer. Granted, it can be really good and versatile, I just didn't like having to hold back the 2 damage. I do however, like one in the sideboard vs crucible control type decks and the like.

[dunedan]

Allright, here´s my decklist:


MD:
1x Gorilla Shaman
4x Grim Lavamancer
4x Spiketail Hatchling
4x River Boa
2x Call of the Herd

4x Force of Will
3x Null Rod
4x Brainstorm
4x Curiosity
1x Ancestral Recall
2x Oxidize
1 Time Walk
1 Crucible of Worlds
2x Stifle

1x Strip Mine
4x Wasteland
4x Mishra’s Factory
3x Flooded Strand
3x Polluted Delta
3x Tropical Island
3x Volcanic Island
2x Island

SB:
3x Red Elemental Blast
2x Blue Elemental Blast
1x Null Rod
1x Crucible of Worlds
3x Fire/Ice
2x Artifact Mutation
2x Maze of Ith
1x Stifle
Alternatives to sideboard:
_x Oxidize
_x Firestorm
_x Sigil of Sleep
_x Gorilla Shaman


Right now there´s no Dazes in my deck and I really want them to be there. The only things I want to cut for them is my Stifles or Oxidizes but both fits very well in the deck. Maybe one of each?

I also want to put in a Sapphire in the deck but don´t know what to cut, an Island? Is 23 manaproducers to few?



If you wanted my decklist to be in my last post and think this one i unecessary, I can of course fix it.

[honkeyb5]

I say this talking from a GayRed perspective, where in fish heavy meta-games (like 5-10 proxy) I have been tinkering with a GayRed Build that maindecks a CoW and a full compliment of Daze.
 
But, it seems that if you are going to add CoW to your deck list, you may be able to lean on Daze a little harder. CoW attacks an opponent’s mana (obv,) and it therefore it stands to reason that daze can be that much better.  
 
Maybe if people are feeling disruption light, adding one or two more Daze in combination with CoW is the way to go.

I sees where you're coming from and I likes what I sees, and I can agree to some extent.  But, do you really need to lean on a 3rd or 4th daze if you already have 4 spiketails maindecked?  That's pretty much like playing 11-12 counterspells, which could be too much.  With 5 strip effects, a crucible to recur the strip effects, 3 Null rods, a stifle or two, an oxidize or two, 4 hard counters, and 6 soft counters, I'd say that's a pleantiful amount of disruption (a total of at least 20-23 cards).

If you were going to include more than 2 dazes, i'd say put one in the sideboard, so you can side it in against a deck where the null rods don't do anything.


dunedan:
Perhaps you can cut one maindeck stifle entirely, and move an oxidize to the board somewhere to fit in the dazes.  Stifle can be pretty conditional, and since this deck draws sooo many cards, if you really need to see more than one, you can board in your second.  You can probably cut the 4th null rod from the side to fit the oxidze in there.  Or, if you're scared to do that, cut a fire/ice.

As for the mox problem, keep your two islands...they're important.  I'd drop down to 5 fetches.  Especially if CoW is intended to stay in the maindeck.

I intend to make some more changes to my decklist, and try out a few new things (new for me, anyway) at a tourney this saturday.  If things work out, i'll give everybody the low-down.

[austinnadz]

I like your list dunedan. but in thinking that you run two stifles, two oxidize, and one crucible, I'd think you could cut one oxidize and one stifle, or a crucible and go with one of the two others? Or maybe an island, because I find that the amount of land I get with almost the same build just doesn't stop coming. I can see that the stifles are just a disgusting utility card, they can always be used whether it's stifling an early or late fetch, an animation of a factory, or a welder or something, they are a utility card that is most useful, so I'd lean more towards an oxidize (and I still insist that artifact mutation should be used over oxidize, though it ups the 2cc spot) and the crucible.

my feelings on crucible maindecked: playing gay/r fish I've been thinking that it does have a place in the sideboard, no question. but maindecked, it seems kind of mana hungry to me. three mana is a lot when you just need all of your land to attack and cast spells. I don't necessarily agree about the maindeck, but the sb most def. you're call though.

[Jacob Orlove]

jacob orlove wrote:

The deck gives me lands off the top like crazy.

I noticed that too. I was playing last night against gay/r fish and all I seemed to want to draw was just land after land. I couldn't get spells when I needed them, just land. I was running the 6 fetch and 6 land trial version here with the two call of the herd and it was just getting stomped on by the gay/r because I just savagely pulled lands.

I think there are enough decks in the meta that hate on our lands (titan, strips, trinisphere, stifle, etc), to justify the current mana base. However, against something that doesn't attack our mana base (eg Tog, Combo, Control Slaver), I think siding out a land after game one is the way to go.

[nataz]

Okay,
Again take what I say with a grain of salt. I've only been play testing this deck for a week or so, and most of my experience w/ tempo.dec was from behind Gay/Red.

however, here is what I have been thinking about wtf/r's disruption base.

1. Null rod and spiketail are in, no questions from me. I like the numbers where they are (even if sometimes I wish I had a fourth rod main decked), but over all I see no need to stray from the 3/4 config.

However (using  dundan's list) I see 7 slots up for possible change.

1 CoW, 2 stifle, 2 oxidize, 1 call of the herd (still leaves us w/ 14 creatures + one shadow creature from the flashback for curiosity), and (please please don't hit me) timewalk.

In those 7 slots I am looking at

2. stifle

I really like this card. A lot of people have been calling it situational, but I am finding it to be really strong against a deck that I have been having trouble w/, 4C control. I find that a good 4C control player (especially one with CoW in the SB) can really do some damage against our kinda sketchy mana base. Angels > our creatures in combat, and good luck racing a flipped exalted. Main deck stifle helps to make sure that 2x white mana never shows up. Stifling an early fetch can be huge in this match up, and combined with null rod/strip effects make this match up more favorable.

Stifle plays much the same role against GayRed, which really only runs 4 (!!!) real red mana sources. It is the 5 fetches that allow fish to get away with that, stifle the fetch and you cut fish off from red. That can buy you enough time to get your own active grim on the table which is obv. huge.

I think with the current meta the way it is (large numbers of GayRed and 4C control) main deck stifle is a really good idea. I have been testing 3, but I would be happy to find room for a fourth.

3. CoW

Okay, maybe I am paranoid, but again I think that GayRed and 4C Control are going to make up a decent portion of the meta, and this card is gold against both decks. Where as stifle is all about the early tempo war, this is the card that you are buying time for. It is my late game bomb.

Recurring waste/ strip, bringing back lost color sources, and bringing back manlands against fish and 4C Control is awesome. I also find it useful in the TiTan.dec match up, where I can have infinate blockers, and bring back my duals. The fact that Titan doesn’t have trample means that a factory can block all day long, whilst you are hopefully flying/island walking/pinging for the win. CoW helps to stave off that initial "oh look, I lost all my colored sources mind as well scoop" condition that seems to happen to me after a resolved titan.

To be fair it can be a huge drain target against this deck , but that is why I am leaning on my stifles (no UU for you), and the next card so heavily. Also, considering the way this deck curves, I think the right card to pull for this would be CoTH w/ its similar mana requirements.

I’m working with 1-2 copies main deck

4. daze

Okay, well basically what I said in my previous post. I like the synergy with CoW, and it can protect the CoW when coming down, while still allowing me to tap out to play lots of threats (stifles/beats w/ curiosity). Using a full compliment of stifle and CoW means that daze can be depended on much later in the game then in other builds.

right now I'm using 2-3 copies main deck.  

5. oxidize

This is the odd man out. Yes, I do understand that this is a great card. It can hit all kinds of nasty huge artifact bombs (and therefore dig you out of a deep TiTan. deck style hole), but I also understand that its a tempo card that can be used to kill moxen, opponents CoW, GayRed's factories, etc. ect. etc.

However for all its coolness, It is my odd man out. I do not want to drop more threats, and I like the other disruption slots better. So for now these are relegated to my SB

So to recap
+ 3-4 stifle
+1-2 CoW
+2-3 Daze
0 oxidize
0 timewalk
- 1 CoTH