[Deck] Affinity Revisited

[Ric_Flair]

I know there is an affinity thread in the Type 1 forum, but it is closed so I decided to open a new one, especially in light of the new set.  

NOTE:  If the mods want to close this thread, go right ahead.

Here is a version of Affinity I put together:

Affinity Core Cards:
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Arcbound Worker
4 Frogmite
4 Myr Enforcer
4 Shrapnel Blast
4 Disciple of the Vault
4 Ornithopter

Draw Cards:
4 Skullclamp
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Yawgmoth's Will

Extra Route of Victory:
2 Tendrils of Agony

Mana Sources:
8 Solomoxen Crypt
4 Great Furnace
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Glimmervoid
4 Darksteel Citadel

This version is, obviously, solely red and black.  I have  goldfished a bunch of times and playtested against my own Tog deck and a Fish deck with Null Rod (not pretty).  It is incredibly fast, as is to be expected.  The Tendrils, while seemingly good on paper, don't seem to make that big of difference.  I usually get a Tendrils with the Storm count at 5-6.  I have goldfished about 50 games and I have got 2 Tendrils for 10.  That is not too promising.  I am basically using them as a back up or in case of Null Rod, cast a bunch of crap and throw stuff at my opponent.

I have tried the deck with Workshop and it worked okay, nothing spectacular.  The mana for artifacts only often made it difficult to cast Tendrils.

Another build I threw together this evening was this:

Affinity Core Cards:
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Arcbound Worker
4 Frogmite
4 Myr Enforcer
4 Shrapnel Blast
4 Disciple of the Vault

Draw Cards:
4 Skullclamp
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Timetwister
1 Ancestral Recall

Broken Stuff:
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Timewalk

Extra Route to Victory:
2 Tendrils

Mana Sources:
8 Solomoxen Crypt
4 Great Furnace
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Glimmervoid
4 Seat of the Synod

This was not as consistent as the Red/Black version, but it seems much more explosive.  And Ornithopter is SO JANKY in Vintage.  

I have no idea about the sideboard, other than the requisite Invasion artifact kill for Null Rod and Genesis Chamber, which seems good enough to make the maindeck sometimes.

Here are a few cards I have been thinking about from the new set:

[card] Paradise Mantle [/card]
I am not sure where this would fit, but it would likely smooth out the mana issues in the three color version and it is free to cast.  But then it opens up more liability to Null Rod.  

Artificer's Intuition
Well this card is so tempting.  It is a Survival for about half the deck.  It also smooth's out mana problems, but it sort of antithetical to the whole deck idea of winning this very minute.  

[card]Pendant Prism[/card]
So this card seems less than great initially, but it adds to Storm, costs no mana in total, converts mana of one color to mana of any color (good for the BB in Tendrils), adds to Affinity counts, and can be sac'd to Arcbound Ravager.  

Any ideas, comments, or suggestions?

Like I said, if this is a non-kosher topic mods, close this down.

[MuzzonoAmi]

I've been toying around with Affinity, but the instability (espeically with regards to the mana base and susceptibility to Null Rod) has made it my 3rd choice (ranking below 'über tech' and GAT). I have a build that can consistently Goldfish turn 4, but it's got a long way to go before it can compete, since it has 0 disruption. For your build, I'm unsure about the use of Sharapnel Blast over Genesis Chamber. Has it made that much of a difference? For me it wasn't speeding up my Goldfish significantly, cost me an artifact, and an early threat. Also, it makes running a ton of tiny creatures less of a burden by effectively doubling their power, and Skullclamp-ability - things that should speed up your Goldfish SIGNIFICANTLY in this sitiuation. I'm going to get a build set up and posted by tomorrow night, and I'll fill you in on how it does then.

[jpmeyer]

If there's a way to make the Ironworks deck that I put in my last SCG article more Affinity-y, I'd probably run that.  It's got a pretty consistent turn 2 kill but it's so much weaker at the standard aggro draw that you can't even really consider that an option.

[Vegeta2711]

Cranial Plating is pretty good when nearly every card in your deck is an artifact. You also don't -need- 24 mana sources, if you want some extra space. About 20-22 is fine, depending if your curve cuts out on 2 other than Timetwister.

[MuzzonoAmi]

I had totally forgotten about the Ironworks. Thanks for reminding me. I'll try it out.

[Matt]

I really have to question how Tendrils is supposed to be an alternate win in the face of Null Rod: how were you planning to get that 2BB? I don't think relying on Glimmervoids is going to fly, since any deck packing Rods is also packing five Strips.

Also, four Ornithopter seems like so many. You never really want to draw more than one, especially in the non-Cranial Plate builds.

After playing around with affinity decks for a couple weeks, I almost want to cut Skullclamp. Nothing you run is truly Clampable except for Workers, and those aren't the best. Nor is it very good to clamp a Frogmite or something, because who's gonna block it in this format? No one, that's who. The only other guy small enough to clamp is Disciple, and you're in a bad, bad way when you don't want HIM on the board.

[Ric_Flair]

Your right about the Tendrils and Null Rod.  It is no help...I completely forgot that the artifact lands are shut off too.  That might be enough to make me abandon this deck entirely...how could I overlook such a basic rule...duh.  I played this deck T2 so much and I just ignored the Damping Matrix stuff...I forgot that Null Rod shut the artifact lands down too.

Assuming we can figure out someway around that card, Skullclamp, I think, always belongs.  Really about half the time I am Clamping guys I am planning on sac-ing.  This makes the Ornithopters better than they seem otherwise.  For 2R you can deal 5 damage and draw two cards...that is a pretty good deal.  I still see their limitations, especially without Tooths like in Standard, but they seem to be really helpful.  

I am so bummed about the Null Rod artifact land thing....I feel like a newb...

[kirdape3]

The answer to Null Rod is to drop Myr Enforcer and maul the wee fishies.  You can get to seven artifacts really easily even under Null Rod, and free 4/4s are still good.  If you go first, drop a Ravager then all-in the Ravager (sac the entire board to it save Enforcers) in response to Null Rod.  The number of Null Rod packing decks that can handle 4/4s and 5/5s or bigger is one (U/G Madness), and I'm the only one still playing that.

[MuzzonoAmi]

Here's what I've got cooked up. I want more disruption, but the actual deck itself seems to be soild, but a tad rough around the edges:

4 Glimmervoid
4 Underground Sea
2 Seat of the Synod
2 Vault of Whispers
8 SoLoMoxenCrypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Myr Enforcer
4 Arcbound Worker
4 Skullclamp
4 Frogmite
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Disciple of the Vault
4 Genesis Chamber
3 Krark-Clan Ironworks
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Timetwister
1 Demonic Tutor


If you get Ironworks + Clamps + Chambers, you win. And in testing it hasn't been as hard to get that as you would think. As far as disruption is concerned, I think Cabal Therapy has alot of synergy here. Any other thoughts?

[Thug]

I think there should be made a clear differnce between aggro-affinity, and skullclamp-ironworks combo. Since you will come down to those two archetypes if you work out every list.

There little reason making a hybrid since it weakens both components and does not dodge certain hosers.

If you're looking for an aggro-affinity deck, there's no doubt Cranial Plating should be included. It turns most hands into third turn kills. And for builds with the Plate, Ornithopter is Amazing.

I've never really liked Disciple in the Type 1 version, and Plate made it even worse, you don't want to lose your artifacts. And black offers very little other than Disciple so I decided to cut the black from the deck.

Sorry for posting yet another list, but heres my current affinity build.

Lands: (12)
4 Seat Of The Seanod
4 Great Furnace
3 Glimmervoid
1 Tolarian Academy

Artifact Mana: (11)
7 Solomox
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
2 Chromatic Sphere

Beaters: (15)
4 Ornithopter
3 Arcbound Worker
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Frogmite

Utilty: (13)
4 Goblin Welder
4 Schrapnel Blast
4 Cranial Plate
1 Time Walk

Draw: (9)
4 Thoughtcast
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Skullclamp

Schrapnel Blast functions as a speedbumb when you need it. But also kills almost every creatures (including Exalted Angels). It's soo much better than Disciple. Welder adds some more real threats to the deck, making the control matchup better, and it makes sure you will have that Plate in play when you need it.

Another thing I tried is making a build with Thoughtcasts, Serum Visions and Force of Wills. But it didn't really work out, and it just takes away too much of the deck's nature.

Myr Enforcers are nice, but too slow. When you're casting them, you are often better of using Plate or Clamp. They could be moved to the sideboard though, to help against aggro-control.

I think this is pretty much as optimal as affinity can get, the deck is capable of beating a lot of decks, but also has some heavy weaknesses. This makes it a metagame deck, that only should be played in some environments IMO.

-----------

Ironworks combo is an pretty unexplored archetype.

Here my personal take:

Lands: (11)
4 Mishra's Workshop
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Ancient Tomb
3 City Of Brass
2 Glimmervoid

Artifact Mana: (20)
7 Solomox
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
4 Metalworker
4 Ironworks
2 Chromatic Sphere

Draw: (8)
4 Skullclamp
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Timetwister
1 Wheel Of Fortune
1 Memory Jar

Utilty: (14)
1 Tinker
4 Goblin Welder
1 Time Walk
1 Demonic Tutur
1 Fastbond
2 Steelshapers Gift
1 Yawgmoth's Will
3 Genesis Chamber

Suicidal Army: (8)
2 Ornithopter
4 Myr Retriever
1 Arcbound Ravager
1 Triskelion

The problem with a deck like this is that is has to compete with decks like Belcher and Draw7, and will always be slightly slower than them. The deck might be a little stronger versus control, but is extremely vulnerable to Hosers.

Feel free to comment on the above decklists, I feel that especially the last one isn't optimal yet.

Koen

[Ric_Flair]

A few things.  I have added [card]Cranial Plating[/card] to the deck at Matt's suggestion.  It is REALLY good.  I have also swapped out the Darksteel Citadels in favor of the unaffected by Null Rod Mishra's Workshop.  It is a trade off--increased susceptibility to Wasteland for a slightly reduced vunerability to Null Rod.  Funny thing is, Workshop is not that good.  In fact it is really only useful on the first two turns and after a Wheel.  Other than that...it is not that good.  Honestly.  This is one of the reasons why Workshop cannot restricted; after the first few turns it is just not broken.  

As for the Ironworks version, I am not sure if it is better.  At 4 mana Ironworks is kinda expensive.  Also, I would rather sac artifacts to kill my opponent directly (via Ravager) or to draw cards (via Skullclamp).  I will try it out though.

My personal opinion is that Welder is too slow and not very effective in a deck where there are few uber expensive and/or uber broken artifacts.  Other than a Ravager, what is an effective card to Weld?  Any thoughts....Welder is SO POWERFUL (Second best creature in Magic), but I just don't think it works in this deck.

[jpmeyer]

Koen, what's the kill in your Ironworks deck?  I didn't see any copies of Disciple.

[Ric_Flair]

Triskelion, Retriever, or Arcbound Ravager usually serve as back up kill for Genesis Chamber when I saw this deck in Standard.  I would think that a Goblin Cannon finish would be the ideal kill in an Ironworks deck.

[Thug]

JP,

I found Disciples took up too much colored resources, so my kill is Ravager + Trisk.

The way this works out is that at some point you have Chamber, Ironworks, Retriever and Skullclamp in play and a Retriever in your graveyard.

At that point you have acces to unlimited tokens (retrieve your retriever and get 1/1's with chamber). That equals infinitive mana, and that equals infinitve card with Skullclamp. Then you draw your Ravager and Trike, or recur one with Retriever if needed and play them. Sac infinitive tokens to the Ravager and sac the Ravager to itself for infinitive counters on Trike, et voila, infinitive damage.

Have I just written infinitive infinitive times?  

Koen

EDIT:

My personal opinion is that Welder is too slow and not very effective in a deck where there are few uber expensive and/or uber broken artifacts. Other than a Ravager, what is an effective card to Weld? Any thoughts....Welder is SO POWERFUL (Second best creature in Magic), but I just don't think it works in this deck.

Plate is clearly your number one target too weld back in. But with Clamp and Ravager in the deck too, and with the knowledge that you need creatures (and that welder can recur them) versus Null Rod I think it does warrant it's spot.

[rozetta]

@Thug:

The Ironworks combo deck looks very interesting! I haven't had chance to try it out, but wondered off the top of my head, if you had considered Gilded Lotus? You can obviously make a lot of mana between Workshop, Ironworks and Metalworker, but the Gilded Lotus would provide you with a filter for that mana (perhaps in place of Chromatic Sphere). If you think about it, with the Ironworks in play, the Gilded Lotus will net 0 mana, (5 to cast, tap for 3, sac for 2), but it gives you all important coloured mana when needed (an can be brought back with Welder or Yawgmoth's Will). I don't know if this throws off the deck's curve too much, but I thought I'd suggest it, since when I was playing around with Ironworks, Gilded Lotus seemed rather excellent.

[Thug]

Gilded Lotus doesn't really fit the curve, Metalworker is just on the Edge.
But a first turn Metalworker often means an explosion on turn two (and a win). And later in the game it can be used as Skullclamp Fodder.

Btw, the strategy behind the deck is too go for Skullclamp drawing a.s.a.p. The draw-sevens are mainly there for backup, and often they are not really needed. Same thing counts for the welders.

And I was a little short in my explenation about Ravager + Trike over Disciples. Other reasons included that they are artifacts, meaning they will power Metalworker, and can be recurred with Retrievers.
And they are more useful when you aren't going for the kill yet (saccing artifacts if your lacking an ironworks, or shooting welders, shamans etc). And both of the card are very decent when combined with Skullclamp.

If you tried out the deck I would be interested in your thoughts on it.

Koen

[jpmeyer]

Welder is actually pretty strong against Null Rod decks by letting you mess up combat.  You attack with your guys, they block them, and then after damage is on the stack you say, swap your Arcbound Worker that is going to die for a random Mox or something in your graveyard and then put the Worker's counter on say a Frogmite, which now lives.  Then next turn, you turn that Mox that you can't use back into the Worker.  That sort of thing.

[mrieff]

An Affinity version without disruption is very aggro focused. It should definitely run Cranial Plate, as its primary route to victory is a quick Kill.
In such a version, i've never liked the Welders too much; You want to kill as soon as possible. Also, you dont have any "natural" Welder targets, such as Trike.

Thug: I do like the Ironworks Deck! Although I suspect that the Kill mechanism can be upgraded, as you're using several single-purpose cards.
Ever considered Myr Incubator? Using that as your primary Kill condition should save you a lot of slots.
Also consider Mindless Automaton. Card-Drawing and a sizeable threat in 1 package!

[Thug]

An Affinity version without disruption is very aggro focused. It should definitely run Cranial Plate, as its primary route to victory is a quick Kill.
In such a version, i've never liked the Welders too much; You want to kill as soon as possible. Also, you dont have any "natural" Welder targets, such as Trike.

The welders could be in the sideboard, but they don't really slow down the deck. I like them maindeck since they allow you to play through Force of Will with plate, which is by far the most dangerous card in this deck, and there I feel the deck should be build around it (to a certain extend off course)

Anything with Modular seems like a Natural Welder target to me btw. And changing lands and moxes into creatures sure helps in some matchup as JP already said.

Thug: I do like the Ironworks Deck! Although I suspect that the Kill mechanism can be upgraded, as you're using several single-purpose cards.
Ever considered Myr Incubator? Using that as your primary Kill condition should save you a lot of slots.
Also consider Mindless Automaton. Card-Drawing and a sizeable threat in 1 package!

Thanks,

I'm not really using single purpose cards, what do you mean? If I would be running disciples as the kill I would be, but Ravager and Trike have many other uses as explained. And they are expendable since you can recur them later on. Retriever is a card I would also run If it wasn't needed for the kill, it's just amazing. So I don't really see any single-purpose card.

Myr Incubator however, is clearly single-purposed, and at 12 mana for an activation I doubt it will see activation outside of comboing.

Mindless Automaton could be very cute if the deck relied more on Ravager, but you plan on saccing all your artifacts to Ironworks, so there are very little counters to distribute.

---

Btw I'm not 100% sure on the Will, when testing the deck it betrayed me too often, and fastbond was another card that isn't always that great. Maybe one of these two should be another 0cc creatures. Either Thopter or Shield Sphere (I used to have those in there).

Koen

[mrieff]

The welders could be in the sideboard, but they don't really slow down the deck. I like them maindeck since they allow you to play through Force of Will with plate, which is by far the most dangerous card in this deck, and there I feel the deck should be build around it (to a certain extend off course)

Anything with Modular seems like a Natural Welder target to me btw. And changing lands and moxes into creatures sure helps in some matchup as JP already said.

They make a lot of sense in the SB. Of course they are really strong against Stax, Mud, Slavery  etc.
I also see your point in playing them main. Theoretically they seem to fit very well, only my practical experience have been otherwise.
Perhaps that can be partly explained by the difficulty that I had with casting them, as I had colored mana issues with artifact lands. (explaing my reason to switch to mono-brown)

I'm not really using single purpose cards, what do you mean? If I would be running disciples as the kill I would be, but Ravager and Trike have many other uses as explained. And they are expendable since you can recur them later on. Retriever is a card I would also run If it wasn't needed for the kill, it's just amazing. So I don't really see any single-purpose card.

Myr Incubator however, is clearly single-purposed, and at 12 mana for an activation I doubt it will see activation outside of comboing.

Mindless Automaton could be very cute if the deck relied more on Ravager, but you plan on saccing all your artifacts to Ironworks, so there are very little counters to distribute.

Sorry for not being more clear.
I guess I'm suggesting that I'm not sure the Ravager part of the deck (ornithopter, genesis champer, steelshapers gift) is doing enough for the amount of slots they require. Perhaps this deck is better of as a regular combo deck.

Retriever/Skullclamp is nice.
Some out-of-the-box thinking:

Trinket Mage (Myr Servitor or Clamp)
Myr Servitor
Intuition (get multiple Myr Retrievers to loop with Clamp, or Servitors)
Skullclamp
My Retriever

Most likely not viable, although they would open possibilities to include Fow and Power Blue, replacing some other colored cards. (Will and Fastbond, as you said)

[Thug]

Sorry for not being more clear.
I guess I'm suggesting that I'm not sure the Ravager part of the deck (ornithopter, genesis champer, steelshapers gift) is doing enough for the amount of slots they require. Perhaps this deck is better of as a regular combo deck.

Retriever/Skullclamp is nice.
Some out-of-the-box thinking:

Trinket Mage (Myr Servitor or Clamp)
Myr Servitor
Intuition (get multiple Myr Retrievers to loop with Clamp, or Servitors)
Skullclamp
My Retriever

Most likely not viable, although they would open possibilities to include Fow and Power Blue, replacing some other colored cards. (Will and Fastbond, as you said)

Genesis Chamber is one of the key cards in the deck, and also one of the best. It makes sure you won't run out of clamp fodder, als also is part of the kill. I think it belongs in every version of an Ironworks/Skullclamp deck, and I actually start to wonder why I don't run 4  :(guess the deck is too tight eh...)

Ornithopter is by far the cheapest option for the much needed extra creatures spot. With just welders, workers, retriever and the single ravager and trike you will notice you run out of gas sometimes, hence some other creatures need to be in the deck. Ornithopter is used over Shield Sphere because it can be killed with double clamp, and in theory could fly in for the kill when combined with Ravager.

Gift is once again the cheapeast card for its function. You could switch them to Vampric/Enlightened. But then you should wonder if the loss of a turn is really worth being able to grab lotus/draw-seven/acestral etc.

I'm sorry if I sound very rude, but cards of this list:

Trinket Mage (Myr Servitor or Clamp)
Myr Servitor
Intuition (get multiple Myr Retrievers to loop with Clamp, or Servitors)

will only slow down the deck. Intuition and Mage are way to costy at 2U, and Myr Servitor costs mana and doesn't even have more than 1 toughness so that you can sack it too Ironworks. The ability is of little impact since you plan on winning in one turn anyway.

I think one of the main strength is the perfect interaction of the cards in the deck. I would like you to give the deck some test runs and see to what conclusion you come then.

Koen

[Nameless]

This is the Aggro deck of choice we use for testing around my area...  I designed it the way it is because this build is perfect.  There's nothing fancy about it, not really any cute tricks or anything, it just does 1 thing, and it tries to do this as fast as possible.

The important aspect of this build is one key word:  Consistancy.

Yes, the deck rolls over and dies to Null Rod, but who cares.  Considering the nature of this thread, I thought I'd throw this out there.

19 Mana Sources
1 Black Lotus
3 City of Brass
3 Glimmervoid
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
4 Seat of the Synod
1 Sol Ring
1 Tolarian Academy

24 Artifacts
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Arcbound Worker
4 Frogmite
4 Myr Enforcer
4 Ornithopter
4 Skullclamp

6 Black
1 Demonic Tutor
4 Disciple of the Vault
1 Yawgmoth's Will

6 Blue
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Thoughtcast
1 Time Walk

5 Red
1 Burning Wish
4 Shrapnel Blast

SB
4 Artifact Mutation
4 Duress
1 Regrowth
1 Tendril's of Agony
4 Tormod's Crypt
1 Vindicate

[ELD]

I play against an affinity deck all the time.  One card pushes it past everything I've seen online.  Cursed Scroll.

[Matt]

Well now! Cursed Scroll does seem like a really good fit, but I have my reservations, as it doesn't really give an answer to Null Rod. That said, I can see where it would be GOLDEN in every matchup besides Null Rod, so I will definitely add a couple somewhere in my deck.

[Grand Inquisitor]

I'm not trying to be smug here, but what does scroll let affinity do better?  It has other tools to do direct damage to opponents, and killing small creatures shouldn't be an issue since all of yours are bigger or can fly.  The big creatures in the format you might worry about (angel, dryad, tog, art fat) aren't affected.

The only really good target I can think of here is gorilla shaman and maybe goblin welder.  What am I missing here?

[ELD]

Grand Inquisitor, do you play affinity?  Gorilla shaman and goblin welder are often game over.  Your mana base is destroyed by the shaman.  This buys enough time for him to start eating clamps too.  From there it's over.  Goblin welder makes you life hell.  He switches out attackers for dead things and buys tons of time as well.  Anytime a control deck can buy enough time, they will win the game against affinity.  

Dryad is not to much of a threat to a good affinity build.  It's way to small to matter and affinity can out tempo GAT easily.  If it were a problem though, dryad is hard pressed to find room to grow against a cursed scroll.  

Cursed Scroll is much better because has to be handled first turn.  Shrapnel blast and player kill cards don't win for a many reasons.  If you are casting it just to damage your opponent, they often don't matter.  Unless you have a team that's applying serious pressure, it's really card disadvantage.  If you are casting them to kill an opponent, it's late enough in the game that they can counter it.  Cursed Scroll can win a game all by itself.  Cursed Scroll is sick in multiples too.

[Nameless]

Why even bother with it?  3 mana?  Why in the hell are you spending 3 mana on a Cursed Scroll activation?  If you haven't won the game by the time you get around to doing this then you're going to loose.

Vintage Affinity is quick and deadly, but not as fast as combo, and easily raped by Fish, which is already good against tons of other decks, so it's being played anyway.

I posted my own Affinity list to show some sort of pattern that has formed as far as what core cards people are using, and how they try and trick things out a little, but the bottom line really is that the deck already has so many bad matchups that it's doomed to failure, barring a complete shock where nobody is playing Fish or Welder/Workshop decks, or anything like that...

[Matt]

I think everyone is getting scared by Null Rod into writing affinity off as dead. There's more than one way to build an affinity deck, including versions that don't scoop to Rod.

This reminds me a lot of the history of Madness. After LED went and got itself restricted, a lot of people were trying to make a "control madness" deck, but weren't willing to give up their Bazaars, and their efforts were horrible, using trash like Squees and Intuitions. JP didn't think that way, dropped the Bazaars, and won a tournament with the results.

If Null Rod and Goblin Welder are killing you, stop playing cards that lose to Null Rod and Goblin Welder.

[jpmeyer]

I'm not trying to be smug here, but what does scroll let affinity do better?  It has other tools to do direct damage to opponents, and killing small creatures shouldn't be an issue since all of yours are bigger or can fly.  The big creatures in the format you might worry about (angel, dryad, tog, art fat) aren't affected.

The only really good target I can think of here is gorilla shaman and maybe goblin welder.  What am I missing here?

Similarly, if you want to do damage, why not run Cranial Plating?

If Null Rod and Goblin Welder are killing you, stop playing cards that lose to Null Rod and Goblin Welder.

The question then becomes "Does this deck still work fast enough without using artifact lands?"  That's one for testing to answer.  Oh, and since Goblin Welder is a pain, the best answer is actually probably Welders of your own since they'll at least always be useful, unlike something like say, Vendetta.

[Matt]

Oh, and since Goblin Welder is a pain, the best answer is actually probably Welders of your own since they'll at least always be useful, unlike something like say, Vendetta.

I think the best answer to Goblin Welder is not running Arcbound Ravagers, thereby not putting artifacts in your graveyard.  It does require significant retooling of the deck, though. Of course, Welder does more than just mess up your stuff, so some answer may still be needed. Cursed Scroll is a good choice for that answer, since Welder decks are extremely unlikely to be running Null Rod, and the Scroll is generally useful.