4 Color SUPER GROW! AKA BFD

[TrixR4Kidz]

After 5D became legal, i've decided to make a version of grow, that kind of uses a cross between suicide GAT and dryadhate, I've been testing and it's been ok, but i haven't gotten to test against anything but 7/10 split....Ouch, I think it has potential and seems to be really fast and powerful, heres what i run

Mana//21
4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
3 Islands
1 Mox Saphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black lotus
5 Fetches

Sweetness//35
4 FoW
4 Mana drain
4 Accumulated Knowledge
4 Brainstorm
2 Cunning wish
2 Serum Visions
2 Skeletal Scrying (I like this alot better then Night's Whisper)
2 Duress
2 Damping Matrix
1 Yawgs will
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Time walk
1 Fastbond
1 Gush
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Ancestral Recall

Kill//4
4 Qurion Dryad


I think this deck has some potential, it draws cards and filters through the deck at an extremely fast rate, making it possible for me to find yawgs nearly every game, Do you guys have any opinions, Also sideboard is set for appropriate meta game, thanks.


EDIT: Big F'in Dryad.... is the name of the deck it's determined!

[Toad]

How is Night's Whispers better than Deep Analysis?
How is Skeletal Scrying better than Intuition?

And finally ...

How is Quirion Dryad better than Psychatog?

[Moxlotus]

Toad is right on.  This is Togless Tog.  You should play Tog or play GAT.  GAT without togs=bad.

[TrixR4Kidz]

I don't want to play tog, i never said scrying was better then any of those, but tog is played in more of a controlled format, this is faster, i don't really like GAT, it's not that great, and it doesn't run mainboard damping matrix which I currently like to considering the meta game, so get off my piece, i didn't want to be insulted i just wanted suggestions, if i wanted to play tog i'd play HULK not GAT


Hulk > GAT good game nub

[Moxlotus]

I don't want to play tog, i never said scrying was better then any of those, but tog is played in more of a controlled format, this is faster, i don't really like GAT, it's not that great, and it doesn't run mainboard damping matrix which I currently like to considering the meta game, so get off my piece, i didn't want to be insulted i just wanted suggestions, if i wanted to play tog i'd play HULK not GAT


Hulk > GAT good game nub

You are saying Scrying is better than those cards by playing it and not the others when they accomplish the same goal.  I am in no way trying to "get on your piece" so calm down, jeez.  If you can't take any criticism then don't post.  All I am saying is that it looks a hell of a lot like Tog, just without the Togs and not much else different.

[TrixR4Kidz]

actually i am using scryings because it's a controlled way to draw, you can draw alot or a little and it pumps dryad up, Intuition would only serve for putting the AK's in yard, but i want to actually cast the AK's to fuel the dryad, i'm not running a tog build, i never even looked online at a build to make this, i just put cards together that run actually pretty well, i can take the criticism, but i just wanted suggestions on the deck, not be told that i'm not running tog, cuz he's good? this deck is still good and fast in my opinion, also, about the night whispers response, why is night whispers being compared to deep anal again? I don't use Night Whispers. I was just saying i like scryings better cuz they just are....

[goober]

There is nothing wrong with Togless Tog, as long as its replacement is some Deathlaces and Reaps.

I assume that there is some red SB to justify those Volcs.

This deck is far too random to have any real consistancy.  There are a load of 2 ofs, when they should be 4 ofs.  Duress doesn't work well as a 2 of because you need it early on to get your Dryad through uncountered, or to stop combo.

I don't want to play tog

i don't really like GAT

i like scryings better cuz they just are....

A lot of this seems based on your opinion of cards other than hard testing.  Night's Whispers has shown itself to be more useful in GAT (which this is just a suboptimal version of)  than scrying.  It helps you get you to your Dryad faster, and that is all that matters.  Tog is very useful in it because then you have more win conditions, and running only 4 isn't very effective when you need them early.  Tog can randomly show up late game when he can be zerked over for the win, if something disrupts the Dryad plan. This deck is based around the same concept as GAT except is it less optimal.  If you like the 2 Damping Matrixes then you should get a more developed and tested GAT list and fit them in.  It is perfectly fine to make a deck from scratch, commenable even.  However, when you ask for suggestions you need to expect people to say it has been done before, but better.

[PandaPokemon]

What happens when you don't get a dryad early enough or if they use echoing truth on your dryads.  At least in most gro builds, they have mystic enforcer or werebear even to some extent  as finishers, which are big creatures that can clean up when they come down late in the game.  Similarly, Tog just wins too by coming down at the end.  I agree with the posters above that Tog in place of Dryad would seem more appropriate in this deck, and Night Whispers in place of scrying would seem more appropriate since you would want a cantrip deck.

i didn't want to be insulted i just wanted suggestions, if i wanted to play tog i'd play HULK not GAT

I don't think anybody was insulting you.  Did I miss any personal attacks up there?

Hulk > GAT good game nub

But that seems like an insult... Anyway if you wanted to play this deck over Tog or over any of the above suggestions, go ahead.  However, you ask for suggestions an invariably the points that Toad brought up are pertinent.  Good luck with your deck!

[TrixR4Kidz]

I'm just confused why you guys think whisper's are better in this build then scrying's, how does it get to it faster, it's a sorcery speed, and you get to draw the same or more amount of cards with scrying, it also operates better under drains, and for a suprise draw, it's not THAT dramatic that scrying is in a different deck then a deck with angel, it's still a good card, whispers don't "get to your dryad" faster, and yes, running four dryads for a kills is fine, cuz you draw so many cards, you can get to it fast, if you don't believe me you can try and test it, even though apparently everyone hates it, but it's ok, it's NOT GAT, i don't want it to be GAT, why is it that big of a deal, it's just grow.



Fit damping matrix's in with GAT, would seem kind of silly, considering matrix shuts down tog himself, so it'd be playing a grow deck with a couple 1/2's for 3, but thats ok.  And i have done testing, i tested whispers in the deck, and i've tested scryings, the fact of the matter is scrying is better late game, and nearly as good early game, also 2 duress, i agree could maybe go up a little but, but i'm drawing so many cards where i don't have to cast dryad without drain/force backup, and alot of the metagame right now is welder decks and aggro, which duress ends up being semi useless, the point of the deck is to filter through fast, get dryad out and protect him, It works alot better then you'd probably expect, but then again i didn't really netdeck so it's not possible for it to be a good idea, I can take all the suggestions, but noone is really suggesting anything besides saying something about how i should be running togs, but then i have to say yet again that i don't want to run GAT, I want to build dryad faster, and it does run berserk side, and you can get dryad big enough in this deck to berserk him for the win, i've done it, i'm gonna keep testing the deck as much as possible and take it to a tourny and i'll let you know how I do, I think i can suprisingly beat some decks

[PandaPokemon]

I did pretty well with the more traditional supergro build in a tourney recently and so my comments is in comparison with a traditional build with threshold (werebears and mystic enforcers)

Anyway, in one game in the swiss, I had 15/15 dryads on the board and the opponent was at one life.  The problem is he made a whole bunch of chump blockers and with no berserk (trample) or mystic enforcers (flying), I couldn't finish him off.

In my semi-final match vs control slaver, I wasn't able to draw enough creatures.  You have four dryads but you need to put down a dryad early and hope to be able to protect it. (And I had 4 dryads, 4 werebears, 2 mystic enforcers)

So in a scenario versus another control deck, i.e., 4C control or Control Slaver- You try to lay down an early dryad, he forces you force, he drains.  You are down one dryad.  The problem is you cannot afford to wait for him to tap out so that you can safely lay down a dryad.  You have to put it down early obviously if you have the dryad so it can get big.  Sometimes, you lay the dryad safely down only to have it Fire/Ice.  You need to protect it for one/two turns after laying it down.

Against 4C control, they have Swords of Plowshares which is worse because you cannot bring back the drayd after Yawgmoth's Will and you shouldn't rely on that card solely as a win condition.  

I don't doubt that you can draw a dryad easily with all the drawing, but the problem lies that if you do not draw it early, you are going to be in for a rough game.

Night's Whisper Vs Skeletal Scrying:
Night's Whisper costs less mana, and is more cantrippy which is probably what you want in order to make your dryad bigger.  For example, Night's Whisper into a Brainstorm (3mana) versus Skeletal Scrying for 2 (3mana)
Your dryad will be bigger now!

Also. other problems you might face, Meddling Mage for Dryad, Echoing Truth on your dryads.  These will delay your dryad being laid, and the problem is like unlike GAT or Trad. Threshold SuperGro, you don't have a backup plan which you can lay down a creature later and pose a threat.

EDIT :
PS - Another problem I faced is other sideboard cards like FlameTongue Kavu.  Invariably, you would lose a few dryads along the way sometimes.  I would think you need more creatures.  In the old Eba builds, they had 4 dryads, and 2 negators? 1-2 exalted angels?.  

PPS: Sorry if I am incoherent.  Too much partying with people in the local pub after the Dutch Oranje progressed to the quarters of Euro2004.  Go Van Nistelrooy!

[TrixR4Kidz]

Yes, but you can scry for 2 cards at the end of their turn and draw your brainstorm, then brainstorm into something else, can't do that with whisper, I like to keep my mana open for respond mana, but thank you, you had the first post where you didn't really trash me, i appreciate that

[goober]

I have played Grow based decks a lot actually, I know how fast they rip through the deck, and Whispers does it better.  These are the 2, and only 2 situations which Gro can win.  Turn 1-3 Dryad with Fow/MisD/Duress backup hopefully, then being able to keep it alive until the end.  The other way is try to do that, have it be killed or whatever, when drop a late game Tog and zerk it.  If you plan to go through turn 1-5 looking for a dryad then start buildig it, either combo killed you, aggro ran over you, or control won't let it resolve.

I have playtested and I also lie Scrying, just not as much as Whispers.  I posted my decklist from a few weeks ago on the Gat thread in Open Forums and it runs Scrying.  I have since cut it down to 2, because the lifeloss hurts versus a main bad matchup, FCG.

About you not netdecking so it can't be a good idea.  This is a deck that is already in existance and played.  It has been tuned into a good deck.  Just because you made it up on your own doesn't mean I am dismissing it, I am just saying the other version is better, after extensive playtesting.  The Whispers makes the Dryads grow faster, and the Togs make for some resiliancy, which your deck lacks.  You have less cantrips, which means slower growing.  Serum Visions should be a 4 of, it is great.  It gets you to the Dryad faster, and makes you go off faster with her out.  Saying Scrying is better lategame is flawed, because it isn't.  Casting 1 spell to draw 5 is a lot worse than casting 3 to get 4.

[PandaPokemon]

Why I like Night's Whisper over Scrying is that you don't have to remove cards from your graveyard and I rather pump the dryad for an extra point of damage on my turn.  Of course, I was talking in relation to normal SuperGro with no Mana Drain.  I tried to make a similar deck like this without Togs but gave up as I couldn't get a good Threshold Creature with black like Mystic Enforcer (W/G, pro black blocks togs hehe).  Maybe if you can think of a good backup plan, your deck consistency will improve and the deck will be much stronger.

Incidentally have you looked at traditional SuperGro decks with many Serum Visions etc.  I be glad to play with anyone with CCGLAckey since I own a Mac and can't use those damn PC programs!

[TrixR4Kidz]

well your first problem is owning a mac....




but then again, I will never see your reason of liking whispers better then scryings ever, sorcery speed is huge in type 1, and i think you need it to be an instant, it's not more cantrippy and doesn't get through your deck faster, yes i may try out more then 2 visions, i'm just in the process of playtesting, and i've done failry well so far, better with the scryings, when you scry for 5, your going to draw a bunch more cantrips, which leads into more cantrips....YES i said it, scrying is possible outside of germbus!!! holla

[Toad]

Additionnaly, I fail to see what's the point of running maindeck Damping Matrix?

* They cost 3 manas and don't pump the Dryad on your turn 3. Turn 2 Dryad, turn 3 Damping Matrix, swing with a 1/1 Dryad. Savage ...

* They are bad/weak against GermBus, Fish, Gay/Red, WTF, Tog, TPS, Draw7, etc...

And yes, Night's Whispers is better than Skeletal Scrying in this deck. You don't want to draw billions of cards thanks to a single draw spell. You want to cast multiple draw spells each turns to pump the Dryad. Quirion Dryad does not get +1/+1 for each card you draw but for each spell you play.

[VGB]

Except that Scrying lets you leave mana open on your turn, doesn't require double colored mana, can play into combat tricks, and can conceivably only cost B (to net zero cards, lose zero life, and pump Dryad +1/+1).

Scrying also works better with Mana Drain.

[goober]

Except that Scrying lets you leave mana open on your turn

Which is the wrong way to play, you are the beatdown, not control.  If for some reason you are control, then the life loss is noticable, so doing it for more than 2 isn't advisable, and Whispers is better.

doesn't require double colored mana

neither does Whispers...

can play into combat tricks

Insanely irrelevant.  This will almost never come up.  Even if it does, it will be much less often then the Whisper's advantages.

Scrying also works better with Mana Drain

I hate Drain in this, leaving UU open sucks with the sorcery speed Visions, and the fact that this deck actually tries to grow the Dryads before they attack.

[VGB]

I must have had Hymn to Tourach on the brain, misremembering a casting cost like that.

Unless I missed the gist of this deck, it is playing control with undercosted beats.

You people should stop trying to turn it into GaT or Hulk, and give suggestions solely based on its merit, or lack thereof.  We all know what GaT and Hulk look like.

I guess if I follow my own advice then:

Why no Intuition?

[Toad]

Except that Scrying lets you leave mana open on your turn

That is irrelevant. With Dryad on the board (which is what the deck wants to achieve), all your spells have sorcery speed anyways.

Unless I missed the gist of this deck, it is playing control with undercosted beats.

Psychatog is a superior win condition.

[VGB]

is irrelevant. With Dryad on the board (which is what the deck wants to achieve), all your spells have sorcery speed anyways.

I don't quite understand this reasoning - please explain.

Psychatog is a superior win condition.

Did I say it wasn't?  I'm not the champion of bad decks - I just think this pile favors Scrying over Night's Whisper.

I would much rather play GaT, myself.

[JDawg13]

is irrelevant. With Dryad on the board (which is what the deck wants to achieve), all your spells have sorcery speed anyways.

I don't quite understand this reasoning - please explain.

In this situation, you want to play spells in your main phase (thus making them at sorcery speed) so that you pump your Dryad before attacking.  You're playing aggressively, so you want the Dryad as big as possible when entering an attack.

[VGB]

In this situation, you want to play spells in your main phase (thus making them at sorcery speed) so that you pump your Dryad before attacking.  You're playing aggressively, so you want the Dryad as big as possible when entering an attack.

That's what I sort of figured - except for the fact that combat damage isn't fixed until it goes on the stack.  This deck is more reactive and controllish than GaT.

[TrixR4Kidz]

when you get dryad out, not everything has to become sorcery speed, by time you get to turn 5, assuming you've dropped at least 1 mox, you can play multiple cantrips and still keep open drain mana, and tap out of you have a force, it's not a slow deck i can contest, i've actually play tested it, scrying is better in EVERY WAY then whispers, there is nothing about it that makes it better at all, even if you don't draw 5+ cards, you can still scry at the end of the turn, you do realize it is possible to draw whispers/scryings when you don't have a dryad out, so which one do you want to find the dryad faster? i'd go with the scryings, i don't like socery speed, yes you play alot during your turn when you have dryad out, but there is enough other cards in the deck to build him besides the two whispers, for instance, also if it's the only draw spell in your hand, you'll have a better chance to draw more of what you need rather then whispers.

[TrixR4Kidz]

That's what I sort of figured - except for the fact that damage isn't fixed until it goes on the stack.  This deck is more reactive and controllish than GaT.

exactly

[JDawg13]

except for the fact that combat damage isn't fixed until it goes on the stack.

Please don't think I was implying that combat damage goes on the stack as you declare attackers.  The idea I was trying to get across is that you don't care what speed your spells are with a Dryad out, as you want it to grow before attacking (yes, you CAN play spells in your attack phase, but why would you want to, unless out of necessity?).

Also, I find it hard to believe that you can have a deck that is "more reactive and controlling than GAT" and still play Dryad in the deck.  Generally, if you're running Dryad, you want to play it as soon as possible and just make it grow until you win.  Playing a bunch of stuff that's more reactive in nature simply contradicts the style of game that Quirion Dryad wants you to play.

[TrixR4Kidz]

Also, I find it hard to believe that you can have a deck that is "more reactive and controlling than GAT"

Never said it's more controlling then GAT, saying it's more controlling version then it is super agressive, while the deck is still agressive, it has a control factor to keep the dryad safe, rather then tapping out everyturn just to attack for a couple of points more.

[Toad]

while the deck is still agressive

This deck can't be aggressive as It only runs 4 creatures. You run as many win conditions as GermBus ! It's a true Control deck, that wants to drop a threat and protect it to the end. And Psychatog is a better creature than Quirion Dryad at doing this.

[TrixR4Kidz]

I know, but once again i don't want to run tog, he can get hated out farily easy, yea so can't dryad, but people expect to see tog now a days, I just want to run a dryad grow deck, not GAT or HULK, yea even if it is mainly control, it can still be semi agressive with the way it attacks and cantrips, but still leaving respond mana open

[?ISuck@MTG?]

This deck can't be aggressive as It only runs 4 creatures. You run as many win conditions as GermBus ! It's a true Control deck, that wants to drop a threat and protect it to the end. And Psychatog is a better creature than Quirion Dryad at doing this.

I think that Toad has it right there. Because this deck SHOULD be running tog. Even though you don't want to, it is far superior, and both of them are hated against, Tog's hate just seems for more prevelant (spelling?) but it is SO far superior to the Dryad. Dryad is +1/+1 for ever spell, whereas Tog is +1.5/+1.5 FOR EVER CARD IN YOU SEE IN YOUR HAND (on the given turn ofcourse)

But isn't there a reason you are running the disruption? To get rid of what might hate you out? or kill / remove your Dryad? Why not just protect a Tog?

Right now the deck is good. But nothing good is gained if Tog is left out... If it is put in, it becomes a different deck, which is pretty much all that much stronger.

EDIT: BtW, Skeletal is very nice in the deck

-?

[TrixR4Kidz]

EDIT: BtW, Skeletal is very nice in the deck

Better then whispers do you think?


Also do you guys think I should go up more duress or more serum visions, and if so what do you think would be a good cut, I kinda like the idea of a mainboard matrix, it seems to be a bomb verse the right kinda deck and a good sideout spot

I'm sure it would be better with tog, for now i'm gonna try it without, in the future, i may try out some togs in there