Questions on accidental mistakes in tournies

[Mixing Mike]

What's the official call on dropping a card by accident?  Is it up to the judge, or is there one official call for it?

Also, I forget what happens when somebody forgets to de-sideboard.  Does game 2 start with no sideboards?

[Jebus]

What exactly do you mean by dropping a card?

From their hand?  From their library?

You normally only start game two with no sideboards if a penalty caused a game loss before game one started.

[firebird365]

He is referring to this post, in which the player in question dropped his cards on purpose to influence his opponent. I guess the question is, what happens if the player actually drops his cards by accident?

[Jebus]

He should be more careful.

There's nothing preventing you from revealing your hand to your opponent, and I'd have to say that this falls under this.

[kl0wn]

There's nothing preventing you from revealing your hand to your opponent, and I'd have to say that this falls under this.

Didn't JOrlove say that showing your hand to your opponent in any way was illegal though?

Inquiring minds would like to know, as I too have employed the "expose your hand" trick on occasion.

[Jebus]

Didn't JOrlove say that showing your hand to your opponent in any way was illegal though?

Inquiring minds would like to know, as I too have employed the "expose your hand" trick on occasion.

He did say that.  However, he is incorrect.

From the Universal Tournament Rules...

33.   Card Elevation
Players must keep their cards above the level of the playing surface at all times, including during sideboarding. Revealing your hand to your opponent is not considered to be a violation of the DCI Universal Tournament Rules.

However, I personally discourage this type of play, as I feel it can be unsporting, and I may give a penalty for that if I feel it is needed.

Of course, that's a case by case sort of thing there.

[dandan]

I have seen people flashing Counterspells as a way of speeding up games (and indeed offering - 'Show me 2 counters and I'll concede'). I can't see how showing your hand can be considered cheating in any way as it gives an advantage to all but the most stupid of opponents.

[Upinthe]

What about Liar's Pendulum? If I activate it, name a card, and "accidentally" drop my only card in hand on the table before the target opponent can guess, and he sees it and guesses, can I claim that I never chose to reveal it since I "revealed" it before he guessed? Or, what If I dropped it before I named anything?


Oracle Text:

2, T: Name a card. Target opponent guesses whether a card with that name is in your hand. You may reveal your hand. If you do and your opponent guessed wrong, draw a card.

[Jebus]

What about Liar's Pendulum? If I activate it, name a card, and "accidentally" drop my only card in hand on the table before the target opponent can guess, and he sees it and guesses, can I claim that I never chose to reveal it since I "revealed" it before he guessed? Or, what If I dropped it before I named anything?


Oracle Text:

2, T: Name a card. Target opponent guesses whether a card with that name is in your hand. You may reveal your hand. If you do and your opponent guessed wrong, draw a card.

I'd depends on the demenor of the offending player.

The way you describe this, it sounds like you are trying to cheat.

[johnstown713]

I think revealing your hand is ok to some extent.  I watched this one guy where it depended on Player A playing a card to win the game.  Player A told Player B if he had a counter he would concede.  Player B showed a Force of Will while he was tapped out and Player a conceded.  It turned out that Player B didn't have a blue card to force with.  Mind tricks definetley are hard to judge.

Johnstown713

[Toad]

Sometimes, "accidentally" revealing cards to the opponent is an awesome mind trick. A friend once told me he was playing his Modular deck with 1 Mana Leak only inside, but was always dropping it while shuffling his deck before Game 1. This had a strong psychological impact on the opponent, especially if he was using Wrath of God and Akroma's Vengeance. This can be done too in Type One if you are playing a deck with 1 Daze or 1 Stifle inside only.

Showing his hand or cards to an opponent is not forbidden by the rules. But, as Jebus said, this can be considered as unsporting conduct under some circumstances and the player should be issued a Warning.

[Trollstorm]

A similar accidental mistake in a tourny:

Player 1 is playing themanshow, and player 2 is playing sligh, game one. Trinisphere is on board, and player 2 (tapped out) sacrifices two land to Fireblast for the 'game'. Both players agree that "that's game." and go onto game two. before game two, player 1 calls a judge over to ask what happens.

what's the correct call?

[Purple Hat]

If they've already picked up their cards the correct call is that player 1 scooped.  

Its similar to what happend in round 8 at SCG.  A MUD player saw his opponent show a Collossus and start shuffling his deck but didn't realize he meant that the Collossus needed to be shuffled back in.  The opponent didn't have many perminants in play and the MUD player thought he was scooping because he didn't see the guys land so he picked up his deck and started shuffling.  The judges decided that the MUD player had scooped.

[JSexton]

A similar accidental mistake in a tourny:

Player 1 is playing themanshow, and player 2 is playing sligh, game one. Trinisphere is on board, and player 2 (tapped out) sacrifices two land to Fireblast for the 'game'. Both players agree that "that's game." and go onto game two. before game two, player 1 calls a judge over to ask what happens.

what's the correct call?

I'd give the win to Player 2, as Player 1 essentially conceded. However, Fireblast could not have been legally played with the 3sphere out. Player 2 is also getting Cautioned or Warned for Misrepresentation, depending on REL level.

This is different, to me, than the same situation with, say, a Chalice instead of Sphere. With Chalice, the spell can be legally played, it would just be countered later. With Sphere, it couldn't even go on the stack. Key difference, in my mind.

--
Justin

[Jebus]

If they've already picked up their cards the correct call is that player 1 scooped.  

Its similar to what happend in round 8 at SCG.  A MUD player saw his opponent show a Collossus and start shuffling his deck but didn't realize he meant that the Collossus needed to be shuffled back in.  The opponent didn't have many perminants in play and the MUD player thought he was scooping because he didn't see the guys land so he picked up his deck and started shuffling.  The judges decided that the MUD player had scooped.

I really felt bad about giving a game loss to the guy, but that's all that I could do.

A similar accidental mistake in a tourny:

Player 1 is playing themanshow, and player 2 is playing sligh, game one. Trinisphere is on board, and player 2 (tapped out) sacrifices two land to Fireblast for the 'game'. Both players agree that "that's game." and go onto game two. before game two, player 1 calls a judge over to ask what happens.

what's the correct call?

This is a tough one, and I don't really feal comfortable answering it here, as there are far too many variables that are unknown that can only be taken into account in person.

A major issue is determing if Player 2 intentinally misrepresented the game state to gain an advantage.

[Trollstorm]

I know both players and it was an honest mistake. The game went to player 2 because games aren't about "what would have happened", they're about "what did happen".


I wouldn't have a problem with such a ruling, but it was in the finals for an alpha mox. I did not want to make any such ruling.

[Toad]

On the Fireblast issue, the ruling I'd issue would depend on what happened exactly.

* Case 1 : the TMS player moves his life counter on "0". I'm issuing a Game Loss to the Sligh player for Procedural Error - Severe (unintentional extremely disruptive action).

* Case 2 : the TMS player did not indicate he was going down to 0 life on his life counter. I would consider this as a concession and give the game to the Sligh player without any kind of penalty.

Note that this already happened in a tourney I judged. Player A shows a Shrapnel Blast to player B, who is at 5 life,  without tapping mana or saying something. Player B shuffles his cards into his library, then notices player A has no artifact on the board. The game has been given to player A since the judge staff considered player B had scooped. Remember It is not forbidden to show cards to the opponent. Player A didnt misrepresent the game state, he just bluffed the Shrapnel Blast.

[TracerBullet]

But if he declared it, even without paying the mana, I would have to give the gameloss to the Fireblast/Shrapnel Blast player.  Any way you slice it, he gained an unfair advantage by misrepresenting his play, and put the game into an irreparable state.

[brianb]

Tough call, but I think you have to let the sligh player have the win (with a warning, of course, and provided you don't believe it was intentional).  Accidental misrepresentations happen all the time.  Usually they are immediately caught and corrected, and it's no harm, no foul.  Occasionally they are going to slip through and make the difference in a game.  Both players are responsible for making sure the game is played correctly.  Automatically awarding a game loss for misrepresentation is just going to encourage the other player to let the mistake pass and try to cheese into a game win.  At one of the recent socal tourneys, I was involved in two game-turning misrepresentations.  In one, I forgot to take mana crypt damage against stompy.  In another, my oppenent stifled my black lotus, thereby ending a big yawgwin turn.  You win some; you lose some; you try to play more carefully next time. --BRIAN