[Deck discussion] Returning to previous Gay/R builds

[barrin]

First of all I have to excuse myself for my poor english, i hope than it will be enough clear and that discussing with you would improve it.
Here in Italy an high competitive tournament metagame is developing, together with realy good palyers, as Gencon results shows.
A lot of different full powered decks fights everey sunday; but in this tournament there are also a lot of unpowered decks that tend to establish a metagame in which more or less 40% decks are aggro, 40% are control 20% combo.
The most common archetypes are HS 4CC Goblin Sligh, Fish, Madness (RG, URG), Zoo, TPS Dragon, WS Prison decks, and from last tournaments, also Affinity and WS Slaver.
It's a very fast metagame.

I have alway been a fish player since gay fish was a merfolk based build and alway tried to fit this deck to my metagame with various splash and finally I obviuovsly merged to a quite common gay/r list. Some cards are personal choiches as always in this deck.
Now I was thinking to return to a merfolk build because I bielieve that it has a faster clock. The need for red for removal implies a red splash making possibly the use of pretty razorfin hunter.

This is the list i was thinking at

4 manta riders
4 cloud of faeries
4 razorfin hunter
3 lord of atlantis
4 standstill
4 curiosity
1 ancestral recall
1 time walk
2 fire/ice
4 fow
3 daze
3 stifle
3 null rod
1 mox sapphire
4 mishra's factory
4 blue fetchlands
4 volcanic island
4 island
1 strip mine
4 wasteland.

Comments
Good things
This deck has a faster clock;thanks to lord and merfolks. The use of razorfin hunters implies to be less intesive on red mana sources, and this to fact helps a lot also in the mirror match which is now quite possibily in a tournament.
It's also very good against control which with 4CC is spreading here.
Morevover f/i gives istant removal vs noisy creatures, expecially goblin welder and is never completely useless. (you can alway cylce it).
Denial base is quite good even if i'm wondering if misdirection would be good. ( in some matchups it's completely unuseful).

Bad ones
Lack of spiketail hatchling to complete mana denial.
Lack of grim lavamancer which sometimes it far more better than razorfin hunter.
Sometimes having the need for double specific casting cost may be a problem: and this is a problem which involves 7 critters.

Firts matches have been pretty good.
I was just wondering if it's correct going in this direction together with the denial base supposed by gay/r or if I just have to establish winning condition as in old fish builds which used to be less intesive on mana denial.
This fact for example would men cutting some dazes and stifle for a lot o cool stuff like disrupt, more creatures, merchant scroll. all cards that was played once in gay fish (with merfolks).

In the end my actual sideboard for this deck
3 beb
3 reb
3 sigil of sleep
3 tormod crypt
2 rack and ruin
1 hurky'll's recall.

I'd like to hear some thought about this deck expecially on what concern mana denial strategy and its concequences in the deckilist.

[orgcandman]

The problem is it takes too long to get the LoA and enough merfolk active to make it a worthwhile creature base to run. Manta Riders was replaced by flying men, as the evasion is static and you don't need to tap down resources to get a flyer. Razorfin Hunter is used as a supplement to Grim Lavamancer, which is one of the largest reasons to run red.
I don't see Lord of Atlantis providing a boost to enough creatures to make it worthwhile to run. You run only 8 merfolk, meaning your Lord won't ever pump more than 2 creatures at a time, and as a fire/ice hits it quite readily, you're back to having 1/1's. The only difference is that this deck is built around Lord pumping creatures, whereas the other deck is built around utility creatures.
I think the whole reason lord was dropped from fish was because it was too narrow a creature, and wasn't fast enough for the format.

[barrin]

That's partially true, but this deck is far more faster than gay/r and pumping 2 merfolks implies having dubled p/t of your creatures.
Moreover you get the chance to win against some decks also in bad situations like angainst a roar of the wurm or an atog. the moerfolk number in the same gay fish always used, I only replaced the too slow Thief with Razorfin Hunter.
My really urgent question is: is correct going in mana denial direction with LoAt pumping philosophy?

[WildWillieWonderboy]

If I understand your question correctly, yes mana denial and LoA is a good combination. However, your deck is lighter on mana denial than normal because of the absence of spiketail and gorilla shaman, so this route isn't necessarily viable anymore.
The philosophy of this gay deck is to maintain a tempo advantage over your opponent: beating him down with bad creatures is something that just happens when you are winning, it isn't something that causes winning. Just try matching up Faeries vs. Exalted Angel and you see what I mean.
I would advise very much against the use of merfolk beats over utility cards, simply because the merfolk plan forces you to play with really bad cards. Not the cards that are normally bad but are good in Fish, but just horribly wretched cards.

[Master]

I know that merfolk maybe a slightly faster clock (assuming you always draw and cast lord of atlantis). otherwise, manta riders doesn't even have evasion making it a piss poor curiosity target.

You make too many trade offs. grim lavamancer is incredible against aggro. It can take down many weenies by itself. Spiketail Hatchling can often counter one of their bigger threats or if not slows down their play by a full turn.

If you want to improve your aggro matchup some more. If you want a faster clock in fish. Splash in green and play 4 quirion dryad in place of the lord. Play lavamancer in place fo the manta riders.

If you have concerns about the mana base, use the one found here... http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=18179

It runs very smoothly.

[wuaffiliate]

manta riders DOES have evasion, notice the U: ~this~ gains flying?

stop spaming your useless dryad crap list. dryad is BAD in a deck that is not based arround it. its a weak threat for way too long in his deck. GAT can abuse dryad, it casts alot of spells in little time because it is a one sided tempo based deck.

gayr is NOT the same type of tempo, gayr uses minimal tempo on its side of the board, but uses massive tempo to mess with the opponent's game. dryad  does not fit that mold. standstill is a direct anti-synergy with dryad, and the deck is BASED on standstill, thats just bad deck building.

[barrin]

I completely agree with wuaffiliate. Moreover I actually don't bielive that a 3rd color splash is what fish needs.
I was thinking cutting 1 daz e 1 stifle for 2 coral fighters. They' r not evasive at all but I think they can win games ad has the perfetc cc.

The problem with stifle is that sometimes you have to decide wether to play manta rider or just save your mana to stifle your opponent fetch and maybe sometimes losing tempo.

LoA by me it's a good card because has iimediately effect in play and without merfolk is still a decent blocker.

[wuaffiliate]

i have come to use Daze because it is a necessary evil, its a crappy card but it works so well in this deck.

my daze/stifle count is 2 daze, 2 stifle now instead of my usual 4 stifle.

[WildWillieWonderboy]

That's why manta riders aren't very good, take them out for spiketails and you'll have flyers, mana denial and stifle mana. The ability to cast stifle consistently is  key for gay/r because the deck is all about disrupting your opponent and it's the universal "fuck you" card. The absolute last thing this deck needs is more sub-par beats.

[Gilberry]

I agree about the spiketails. They are far more useful than manta riders for combat, can be used as a counterspell and make daze slightly more useful in the late game (although you do loose card advantage when using the two together).

I face a very similar meta here in southern Illinois (except for the absence of zoo and the presence of old oath decks). My solution to aggro is throwing in 2 razorfins, into gay red fish. With the lavamancers they can take out any weenies. I'm also experimenting with a u/w fish deck that uses swords and meddling mages.

[whitepanther]

While Manta Riders can be of use in certain meta's I would have to disagree with Wu and barrin. The continual cost of paying :U: is too much. Spiketail's would be far better in their place as would Grim Lavamancer be a welcome addition to the deck. On the other hand, the splash of green is completely useless and despite what many people think, having played games with Dryad in the deck, it IS ANTI-SYNERGY with Standstill, it also does not grow very fast making it a useless chump-blocker.

[wuaffiliate]

i didnt advocate manta riders dean i posted the following.

manta riders DOES have evasion, notice the U: ~this~ gains flying?

[whitepanther]

While then I appologiza Al, but it appeared in the context of the thread that by stating that they can gain evasion, you were advocating their use. Either way, they're still too slow!

[wuaffiliate]

ahh thats where i dissagree my tall red headed friend.

running the manta riders means he will run Lords, that means his deck should be have a faster clock like back in the day of mono-u fish.

 

i do agree that riders are pointless, people can just play flying men.

[orgcandman]

The fundamental problem with using Lord and merfolk beats is that you end up trading the deck's strongest advantage in the format, massive tempo disruption, to turn a 2/2 sideways. As has been mentioned before, and remains true, 20 life is simply too high a barrier for aggro to survive. Although fish is considered Aggro-Control, it's gameplan is more control in the form of tempo disruption than it is aggro. By the time you MIGHT have your opponent in the red zone, combo will be going off and control will have swung the game. At that point, Lord twiddles his fins right before he's taken out and your mighty army crumbles.

[HuntedWumpus]

I would suggest using to search function to find some Gay/r decks. I think you'll find that nearly all your match's will improve. However If speed is what your worry you might consider Wtf/r found below.

http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=17893

If you read further into the post you will see major discussion about the two open creature slots. I like the Call of the Herd myself but its all upto you.

[barrin]

Thanks for all replies. I can think from your posts that no one shares my idea, so there's no reason to keep this topic going on, and letting people just say: play flying men.
To moderators. can be closed

[Raven Fire]

As others have posted, Gay/R is all about the disruption with faerie beatdownz and not about speed.  If you want to play a faster and more aggressive aggro-control deck, try JP's U/G Madness.  It's got flying Wurms to go along with the FoWs, Null Rods, and Strips.