Worse Than Fish: the Reprise (aka WTF/r)

[lilmidget]

So to recap
+ 3-4 stifle
+1-2 CoW
+2-3 Daze
0 oxidize
0 timewalk
- 1 CoTH

Good explanations for your card choices, but you failed to mention why you did not include Time Walk into your deck.

[nataz]

yea, after re-reading my post I was wondering when that would get asked.

the answer is because when I'm building this deck I run into a number game. For me, both GayRed and WTF/R are all about ratio's.


1.I need a high land count, not to mention I need to fill all my color requirements.

2. I need 14 creatures (If I drop one, I'm going to add a mana source) to make my beats reliable, and my draw engine work.

3. I need my 3 null rods, 4 curiosity, 5 strip effects, 4 force, 4 brainstorm, and 1 recall for the deck not to suck.

This leaves what I want:

and I want my 7th disruption slot more then I want my cantrip. There are some decks I would never think of playing without a walk. This is not one of them.

[Jacob Orlove]

If you go back to the original fish lists, some of them didn't run walk, to fit in other cards. It's actually not that great a card early on, since all it really nets you is an extra land drop. It's much better towards the mid-late game, and it's obviously ridiculous if you have library/curiosity out, but it's not actually a card the deck has to run.

Your changes certainly make sense for a heavy fish/4cC meta. I really like MD oxidize, but in a meta like that, I can see not having room for them. Likewise, 3 stifles seems like too much to me, but against 4cC and Fish they're very solid.

However, if Titan is killing all your lands, you may be playing out lands too quickly. I find that I can usually get by on 2 duals, so I tend to either leave additional lands in my hand, or as unpopped fetches. That way, Titans don't just come out of nowhere to wreck me. The higher land count also facilitates this. Also, if you can manage to get a trop out after titan lands, a boa can hold him off indefinitely--you don't need factory/crucible.

But, like I said before, your changes make sense for your meta. We're better off if we don't all play the same disruption mix anyway, since people may expect Oxidize from you, or more Stifles from me. If we don't play the same cards, they can't know what build they're facing in the crucial early turns.

[austinnadz]

so, to recap nataz post and to clear things up, I ask if this is what your deck currently looks like (roughly) for I am obviously a retard:

MD:
1x Gorilla Shaman
4x Grim Lavamancer
4x Spiketail Hatchling
4x River Boa
1x Call of the Herd

4x Force of Will
3x Null Rod
4x Brainstorm
4x Curiosity
1x Ancestral Recall
2x daze
2x Crucible of Worlds
3x Stifle

1x Strip Mine
4x Wasteland
4x Mishra’s Factory
3x Flooded Strand
3x Polluted Delta
3x Tropical Island
3x Volcanic Island
2x Island (one in question here)


something I'm thinking is the possibility of dropping a single island, and maybe adding in a second CoTH or a 4th stifle/daze. I might even go as far to say as to drop the second crucible as well. I think that either the disruption or the beats would be a good call for dropping the island and the 3cc artifact. if the single island is dropped, something to think about would be the last stifle, therfore it would up the count of potential one drops or first turn dazes. I'm hesitant to place another CoTH because it's a 3cc and you would have just dropped a mana source for a large beast.

something I noticed about the deck while fishing today: the disruption is crucial with the small beasts that we've got in the deck. I think sacraficing the one turn (time walk) and the maindeck oxidize for the control aspect is a very very good idea. in doing so, we screw up their tempo and gain our own timewalk without the 2cc slot. let's face the fact that we all want to lay down a second turn riverboa and just lay the unblockable beats on for ten turns for the kill.

[nataz]

kinda sorta,
here is what I am testing

14 beats
1x Gorilla Shaman
4x Grim Lavamancer
4x Spiketail Hatchling- (possibly cut for another mana source 80% sure that I wont however)
4x River Boa
1x Call of the Herd

16 good cards
4x Force of Will
3x Null Rod
4x Brainstorm
4x Curiosity
1x Ancestral Recall

7 Test Slots
2x daze
2x Crucible of Worlds
3x Stifle

23 mana
1x Strip Mine
4x Wasteland
4x Mishra’s Factory (possible -1 factory + 1 volcanic island/mox)
3x Flooded Strand
3x Polluted Delta
3x Tropical Island
3x Volcanic Island
2x (either sapphire or ruby or em)

Im unsure about the mana because I may try and run one maindeck artifact mutation...

I would also like to fit in one more bit o' land to bring the count to 24. I dont know how you do it Jacob, but 25 land just seems overkill whenever I play it...

like I said, I've only been at this for a week, and I need to put some more time into this, but I am really enojoying this deck

[FreeZRManX]

There's an interesting little WTF/r decklist from a recent Finnish tourney. It placed 7th in a field of 64:

4 Grim Lavamancer
*4 Cloud of Faeries*
4 River Boa
3 Spiketail Hatchling

4 Force of Will
*1 Misdirection*
2 Null Rod
1 Stifle
*1 Echoing Truth*

4 Curiosity
*4 Standstill*
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall

4 Mishra's Factory
*2 Faerie Conclave*
4 Flooded Strand
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
1 Library of Alexandria
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Island

SB:
4 Oxidize
2 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Null Rod
1 Black Vise
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Seal of Removal

There are two missing slots. I'd ordinarily say Call of the Herd should be there, but the deck has cut Brainstorm for Standstill, with according modifications - -1 Spiketail Hatchling, -2 Call of the Herd, -1 Gorilla Shaman +4 Cloud of Faeries, -1 Fetchland, -1 Mox Sapphire +2 Faerie Conclave.

Also interesting are the maindeck tech slots. Echoing Truth and Misdirection. Misdirection seems a bit weak, with so few targets in the present metagame, but Echoing Truth seems quite good - bouncing Decree and Siege-Gang tokens, and bouncing problem permanents, IE Blood Moon.

Thirdly, Lightning Bolt in the sideboard - for random aggro? Is this matchup hard enough to devote four full sideboard slots to? Or is this Food Chain hate?

Seal of Removal for GAT seems rather good. Drop it extremely early, and as GAT has no maindeck enchantment removal, they either have to waste a Wish to kill it, or just play through it. Interesting.

Discuss!

[austinnadz]

it's also missing the daze we've been toying with along with the third null rod. it has to be a completely different metagame there. who would pass up the opportunity for the 3rd or even the 4th null rod with the amount of artifacts that we have running around? also, they don't have any maindeck artifact hate either, no oxidize or artifact mutation. This deck looks so much like the gay/r fish build that I don't think it's even a wtf build... they even had a black vise in the sideboard? wtf mate?

[FreeZRManX]

Bear in mind that that maindeck *is* 58 cards. So, #59 and #60 could be Null Rod #3 and Daze/Stifle #2.

The metagame call of fewer Rods surprised me as well. From what I've heard, if anything there's far more successful combo in Europe than in the US, especially Italy.

[Jacob Orlove]

Yeah, if you run Standstills, you pretty much have to run the clouds and conclaves too. That was one of the major reasons I cut standstill--it let me get rid of SIX terrible maindeck cards. Synergy is cool and all, but stronger cards + brainstorm has just been so good for me.

Echoing Truth is definitely a possibility for one of the disruption slots, though--I know Pern from Hadley has been running one in his weird U/r build for a while, and likes it. I doubt I could find room, though. Maybe I'll test it in place of the fire/ice.

[BreathWeapon]

The list isn't that odd, and I've seen several like it in STL (Standstill>Brainstorm). Most of us have gotten away with ditching Conclaves altogether, with Standstills. Boa is so much stronger than Voidmage in the Fish Mirror it doesn't matter your 2xMan Lands short.

Also, the more I play with Herd, the more I H8 the card. Gibbons or Guerillas would be a much better option, IMO.

[FreeZRManX]

What makes you hate Call so avidly? What's your meta? I play against 4cc and Fish mostly, and it's great against both - such a great late-game backbreaker.

[BreathWeapon]

It's slow and clunky, doesn't apply immediate pressure and feeds Mana Drain (I swear giving the opponent 3 Mana instead of 1 or 2 has PWNed me a ridiculous # of times). Short of FCG, I can't think of a single deck I ever wanted to see it against. I suggest you playtest with a Blank card in that space, and alterante between Gibbons and Herd. I'm pretty sure the Gibbons is simply superior.

[austinnadz]

well, the thing about CoTH is the fact that it's a one of (with the opportunity for a second off the flashback). So, hopefully, later in the game when you play it to seal the victory, you'd have the backup to play against the manadrain? And for that matter crucible and the riverboa's are prime manadrain targets as well...

[BreathWeapon]

Boas and Crucibles win games, CoTh doesn't. I just can't justify including it, and it makes me think of Operation Dumbo Drop ... which is the last straw.

[Magi]

I'm actually testing a Viashino Heretic in the place of one of the Calls...maybe I'm just paranoid that I'm gonna see a sea of Crucibles, Horns, Titans, and other artifacts not affected very much by Null Rod. From what I can see, the Call spot is modal, and can be tweaked with any utility creature that can be supported by the manabase.

I have also decided that the Timewalk spot is modal, and I'm even thinking of cutting Sapphire for another business spell. I'm scared this might lower the mana count too low though.

1x Gorilla Shaman
4x Grim Lavamancer
4x Spiketail Hatchling
4x River Boa
1x Call of the Herd
1x Viashino Heretic(could be 2:0 for either of these 3cc creatures)

4x Force of Will
2x Daze
2x Stifle
3x Null Rod
1x Oxidize/Crucible of Worlds? <-- used to be T.Walk

4x Brainstorm
4x Curiosity
1x Ancestral Recall

1x LoA
1x Strip Mine
4x Wasteland
4x Mishra's Factory
3x Polluted Delta
3x Flooded Strand
1x Island
3x Volcanic Island
3x Tropical Island

SB://
Meta dependent.


EDIT: IF you expect a lot of 4cControl and Fishy decks, keep the Calls in. They are soo good against those 2 particular decks.

[austinnadz]

well, if the deck hates you like it hates me, you should see a plethera of land. it's all I draw I swear to god. I'm thinking of cutting a fourth mishra's factory for something useful, I don't know what yet. maybe a coastal piracy just to ef people up, lol.

[Gabethebabe]

I don´t understand how people can cut Time Walk or side it out. It is an amazing tempo card in a tempo deck. Being able to lay an extra land in the first 2-3 turns is great and Walk when you have creatures on the table enables you to get you opponent closer to 0 and maybe you even draw cards when you have a Curiosity out.

[Detroit]

I have heard a lot of people say:
"oh, you're time walking to get an extra land drop, whatever."
I am personally of the feeling that especially in tempo based decks like this and even more so in gay/r fish, that extra land drop can be very critical, as can the extra card drawn. It can give you an extra threat (via manland or casting a creature) and give you more mana to cast a stifle/counter or something. Gaining this tempo advantage is critical to this deck, and time walk is a great facilitator of this goal and thus cutting it is a bad choice IMO.

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

Walk is just really, really good, and I see no reason to cut it for anything.  It replaces itself right away and gives you another land drop, attack, maybe even more mana, wait, look it gives us a whole extra turn for 1U; that's insane.

So, a major differance I have noticed in lists so far is that some run 4 fetches and 8 duals and some run 6 fetches and 6 duals.  What do you people think is better?  More fetches strengthens brainstorm ands cruicble, thins your deck more, and each fetch can give you acess to R or G, whereas additional duals drawn could be the same splash colour you already have access to or duals in sarting hand could not match with splash colour cards drawn.  On the other hand, it makes you vulnerable getting a colour shut off by 3 strip effects.  Overall, I think that the 6/6 plan seems more stable in getting the right colour at the right time in addition to the brainstorm and crucible synergy.  The number of advantages outway the slim chance of getting a colour shut off, especially when your opponent drawing 3x strips early enough to matter and hitting the same dual with each one isn't very likely, and the man lands are painted targets as well.

Md crucible:  This card can obviously be simply insane and I know this from experience, having played with it myself in fish builds.  It seems a good fit for most metas as it is good against control, aggro, and prison decks.  The only decks is really sucks against are very fast combo decks, so unless these are common in the meta 1-2 crucibles definately warrent inclusion.

[austinnadz]

last night I played in a local type 1 tournament where there were no proxies, so of course I was unpowered. there were normally 4-5 people there, but this time, there were about 25 people there, it was ridiculous. I was unpowered and missing some cards so I had to make some cuts. my deck list looked like follows:

Creatures:
4x River Boa
4x Spiketail Hatchling
3x Grim Lavamancer
1x Suq'Ata Firewalker
1x Gorilla Shaman
1x Call of The Herd

Spells:
4x Curiosity
4x Force of Will
4x Brainstorm
4x Stifle
3x Daze (replacing ancestral)
1x Artifact Mutation

Land:
5x Blue Fetches
1x Wooded Foothills
3x Volcanic Island
3x Tropical Island
4x Mishra's Factory
4x Wasteland
1x Strip Mine
2x Island (replacing moxen)

My sidebaord is pretty much irrelivant.

All I played against were scrub.dec and two decks which were good one of which by a poor sideboard choice I would have had the match. The first good deck I played was Gay/R Fish. This deck we've all seen before, and I think that wtf/r should have it in the mirror match, but what it honestly appears to come down to is who resolves the grim lavamancer first or the firewalker first. because as soon as one of those hits the board, they can kiss their creatures goodbye and the game is won.

the second deck I played that was decent was a reanimoator deck. no one likes it when an akroma, angel of wrath hits the board followed by a platinum angel. I could deal with the plat, but the akroma just destroyed me. I asked my friend at the beginning of the tournament, think I should put tormod's crypt in my sb? Nah he says, there won't be a need. sure enough, in the first round of finals I play a reanimator deck. owned.

the deck played really very smooth like this. there were very little issues of not being able to pull a land when you needed it, and the factory beats were just awesome. the disruption provided by the 4 maindeck stifles and the 3 dazes were just superb, no one could keep anything on the board long enough for them to makle a critical play, or they never got anything on the board to begin with.

over all, this deck played very very well. it had the control that the fish mirror didn't have normally, and that really hurt them.

one thing this deck kinda of lacks at times is a draw engine. it hurts when you have to pitch curiosity to a force of will, but it hurts more when you have to face a 5/6 flying, trample, haste protection from red, protection from black, first strike, attacking doesn't cause it to tap attacker.  don't think anything can be worked into this deck, I don't think LOA really has a place seeing as it doesn't have the standstill to propel the draw. but the brainstorm is a very very good choice over the standstill. it's hard to lay the beats when you an't break your own standstill.

[honkeyb5]

austinnadz:
VS. Reanimaor
This is why you have Mazes and buounce in the sideboard, to deal with fat stupid creatures bigger than yours.  Sigil of sleep + Lavamancer = you win.

You could also run unsummon, if you fear dragon decks.  It will wreck them more than tormod's crypt, because you can use the stack against them.

[Detroit]

Oh, don't worry, he would have had mazes in his sidebpard along with all kinds of other stuff....if he had a sideboard. I called him from the store and asked if he was coming when we were getting ready to start. HEaring the 20+ turnout that was there vs. the usual 5 people, he hauls ass over there and borrows like a bunch of key cards from me and we start, him having no real sideboard of consequence. As a note, he asked before he started should he have tormod's crypt in his board and me being the tool that I am say no since no one will be playing reanimator. gg me for being a tool.

As far as the deck was concerned, it performed much better than I thought it would, and handled the gay/r mirror very smoothly. My main fear when first seeing this deck was the vulnerability of the mana base, but it hasn't ever really been a problem in all the games I have watched him play, as long as you properly use the fetches.

Also, random aside, i played a joke Trix deck, with green splash soley for dryads. Man was that thing a hilarious pile to play. I was a big fan of my turn two Crucible/Strip mine lock i pulled one game (after boarding).

Good job with the deck man, keep playing it and testing things out as I feel that it is a very strong deck and one that so far doesn't seem to hate you.

[Magi]

There aren't many decks that can deal with a really fast Akroma, it's not something WTF/r should be worried about.

[nataz]

I personaly play with unsummon in the board to deal with Dryad, dragon, and fat.dec

I was thinking of running E. Truth instead, but there aren't many permanents that I cant handle once I side in game 2, and that U CC @ instant speed is money.

[Cross]

even with my truth in the mb in my fish build I also run an unsummon in the side for those exact reasons.

[lil-Devil]

But why use unsummon when you can use chains of vapor..?? it can bounce any non-land , and if they copy the spell, they need to sac a land; which dragon player dont wanna do.

just my 2cc

[austinnadz]

I think you're all missing the point of my post.

when I played the deck, it ran smoothly. it was very well balanced, not susceptible to color screwage or anything. I was skeptic at first whether or not with the three colors would go over well. but after playing it at a tournament, it went very well and there were no kinks at all. the brainstorms worked most well, and I don't think that I would need standstill. the only issue I had was that in comparison to fish, this deck doesn't draw as well. but it didn't matter really. I don't think that the draw is an issue with the 2/1 regenerating beasticks, w00t!

my comment on the akroma was just a cheapshot at my friend who said there would be no reanimation and I wouldn't need the crypt's in my sideboard. but it's all good and he knows that.

but as to the recomendation of the return to hand spell, I think that I may be able to ditch a 4th stifle to do it. I would play echoing truth over chain of vapor. it returns all with the same name for the same casting cost 1U as opposed to UU, and there is no chance of it coming back at your face (ignoring misdirection or any other type of counter-action spell).

[lilmidget]

but as to the recomendation of the return to hand spell, I think that I may be able to ditch a 4th stifle to do it. I would play echoing truth over chain of vapor. it returns all with the same name for the same casting cost 1U as opposed to UU, and there is no chance of it coming back at your face (ignoring misdirection or any other type of counter-action spell).

Chain of Vapor costs U not UU. I think you're mistakening it for Boomerang.

But anyway, I would still play Echoing Truth over Chain of Vapor because the ability to bounce Siege Gang tokens and Decree tokens, both of which can mean gg, is just too good to let go.

[Cross]

But why use unsummon when you can use chains of vapor..?? it can bounce any non-land , and if they copy the spell, they need to sac a land; which dragon player dont wanna do.

The only issues I have with chain is that I don't have any. The other, more reasonable issue is that all of the fish builds run curiosity, and that can be wasted if they decide to bounce the enchanted creature. That's not such a huge issue with dragon, but if you decide to side it against any other deck with a more stable manabase they can throw it back in your face. Again, not such a huge issue but one worth considering.

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

Chain of vapour is not good, because, as mentionioned, they can bounce your creatures, which hurts your tempo or even costs you a card if it was a curious creature.

Echoing truth is good, mass token nukage/multiple evil dude bounce + 1U > being able to bounce land with boomerage or them bounce your stuff with chain.

For the extra 1cc of truth it becomes much more versatile than unsummon.  They still both have their merits, however; 1cc makes a big difference in t1, especially in a deck like this.