The New Face Of Welder-MUD??

[Thug]

Hey,

Lately I have been advocating MUD over Welder-Mud a lot, and the basic reasons for this should be clear by now (chalice for 1, speed, use-less lands etc.). However the metagame is shifting again, Slaver seems reduced to normal numbers and Tog and 4C-Control have started to become the most popular decks.

This calls for some changes in MUD and also makes Welder a better choice again. Before explaining the recent changes, here’s the decklist:

Welder-MUD July 2004 Testdeck (61 cards):
Adjusted for a controllish metagame

Lands: (18)

4 Mishra’s Workshop
3 Ancient Tomb
2 City Of Traitors
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
3 Mountain

Artifact Acceleration: (16)

7 Solomox
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
4 Metalworker
3 Aether Vial

The (Stripped Down) Core: (17)

2 Sphere Of Resistance
4 Trinisphere
3 Chalice Of The Void
4 Tangle Wire
4 Smokestack

Cute Tricks: (2)

1 Crucible Of Worlds
1 Memory Jar

Creatures: (8)

4 Goblin Welder
2 Karn, Silver Golem
2 Sundering Titan


Sideboard: (15)

Cards That Should Be Maindeck: (4)

2 Sphere of Resistance
1 Chalice Of The Void
1 Crucible Of Worlds

Other Cards: (11)

3 Triskellion / Serated Arrows
3 Razormane Masticore
1 Sundering Titan / Silent Arbiter / Ensnaring Bridge
3 Tormods Crypt
1 Silent Arbiter / Ensnaring Bridge


Yes, that’s right, I said Aether Vial.

Aether Vial is one of the best cards to cover up all of the weaknesses adding Welder brings into the deck. An early Vial can be followed by a Chalice for 1, and you still will be able to drop your Welders later on since Vial puts the cards into play, you don’t play them so it doesn’t trigger the Chalice. And by playing with Vial you can get away running 3 mountains (although 4 would be optimal), meaning you don’t have to cut any of the two-mana lands, so you lose very little speed.

Another great thing about Vial is that it makes your Welder dodge all your own disruption (Spheres, Chalice), it makes the Creature uncounterable and allows you to play it end of turn.

And if you don’t have a Welder to drop, Vial can be tapped for Wire, sacked to Smoke (when you get a mountain for example) etc. Also on a lucky occasion you ramp it up to 5/7 counters to drop uncounterable Karns/Titans.

Titans already saw play in various decks, also including some MUD builds, but right now the Meta is totally optimal for them. They shine versus Tog and 4C-Control mainly because of their ability, and against Fish the heavy body can win you games. This deck does not use Thirst and Welder to drop it, but relies on Metalworker and lands to drop the Titans. (and Vials)

Another Change is the single maindeck Crucible, an incredible card. Having a single one seems a bit random but it just randomly pops up to win games and with Welders in the deck you have ways to recur it. Obviously Crucible is best used in combination with either Waste/strip or Smokestack. Also it great at dodging wastes in various matchups. Or drawing it later on for a nice mana boost.

The Sideboard is a bit wicked, and (probably) still not optimal. The Silent Arbiters are a cute trick against FCG to buy a little more time to lock them out. But since they are actually pretty easy to play around, I haven’t settled on them yet.

The Masticores are mainly there for aggro-control matchups (fish and similar decks). It can toast every creature in those decks, and owns all their creatures in combat.

I hope this shows some new options to bring back the deck to its original power-level and I am highly interested in people’s thoughts on my changes to the deck.

Koen

EDIT: Another option to be considered is the use of maindeck Shamans, but this really begs for the 4th Mountains.

[Philatio]

If you find yourself relying on Cruicible much, or add the second one main, I would advocate the use of Mox Diamond as a mana source.

[VGB]

I really like the addition of Aether Vial - it synergizes superbly for the exact reasons you state, although it trades speed for the ability to unbalance already unbalanced lock components.  I see it's main use as sneaking in Welders under Chalice - which can also be accomplished with Quicksilver Amulet immediately (but the cost, of course, is prohibitive).

The only thing I don't like about this build is the lack of draw and search to lend consistency - the main thing that kills wMUD is sub-par opening hands that lead to mulligans, and the dependency on topdecking that can let your opponent come from behind.  Can any competetive T1 deck exist without any means of accelerated drawing and deck manipulation?

[defector]

Razormane is huge.  I alsmost put one into my slavery board and changed my mind at the last minute, like a fool.  It alone would saved me against fish.
defector

[Thug]

A 1-of Is not something you should rely on, but I almost never regret drawing it so arguing for the inclusion of the second is nothing more than logical, it's just that by adding Welder you lose all kinds of space the deck had before. So cards had to go, and the second Crucible was one of them.

Btw,

Here is my current list for MUD (for those interested):

Lands: (18)

4 Mishra’s Workshop
3 Ancient Tomb
2 City Of Traitors
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
3 Petrified Field

Artifact Acceleration: (13)

7 Solomox
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
4 Metalworker

The Core: (23)

4 Sphere Of Resistance
4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice Of The Void
4 Tangle Wire
4 Smokestack
1 Memory Jar
2 Crucible Of Worlds (not sure about these yet, probably better of as Skullcaps)

Creatures: (6)

3 Karn, Silver Golem
3 Sundering Titan

Koen


EDIT: (replies posted when I was typing)

I really like the addition of Aether Vial - it synergizes superbly for the exact reasons you state, although it trades speed for the ability to unbalance already unbalanced lock components. I see it's main use as sneaking in Welders under Chalice - which can also be accomplished with Quicksilver Amulet immediately (but the cost, of course, is prohibitive).

Thanks, it's true its mainly there for the welders. You could look at it as a bad mountain that doesn't eat up a land drop, just a single mana, doesnt produce mana but allows some cute tricks. Whatever, you can't compare it to mountain, it different, but simular in some way.

The only thing I don't like about this build is the lack of draw and search to lend consistency - the main thing that kills wMUD is sub-par opening hands that lead to mulligans, and the dependency on topdecking that can let your opponent come from behind. Can any competetive T1 deck exist without any means of accelerated drawing and deck manipulation?

Making Room for Card drawing means either cutting Welders, and Returning to MUD with Skullcaps, cutting even more disruption (which I explained multiple time, does not increase your changes at resolving threats). Or cutting the Beatsticks which changes this deck into full prison, and removes the options to just win, this is an option, but it's not the direction I want the deck to take.

[Mind_under_Matter]

I like the thought of Aether Vial for the Welders, but is the tempo loss of an artifact that isn't immediately usuable justifiable in these numbers? With the four cards you have in the sideboard as "Should be Maindeck" perhaps cutting one or two Vials and moving them to the sideboard?

For instance:
+1 Chalice of the Void
-1  Aether Vial
or
+1 Crucible of Worlds
-1 Aether Vial

[Razvan]

Hi Koen,

I have been thinking about Aether Vial as well, for the exact same reason you mentionned first. Workshop, Aether Vial, Chalice for 1 is a strong play, since it allows you to shut down a large part of your opponent's deck, and still be able to cast your welders.

2 things which come to mind.

First, you only have 7 ways in which to cast welders, 3 of which are exclusively only used to do so. Theoretically, Vials can be ramped up to 5 and 8 (Titan costs 8, not 7), but again, this is rare. I am not sure these 7 ways are enough. I would cut a Sphere of Resistance for 1 more Mountain. I've always liked 25 mana in wMUD.

Secondly, the 2 Titans. I think wMUD can safely accomodate 3, even 4. I don't see Karn being such a huge thing anymore. Early, he just does mana control killing their moxen (which the Titan does as well, just with lands), and lategame, your lock components are pretty weak, whereas Titan is not. Especially with 4 Metalworkers, 3-4 Titans can be very easily inserted and perform well. Maindeck, at least.

Also, curiously, I see you don't maindeck Triskelions. Why is this? I find that they are great at board control, and while they are generally dead in most combo match-ups, they rock against aggro, control and prison match-ups. Furthermore, they are far superiour to Serrated Arrows.

Anyhow, that's just my thoughts. Great deck.

-Razvan

[BrokenNut]

I just played WelderMUD to a 4-0 1st place last night at our local tourney. It wasn't against any great decks, but there wasn't many easy matchups, lot of aggro for some reason, usually it's all control there.

My list I had 2 Shaman's main deck, must say I luv those little buggers. They fit the whole deck so very well, and can cause so many random wins just like wastelands that they are invaluable to me. I am only running 1 Karn as a serious win condition, and even that I am thinking of replacing, though he does the whole mox monkey thing so replacing him with a 3rd Shaman seems a bad idea. And I can't think of any other lock components I would want to play.

I personally have a loathing for the chalice so I don't play any. And my deck had 2 Crucibles in the board, which is I think a very good place for them, bring them in just as you would Blood Moon. Hell, even replace the moons in the board with the cruciibles. They are good stuff like that. Nothing else seriously different. I ran only 3 Sphere of Resistance, 4 3sphere configuration. And then 1 more mountain and 2 Great Furnaces to make up for the additional red cards(Monkeys, and FTK's in the board).

I see your latest list dropped the Vials which I must agree with. Considering they only work with the welders, they aren't that good. Most of the time now welders die to Fire/Ice more than they get countered for me, so being able to sneak them in wouldn't matter much.

I am wondering, how are all those win conditions working out for you? Do you feel the deck is coming close to a 7/10/Stacker build feel? I remember when the first Stax list came out with NO win conditions other than welders. I like that idea and it works quite well. Most people will scoop when they realize the game is over. If they don't then you slow roll the match and try to get a 1-0 game score for the match. It's thier fault if they don't know to concede properly.

Are there any seriously bad matchups for this deck that is keeping it out of the spot light? Why does everyone hate on the deck so much. Last night it seemed very golden for me. Everyone I played against was bitching about how unfair the deck is and how stupid of a matchup it is for them. Especially the URphid player, hehe that was amusing.

[Jacob Orlove]

I see your latest list dropped the Vials which I must agree with. Considering they only work with the welders, they aren't that good. Most of the time now welders die to Fire/Ice more than they get countered for me, so being able to sneak them in wouldn't matter much.

Actually, that second decklist was MUD--it has no vials, because it has no welders.

[MarkPharaoh]

I really think you need Mind's Eye.  It makes your opponent think twice before playing something like Scrying or AK and is exceptionally strong against Hulk and 4cControl.  It can be tapped to Wire and still be used and it isn't shut down by Rod.  Even in matches where it's not as strong as lets say, some form of aggro like FCG, it's still an artifact, taps to Wire, make Worker stronger, Sacks to Stack and makes you draw a card every turn.  I ran Eye when MUD and wMUD was viable before and it was a savage beating if it resolved against most decks.

[mrieff]

I considered Vials in my Ravager deck as well for Welders, deciding against them because I found them too narrow. They are extremely effective in playing your Welders, but at the same time that's basically the only thing they will do...(expect for the limited usages you mentioned with Wire and Smokestack, but that's not enough IMO)
Also, if you topdeck a Vial with Welder in hand, you have to wait  afull turn to be able to play Welder.


One of the main advantages of Vials is their production of colored mana. If you trying to pursue this, having trouble with R occasionaly, I suggest looking at Chromatic Sphere. Unlike Vials, they are never a dead draw, being able to cycle. And they also work with Wire and Smokestack.

[Daniel_112]

An disadvantage of both the Vial and the sphere is that there vulnerable to null rod. I think you should find another card for the mana fixing problem. I was thinking about solemn simulacrum. It's really powerfull, it can fetch your mountain for your welder and it works very good with tanglewire/smokestack and the permanent war. If you got this card only with welder/smokestack, your drawing lots of cards and fetching your library empty of mountains.

+1 mountain
-1 tomb or city
+3 solemn simulacrum
-3 vials


You could go beatdown with him   :lol:

[Thug]

Secondly, the 2 Titans. I think wMUD can safely accomodate 3, even 4. I don't see Karn being such a huge thing anymore. Early, he just does mana control killing their moxen (which the Titan does as well, just with lands), and lategame, your lock components are pretty weak, whereas Titan is not. Especially with 4 Metalworkers, 3-4 Titans can be very easily inserted and perform well. Maindeck, at least.

Titans has a great ability, but Karn still wins in the beatdown race. Often you get to attack the same turn you cast it with all your other Artifact, and Karn also often is able to come out a turn earlier.

Titans stay a little fragile because of their casting cost. If you don't draw a Worker and face an early waste on your shop it can sit in your hand waiting for you to get more mana. In MUD I like to take this gamble, but in Welder-MUD the spots in the deck are to valuable to  one to a card that could be dead wieght.

My list I had 2 Shaman's main deck, must say I luv those little buggers. They fit the whole deck so very well, and can cause so many random wins just like wastelands that they are invaluable to me. I am only running 1 Karn as a serious win condition, and even that I am thinking of replacing, though he does the whole mox monkey thing so replacing him with a 3rd Shaman seems a bad idea. And I can't think of any other lock components I would want to play.

You probably took the other direction I spoke about, fully Prison. Shamans fit that deck perfectly. Congrats on the good finishes!

I am wondering, how are all those win conditions working out for you? Do you feel the deck is coming close to a 7/10/Stacker build feel? I remember when the first Stax list came out with NO win conditions other than welders. I like that idea and it works quite well. Most people will scoop when they realize the game is over. If they don't then you slow roll the match and try to get a 1-0 game score for the match. It's thier fault if they don't know to concede properly.

Stax had and has a different strategy, it plays a little more like a combo deck trying to get Smokestacks and Welders into play as soon as possible. The deck already loses Tempo by casting card-drawers so it cannot incorperate the creature plan since it would take the deck too much away from the prison-core.

The reaons to play with Creatures is not because you need them for a Kill (Welders and Workers are just fine for that) It because they add another dimension to the deck, and Stuff like Trinisphere followed by Titan just wins games.

I really think you need Mind's Eye. It makes your opponent think twice before playing something like Scrying or AK and is exceptionally strong against Hulk and 4cControl. It can be tapped to Wire and still be used and it isn't shut down by Rod. Even in matches where it's not as strong as lets say, some form of aggro like FCG, it's still an artifact, taps to Wire, make Worker stronger, Sacks to Stack and makes you draw a card every turn. I ran Eye when MUD and wMUD was viable before and it was a savage beating if it resolved against most decks.

I really can't find room for maindeck card-draw, but I agree that they could be a good sideboard option. For me, it does too little versus non control decks to make the maindeck.

One of the main advantages of Vials is their production of colored mana. If you trying to pursue this, having trouble with R occasionaly, I suggest looking at Chromatic Sphere. Unlike Vials, they are never a dead draw, being able to cycle. And they also work with Wire and Smokestack.

Chromatic Sphere were considered too, and actually weren't all that bad. But the problem os that when you cycle it, so that it doesn't become a dead card, you give up your red mana source, and just played a stupid catrip. And when you keep it in play, waiting for a Welder, it becomes a weak Vial. And it doesn't have the benefits Vial has (uncounterable, dodging Chalice / Spheres).

An disadvantage of both the Vial and the sphere is that there vulnerable to null rod. I think you should find another card for the mana fixing problem. I was thinking about solemn simulacrum. It's really powerfull, it can fetch your mountain for your welder and it works very good with tanglewire/smokestack and the permanent war. If you got this card only with welder/smokestack, your drawing lots of cards and fetching your library empty of mountains.

Solemn has incredible synergy with the deck, but also has incredible timing issues. You will never be casting it in your first two turns, since you have soo much better things to do. With Control rising this is less of an issue, but it is the reason for me Solemn never made it into Welder-MUD.

There are so many optios to try and dodge the red mana problem that there might be a better option, it just hard to find them. (hell, even the new Bauble fits the bill)

Koen

[MarkPharaoh]

I really can't find room for maindeck card-draw, but I agree that they could be a good sideboard option. For me, it does too little versus non control decks to make the maindeck.

Understandable.  Would your decision change if Hulk and 4cControl got even more popular?

There are so many optios to try and dodge the red mana problem that there might be a better option, it just hard to find them. (hell, even the new Bauble fits the bill)

Thinking about it, I actually like Wayfarer's Bauble.  It's a cheap one drop that powers up Worker.  Also, it can sit in play until you cast a Titan and then you can sack it to get the Mountain and play your Welder.  And since you won't use it right away, it can tap to Wire.  Just an idea but I think it's worth looking into.

[rvs]

I think adding Solemns is definately worth a few test-runs. You get 2 permanents for the price of one, and it's very good Smokestack fodder.

[BrokenNut]

I am going to agree with MoreFling here, the Solemns seem like a very good idea because of the synergy they have with the deck.

Another thought, you mentioned the reason for the beatdown creatures is because you wanted the deck to have diversity. Have you thought about also trying to fit in like 2 Staff of Dominations and then 1 Rocket Launcher/Goblin Cannon? That way you now have 3 ways to win, lockdown, beatdown, combo.

I am definately going to try all these new things out this weekend hopefully. And hooray for wMUD revival, glad to see not everyone thinks the deck is obsolete compared to Slaver decks(ugh, stupid decks).

[Thug]

Understandable. Would your decision change if Hulk and 4cControl got even more popular?

I don't know yet, only testing can tell. That also brings up the Skullcap vs. Mind's Eye argument again. I actually think I will give the Eyes another try because Tog and 4C-Control all run soo many juicy Eye targets (Brainstorm, LoA, Ancestral, Scrying, AK, DA)

Another thought, you mentioned the reason for the beatdown creatures is because you wanted the deck to have diversity. Have you thought about also trying to fit in like 2 Staff of Dominations and then 1 Rocket Launcher/Goblin Cannon? That way you now have 3 ways to win, lockdown, beatdown, combo.

This has been suggested/discussed before. The Staff comboes nicely with Worker, but aside from that, it's uses are very limited because of the high activation costs. A cannon/launcher isn't needed to combo with Staff because you can get infinitive mana, and thus infinitive cards. This allows you to drop any amount of disruption followed by a beatstick.

I may have said I wanted more diversity, but everything comes at a cost, and in the end it all boils down on with which list you have best changes in important matchups.

----------------

On the mana-fix slot. For now I don't want to exclude anything let, but a clear look at all the posibilities. Here's the current list (cards clearly suboptimal were not included, which others did I forget?)

- Vial
- Solemn
- Bauble
- Sphere
- Talisman
- Mountain (duh  )

At first Sight the Bauble seems inferior to Solemn, but you can slip it into play earlier and use it later, and it's still 1 mana less to play and activate.

I will temporarly replace the Vials with an open spot which could be any of these card and see which I like most.

------------------

How about the rest of the list? what is missing?
What about the sideboard? what do you see as matchups that need work?

Welder-MUD never was inferior to Slaver it was different, and a metagame can decide which is the better choice to play. Right now I feel this favors Welder-MUD and therefore I would be a good thing to put some more time into the deck.

Decks can only be inferioir to eachother if they share about 95% of the cards. And even then a metagame can call for odd choices etc.

------------------

Thanks for all the contribution so far, let's see if we can optimalize this deck.

Koen

[mrieff]

Chromatic Sphere were considered too, and actually weren't all that bad. But the problem os that when you cycle it, so that it doesn't become a dead card, you give up your red mana source, and just played a stupid catrip. And when you keep it in play, waiting for a Welder, it becomes a weak Vial. And it doesn't have the benefits Vial has (uncounterable, dodging Chalice / Spheres).

Agreed, but what about the major disadvantage on Vial, its very narrow use?

Solemn has incredible synergy with the deck, but also has incredible timing issues. You will never be casting it in your first two turns, since you have soo much better things to do. With Control rising this is less of an issue, but it is the reason for me Solemn never made it into Welder-MUD.

There are so many optios to try and dodge the red mana problem that there might be a better option, it just hard to find them. (hell, even the new Bauble fits the bill)

I can't see how the Bauble beats Solemn. Bauble requires 3 mana, 2 of which can't be Workshop mana. Solemn are not that harder to cast, work under Null Rod, and provide a 2/2 with a nice ability to boost.

[Thug]

I have done some testing against 4C-Control, Tog and T1 Affinity (something I have been working on too). And this are the results.

(S)= Suboptimal
(D)= Decent
(O)= Optimal

Bauble     4(S) 5(D) 1(O)
Mountain  6(S) 2(D) 2(O)
Solemn    2(S) 3(D) 5(O)
Vial         5(S) 3(D) 2(O)*
Talisman  3(S) 5(D) 2(O)

I might have downgraded the Vial because you often only later in the game get profit out of their advantages that aren't useful immediatly.
But that aside, these Statistics show that Solemn probably is better. But because these statistics were only taken from 10 games, and the random card only showed up 10 times (so, on an everage 1 shows up every game  ) it's shouldn't be given too much weight.

But I did like the Solemns a lot, and for now I will put them in the deck

------

This leads me to this upgraded version (also some minor changes in the rest of the deck, and it feels a little smoother right now)

Welder-MUD July 2004 Testdeck (60 cards):
Version 1.2

Lands: (18)

4 Mishra’s Workshop
3 Ancient Tomb
1 City Of Traitors
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
4 Mountain

Artifact Acceleration: (16)

7 Solomox
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
4 Metalworker
3 Solemn Simulacrum

The (Stripped Down) Core: (16)

2 Sphere Of Resistance
4 Trinisphere
2 Chalice Of The Void
4 Tangle Wire
4 Smokestack

Cute Tricks: (2)

1 Mind's Eye
1 Memory Jar

Creatures: (8)

4 Goblin Welder
2 Karn, Silver Golem
2 Sundering Titan


Sideboard: (15)

2 Crucible Of Worlds
2 Chalice Of The Void
2 Sphere Of Resistance
1 Mind's Eye

3 Razormane Masticore
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Triskellion

Changes are bold.

----------------

The sideboard changed too, and I made a scheme on how I like to sideboard in different matchups:

Control-Slaver: (need a little more testing to see if the Welder is the right call)

+2 Triskelion, +1 Mind's Eye, +2 Chalice Of The Void
-2 Sphere Of Resistance, -1 Karn, Silver Golem, -1 Sundering Titan, -1 Goblin Welder

Tog:

+1 Mind's Eye, +2 Sphere Of Resistance
-2 Chalice Of The Void, -1 Karn, Silver Golem

4C-Control:

+2 Crucible Of Worlds, +1 Mind's Eye
-1 Sphere Of Resistance, -2 Chalice Of The Void

Fish:

+3 Razormane Masticore, +2 Chalice Of The Void
-1 Mind's Eye, -2 Sphere Of Resistance, -2 Karn, Silver Golem

Dragon: (have to test more on Sphere vs. Trini, which is better to keep and which is better to board out)

+3 Tormod's Crypt, +2 Chalice Of The Void, (+2 Sphere Of Resistance)
-2 Sundering Titan, -1 Karn, Silver Golem, (-4 Trinisphere / -2 Sphere Of Resistance)

Mirror: (maybe a card other than Titan needs to go out)

+2 Triskelion, +2 Chalice, +2 Crucible
-4 Trini, -2 Titan

Belcher:

+2 Chalice, +2 Sphere, +2 Triskelion
-2 Titan, -1 Mind's Eye, -3 Tangle Wire

Draw-7:

+2 Sphere, +2 Chalice
-2 Titan, -1 Solemn, -1 Mind's Eye

Workshop Slaver:

+2 Triskelion, +2 Sphere, +1 Mind's Eye
-1 Titan, -4 Trini

FCG: (need help, and testing for this)

+2 Chalice, +2 Sphere, +x Trike, +xMasticore ???
-1 Mind's Eye, -2 Karn, -2 Titan, -... ???

-----------

Tell me what you think about this

Koen

[Thissa2]

Fish:

+3 Razormane Masticore, +2 Chalice Of The Void
-1 Mind's Eye, -2 Sphere Of Resistance, -2 Karn, Silver Golem

Sphere of Resistance is sick vs Fish.... I would NOT board it out.

[knater]

I disagree...
As a fish player I let sphere resolve game one, since you can generally cast whatever you need through the sphere by simply not activating manlands on a given turn.  

I would definitely board them out.

[MarkPharaoh]

Both the Masticore and Chalice are stronger against Fish then Sphere.  Masticore is almost an auto-win and they don't have too many ways to remove Chalice whereas Sphere is just a speed bump because of how much card drawing Fish can do to play out a land each turn to play what it needs to win.

[Daniel_112]

I'm glad you gave solemn a chance, its a really good card.

I Think that fish is a problem matchup, I don't know how good the spheres are against them. Don't forget that they have the ways to deal with this deck. They have answers for goblin welder, and they've got lots of mana denial. A sphere could work out very bad for you, it's very very risky against them. I don't know it for sure but why don't you side all out, for more big man?

They don't bother that you've got a sphere, there attacking your mana base. And their land can still hit you.

[Thug]

You guys pretty much mentioned all the reasons behind my sideboard strategy against Fish. Their mana-denial can make your Spheres backfire, and it hits realtively little cards in the deck.

Trinisphere is a lot better though, since it stops FoW and Daze, and still makes every 2cc card cost 3cc. So it does what Sphere does, and it does more. While at the same time Trini doesn't hurt your bigger artifacts, which are the ones most hard to cast versus soo much mana denial.

Chalice could be considered fir this matchup since Wastelands (from both sides) plays such an important role in the matchups, but I have no clue what to take out.

Koen

[Razvan]

Actually, a thought arises.

Workshop, Mox, Simulacrum is a fairly common combination in the opening hand. While it doesn't block your opponent on turn 1 (as it should), you can do mad things on turn 2, especially since you will have normally at least 6 mana (and if they waste your workshop, you will have 3, and a 2/2 critter).

Koen, I think the Solemns might be kick-ass for the deck, from my limited testing with it. I can run some simulations to find the exact proportions of this happening, if you wish.

[Thug]

If you read my lasts posts you would have seen that I'm running Solemn too (no offense). So far they proved to be the best manafixer, and I think there isn't anything better yet.

But I have never casted it turn 1 jet. Basicly every non-mana card in your deck is better first turn than Simulacrum is. Ramping up to 6 mana is cute. But when it cost you four mana, and most likely your whole turn it isn't worth it. You basicly spend a turn getting an extra land into play, and I don't think I have to explain what this does to your tempo. And this deck is all about tempo.

Surprisinlgy, I found 4C-Control an easier matchup that Tog so far, 4C-Control looks much harder on paper, with wastes, shamans and such. Tog seemed to be able to Wish for Destruction earlier and more frequent.
I wonder what other people's finding about these matchups are. Right now I feel 4C-Control is slightly favourable, and Tog almost even. (maybe slightly better)

After sideboarding both matchups become harder, because they don't have to wish for their destruction anymore, and in both cases you should be attacking their Red mana as aggresivly as you can. Crucible has proved amazing though, sideboarding it in vs. 4C-Control.

Koen

[Razvan]

Yeah, I saw, but just wanted to make that extra point.

Problem is, you don't want to fall into the trap of:

Workshop -> Trinisphere
Wasteland -> Workshop

This is by far one of the most dangerous plays, since you might be stuck without mana, and your own Sphere hurting you. This was my thought on circumventing it. It is all about tempo, but sometimes, it can act as a safety net. This is not necessary against some matchups, but against control, I think it's vital.

4c Control is a tough matchup. I think it might be the toughest matchup for this deck.

And yes, Crucible is a beast against it. In fact, it's probably a great thing to have first turn, since it's a must counter, otherwise...

I will test with more Crucible's. Maybe 2 maindeck, 1 SB? Instead of the Sphere of Resistance?

[Thug]

Problem is, you don't want to fall into the trap of:

Workshop -> Trinisphere
Wasteland -> Workshop

This is by far one of the most dangerous plays, since you might be stuck without mana, and your own Sphere hurting you. This was my thought on circumventing it. It is all about tempo, but sometimes, it can act as a safety net. This is not necessary against some matchups, but against control, I think it's vital.

The point is that you shouldnt be left without mana, you should have already dropped all jewelry you had in your opening grip, and you should also have at least 1 more land.

If you opponent Wastes you workshop after resoving Trini, they are also set back to zero mana, so you don't need the full speed anymore, and tomb + waste will do just fine.

If you kept a hand with just Shop + Mountain/Waste, you deserve losing to a wasteland. But often you already have some information about what your opponent might be playing, and this also helps you deciding whether to keep or mull such a hand.

For Instance, against Tog, having just a Shop and a Waste is just fine, since they wont hit your lands. But against Fish I would defenitly consider mulliganning.

Koen

[Razvan]

It's not quite that simple.

Obviously, you drop your jewelry before you drop the trinisphere. But if you, say, have no jewelry, and only have 2 more mana sources after the workshop, and it's a good hand, you'd be inclined to keep it, and work from there. A 3 land hand is good to keep, but if the other 2 lands don't produce 3 mana...

And usually, the other player has kept a 3-land hand too. Now, it becomes a question of top-decking that third mana source, and I am sad to report that most other decks have a better chance at doing so, as they aren't as reliant upon artifact mana.

Not Hulk in particular, but other builds. (Tog is Hulk with wastelands).

Actually, hell, just go Workshop -> Metalworker, that should set things right.

But you are correct. Match-up knowledge is very important. But I still probably can't keep a Shop/Waste hand against anything, unless i am VERY certain I can get a 2nd turn play that's good, aka, Simulacrum.

[orgcandman]

regarding simulacrum - This guy, at first, looks like a natural inclusion. However, solid testing shows that he's marginally better than a fetchland. The problem is, unless you can bring him down turn 1, and be able to make an insanely broken play next turn, there are other things you'd rather be doing with 4 mana (beats ala fatty, or establish lock pieces). not only that, but the simulacrum does a job that you can do with other cards more efficiently in the later game. Although he has amazing synnergy with smokestack, it doesn't seem like his inclusion is warranted simply because he's a very good turn 1 play. In the midgame, wouldn't you rather draw something to win outright instead? I'm sorry if my post seems a little ignorant, as I've only been playing workshop based decks for about 2 months, but I'm pretty sure that more testing will reveal the fact that he just doesn't significantly shorten the path to victory.

Pros:
- sac to stack and draw a card
- comes down turn 1 to improve mana base

Cons:
- casting cost of 4
- 2/2 body
- doesn't particularly strengthen the deck vs. any significant weaknesses.