[Deck]Salvagers 2.0: Now featuring 40% more card drawing.

[AngryPheldagrif]

It has come to my attention that some members were surpised at the closing of the other post. This is not a result of a rules violation, I had posted "Mods please close this thread." The old one was going nowhere, and a pseudo-flamewar was consuming most of the content. For some reason, Matt decided to delete my post (where I asked to have it closed) and then close it.

Taking the suggestions from Bebe, VGB, and a couple others, the deck has been altered to become more synergistic and consistent, rather than 'optimal'. Testingwise, this puts us roughly back to square one. We decided that we'd post this list up for further critique. I'm not going to re-explain every single card choice, but you can reference the original post here.
Disregard the match results and such, though. Without further ado,

Team DD presents: Salvagers 2.0:
        1 Pyrite Spellbomb
        3 Trinket Mage
        4 Brainstorm
        1 Ancestral Recall
        3 Intuition
        1 Time Walk
        1 Demonic Tutor
        1 Vampiric Tutor
        4 Accumulated Knowledge
        4 Auriok Salvagers
        3 Cunning Wish
        4 Mana Drain
        2 Duress
        4 Force of Will
        2 Underground Sea
        1 Island
        2 Tundra
        2 Polluted Delta
        4 Flooded Strand
        4 City of Brass
        1 Lion's Eye Diamond
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Sol Ring
        1 Mana Crypt
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Emerald
SB:  1 Fact or Fiction
SB:  2 Engineered Explosives
SB:  1 Blue Elemental Blast
SB:  1 Red Elemental Blast
SB:  1 Rack and Ruin
SB:  1 Misdirection
SB:  1 Hurkyl's Recall
SB:  1 Disenchant
SB:  1 Swords to Plowshares
SB:  1 Stroke of Genius
SB:  1 Entomb
SB:  1 Stifle
SB:  1 Shallow Grave
SB:  1 Coffin Purge

Changes made from last version:
Accumulated Knowledge: Since we're running the Intuitions anyways, these seemed like a natural inclusion. With 4 AKs and 4 Brainstorms, the deck's drawing power is enormous. The synergy of the deck, as well as the draw power, were big concerns before. Accumulated Knowledge gives it a measure of those that make it a ton more consistent.

Time Walk: Since the deck is not as fast as Draw-7 and Belcher, including this is useful.

Sideboarded Vampiric Tutor: The deck packs plenty of Wishes as is, and it's nice as a wish target.

Sideboarded Engineered Explosives: Tech against a lot of stuff. Tutorable by the Trinket Mages and useful in a variety of roles. With full Moxen and Cities, Explosives is useful at almost any level. Fills in a nice removal niche.

No Gamble: It has been brought to my attention that this card is god-awful. While it works fine for the purpose, the interaction with other cards is horrid and these spots are better for other things.

No Draw-7s: More bad synergy. In making this deck better, we're trying to make the whole thing good as opposed to each little piece good.

Extra Intuition and Mage: Intuition's versatility as a tutor or with Accumulated Knowledge is useful, and the axing of the Gambles precludes the extra mage.



What we want from you:
Just a basic critique. Tell us what you think of this build. In all honesty, we're not interested in what you think about Rector decks. Or Tog decks. Hell, we don't even care about ReapLace. What do you think of Salvagers?

Also, we've got boatloads of info about the deck. Any more you guys want just let me know.

To avoid the kind of flames the last post degenerated into, lets try to keep the posts on topic. Remember, we're discussing my deck here. Not any one else's deck. As evidenced by the current list, I do take suggestions into account. Just put some thought into your post. We're trying to make a deck, not destroy it.

Thanks for all your help so far and in the future, guys.
-Dan

PS: Still looking for Apprentice opponents. AIM me @ HunterKiller403 or PM me.

[rvs]

I don't understand having Vamp in the side, even if you have 4 wishes. Since your deck relies so heavily on getting that one-key-card (usually Lotus / Led), I don't get why you wouldn't just maindeck it. It could speed up your kill considerably instead of having to wish for it.

Personally, I'm not so sure about the AK engine, I'd rather try a draw-7 route, but I guess you tested it, and I didn't.

[LotusHead]

Capsize in the sideboard as Wish target. Even with no kill card, this can deal with Platinum Angels when infinite mana is availiable and other unforseen events.

Land: Darksteel Citadel.  Possibly too jank, even for Salvagers, but Trinket Mages can get 'em and they are Mox Monkey proof and Titan proof, Wasteland proof, etc.

Conjurer's Bauble: I know you don't want to hear it, but it IS another win condition akin to Aerial Caravan in Dragon builds,  and graveyard recursion to boot. Or just a new card for 1 mana.

Thanks for continuing the work. Now to get some AK's from my common card connection in Sacramento!

[AngryPheldagrif]

Vampiric Tutor on the board: Bah, this was just a result of bad counting on my part. It'll be back in ASAP.

Draw-7 vs. AK: AKs work very nicely with the Intuitions I'm already using, and the dissynergy between my disruption and Draw-7s in earlier builds was just awful. In most cases, I'd just rather have some random draw or tutor. It might hurt the speed by just a tiny bit, but the boost in consistency is far greater.

Capsize: In case of Platinum Angel or True Believer, I just Cunning Wish for Gamble for Spellbomb, then go infinite and kill whatever's in my way and then my opponent.

Darksteel Citadel: A land that is unfetchable and doesn't provide colored mana, while being susceptible to Null Rod. Definitely no.

Conjuror's Bauble: A big point of the new builds was to drop dead cards and extranious win conditions. Being a random cantrip is completely unsynergistic with the rest of the deck and I've got plenty of win conditions.


Thanks for all the help so far!
-Dan

[bebe]

The deck is an improvement on the orginal build as the cards seem to work together much better. This shows a lot more promise. You have the draw, tutors and protection to set up properly.

on your choice of tutors...
I still do not understand the absence of a Tinker since it gets one of your win conditions. I'm also with Morefling - Vamp seems a main deck choice for combo. Another tutor for consideration would be Merchant Scroll.

sideboard
Your sideboard seems somewhat iffy. I would replace the Vamp ( move it main deck ) with an FoF to start. Coffin Purge is also a good sideboard choice. Seeing as you are playing Drains, does Dismantling Blow deserve a look as well?

[VGB]

on your choice of tutors...
I still do not understand the absence of a Tinker since it gets one of your win conditions. I'm also with Morefling - Vamp seems a main deck choice for combo. Another tutor for consideration would be Merchant Scroll.

Tinker is the same speed as Trinket Mage, which doesn't have the card disadvantage - plus Tinker is more likely to be countered facing control since it can fetch greater obscenities.

Were there better Tinker fetch targets, it would probably be warranted, but it is simply a crappy Trinket Mage in this build.

Intuition is an instant and fetches combo pieces and the win condition for the same cost, btw.

@AngryPheldagrif

What are your experiences testing Yawgmoth's Will?

[carlossb]

Is it black necesary??
There are only 3 cards in the list, Demonic Tutor, and 2 Duress (and 1 Vampiric Tutor, which, as said, is better maindeck).

You´re using black for a little disruption (only 2 Duress), and to tutor (not too much, as you have the Vampiric in the sideboard).

So, why don´t we try to put another colour in the deck (green), or to cut the black completely?
By adding green, we have Living Wish, so that way you have 3 Auriok Salvagers maindeck, and 1 to wish in the sideboard. You could also put another Trinket Mage in the sideboard, and have access to Xantid Swarm.

[VGB]

Is it black necesary??
There are only 3 cards in the list, Demonic Tutor, and 2 Duress (and 1 Vampiric Tutor, which, as said, is better maindeck).

Sha-ZAM.

If you insist on running Black, then Will is a must - I assume black is mainly a holdover from your transformational sideboard?  Otherwise foregoing black in favor of green does indeed seem more viable.

WUG is probably the best configuration, as carlossb has identified.  Every argument made in favor of Living Wish on this thread also seems to apply here.

[AngryPheldagrif]

About Yawgmoth's Will, it's a really good card. I would really like to use it in every damn deck I can. The problem is, there's just nothing to abuse. There's no Dark Rituals, making it merely 'very good' instead of 'broken'. Since you can't use Lotus, however, it goes from 'very good' to just 'good'. The biggest thing, since I can't combo out under it, it goes from 'good' to just 'okay'. The best I've ever gotten from it, and it was cut only after a lot of argument late in testing, was maybe an Ancestral, a Fetch, and a tutor or something. This in turn leaves me tapped out most of the time. Over all, the deck just doesn't need it. It leaves me 100% sitting duck, and I've lost more than one game after it.

As for Black itself, it's not actually a holdover from the board, it's been there all along. And the Negator/Tog thing was less of a transformational board and more of sheer randomness. I know it's minor, but the inclusion of the 3 and soon to be 4 (Vamp Tutor's heading right back to the maindeck) black cards is very nice in upping the overall effeciency by giving me the best tutors available, as well as the Duresses. While I'm only running a pair, Duress is just a great overall card and great for tipping me over in some of the tighter matchs.

As for Green, it just never really worked out. Living Wish+Whatever is a lot of mana, and causing me to split my Wishboard would preclude the use of anything else, such as the Explosives that I like so much. The prospect of effectively running 7 Salvagers doesn't appeal to me simply because I rarely have trouble drawing them with the 4 I have. I just don't think running the 4 Green cards is going to help more than the 4 Black cards I've got now. And I couldn't find anything else green that appealed.

I updated the list to reflect the newest stuff, but I seem to be running 61 cards now. Anyone know what I can trim?

-Dan

PS: As I said in the last thread, there's no reason to Tinker for something instead of just Maging for it and casting it for free. Merchant Scroll only fetches draw, and I rarely have 2 spare mana to blow to find a non-win condition.

[VGB]

I updated the list to reflect the newest stuff, but I seem to be running 61 cards now. Anyone know what I can trim?

In order of most to least cuttable:

Mana Vault
Mana Crypt
Mox Emerald
Mox Ruby

25 Mana sources is a little much for combo/control.

[Jacob Orlove]

Mana Vault is essentially a colorless Dark Ritual--and you didn't want to run Ritual.

Granted, it has some synergy with Trinket Mage, but how often are you going to Trinket Mage for Vault over even Crypt or Mox, much less Lotus or a Spellbomb?

[bebe]

Merchant Scroll is to fetch Time Walk, Ancestral, Cunning Wish and Intuition primarily. I've found it very useful in these types of decks. That said , space is very tight.
Mana Vault is the card to remove of the choices presented.

[goober]

Merchant Scroll is to fetch Time Walk

You can't Merchant Scroll for Time Walk, its a sorcery.

Definitly cut the Vault.

This seems to be evolving closer and closer to Tog.

[AngryPheldagrif]

Mana Vault = cut. Merchant Scroll is good, but I just don't have the space and it slows me down.

The 'turning into 'Tog' thing is a quite legitimate concern, but it's really only in appearance and card choice. It plays like straight combo, only stopping to control when the situation warrants it. I like to go off a bit, then give them a breather. . .and walk them into a Mana Drain. It rarely comes off as awkward as it sounds, instead performing smoothly and with a uniquely brutal efficiency.

I guess you could say it's 'inevitability' in the worst way. It can control, but when it wins, it wins. There's only a few ways to stop it. I've comboed out under Withered Wretch and Planar Void, and even Null Rod and Damping Matrix are survivable.

Thanks for all the help so far!
-Dan

[LotusHead]

Another direction Salvagers.dec could take:

Why not have one each of Aether/Pyrite/Necrogen/Sunbeam Spellbombs in the deck?  That way, all Trinketing could be reserved for Lotus/LED.  If you are going off with Salvager/LED/Lotus, it doesn't matter which spellbomb you have out (or in the yard), you can always draw into Pyrite/Wish. Otherwise, maybe you could use 5 Life, or bounce a creature (Mox Monkey, Tog, etc).

Food for thought.

[Bulls on Parade]

Another direction Salvagers.dec could take:

Why not have one each of Aether/Pyrite/Necrogen/Sunbeam Spellbombs in the deck?  That way, all Trinketing could be reserved for Lotus/LED.  If you are going off with Salvager/LED/Lotus, it doesn't matter which spellbomb you have out (or in the yard), you can always draw into Pyrite/Wish. Otherwise, maybe you could use 5 Life, or bounce a creature (Mox Monkey, Tog, etc).

Food for thought.

Wouldn't it be far better to use 4 Chromatic Sphere and 1 Pyrite Spellbomb? 1 of each Spellbomb is essentially 5 wasted slots, straight up. 4 Sphere and 1 Pyrite gives you 4 good mana fixers/combo enablers and a kill condition that's occasionally usable to disrupt hate aimed at your deck.

[AngryPheldagrif]

RE: Spellbombs:

Because then I'd have to add in 4 dead slots in an already tight deck:-). Also, the other spellbombs have this unfortunate drawback of being crap.

-Dan

[LotusHead]

I was testing/goldfishing with 4 Spellbombs (all but the green one) and the Spellbombs simply turned into new cards.  The idea of using Chromatic Spheres as mana-fixers/combo pieces was what I was looking for.

Edit: Pyrite Spellbomb, if it won't win the game now, is no better than say, Aether Spellbomb.  Each could deal with a creature once.  The point is, as is, the deck needs Pyrite/Wish and Lotus/LED in addition to Salvager to go off. I my testing, Spellbombs/Sphere made oppening off color moxen into more doable hands.

In theory, with a Salvager resolved (yes, the deck always hinges on this one fact), each Spellbomb can either continue to draw cards slowly (say, at end of turn) or do one of it's fun abilities.  Same with Chromatic Sphere.  For the same reason that this deck still includes LED, maybe 1 Pyrite and one Sphere is getting more optimal?

Combo decks need to either go off, or stall for time until going off.  AEther Spellbomb seems to fit in this category. At any rate, all of these cards replace themselves very quickly.

All this is just food for thought/theory.  I haven't had a chance to fully test your new build against actual opponents. (or use an AK/Intuition engine)

Keep up the good work.

[AngryPheldagrif]

Spellbombs/Chromatic Sphere = N+O.

I have no space and no need. I'm running a blue deck that effectively splashes white and black for Salavagers and the tutor, respectively. Other than the un-fixed Wishboard, which works off the CoBs mostly, I have no problems with mana-fixing. I have just enough colorless sources to have no off-color Moxen problems.

It's really tight already, and I'm not prepared to cut useful things for dead cantrips.

-Dan

[mogote]

Have you thought about Brain Freeze in the SB? At least I haven't seen it already mentioned in the thread.

It could be an accesible win-condition via Cunning Wish. It's not good when you play against Stifle but cannot be misdirected or countered opposed to Stroke of Genius.

[LotusHead]

One thing I found out recently (from an article somewhere) is that Engineered Explosive can get around Chalice for 0 by spending a colorless mana for it's casting cost, and Explosives will have 0 charge counters on it.  Then, you have Explosives for 0 ready to go.  

I got screwed once by Chalice for 0, even though I could have Trinketed for Explosives.  It never occured to me how that subtle nuance worked.

This build has very few permanents that cost 1 and I believe zero that cost 2.  All sorts of Fish, Goblins and Dryands cost 1 or 2.  Wouldn't just one Engineered Explosives have a place maindeck for game 1?  It could free up that lucky Brain Freeze slot in the board. Perhaps by cutting a Wish (seeing that oftentimes the Wish may be to get something to blow stuff up anyway.)

Keep up the good work folks.

[AngryPheldagrif]

Have you thought about Brain Freeze in the SB? At least I haven't seen it already mentioned in the thread.

It could be an accesible win-condition via Cunning Wish. It's not good when you play against Stifle but cannot be misdirected or countered opposed to Stroke of Genius.

I only Stroke in rare cases, it's mostly just there in case they Extract my Spellbomb or something random like that. Otherwise I just Wish for Entomb/Gamble/whatever I'm using at the moment and kill them with Spellbomb.

RE Engineered Explosives: I prefer just to Trinket for Lotus and win. I rarely have problems with Chalice. And yeah, it's awesome (post board) to fuck them over with it:-)

Edit:
Well, it seems that an earlier version of the deck has already taken one tournament. Unfortunately, I'm not going to be able to drag this monstrosity to the August 1 Game Universe tournament, so it looks like there won't be many more results anytime soon.

In a bit of testing, I did absolutely smash Fish, though.

-Dan
Double post merged. Next time, use the edit function.
-Jacob

[Mathman07]

@AngryPheldagrif

In a bit of testing, I did absolutely smash Fish, though.

Really?  Null Rod stops your combo.  FoW, Daze, Spiketails and Stifle slow you down.  They play Null Rod.  Uh oh.  Unless you are winning on turn 1 or they don't know how to resolve Null Rod, I don't understand how you are winning against fish.  Standstill also hurts.

The same applies to other decks with Null Rod.

[AngryPheldagrif]

@AngryPheldagrif

In a bit of testing, I did absolutely smash Fish, though.

Really?  Null Rod stops your combo.  FoW, Daze, Spiketails and Stifle slow you down.  They play Null Rod.  Uh oh.  Unless you are winning on turn 1 or they don't know how to resolve Null Rod, I don't understand how you are winning against fish.  Standstill also hurts.

The same applies to other decks with Null Rod.

Welcome to 2 weeks and 1 hell of a thread ago!

Actually this was referring to a single match in which I let him beat me down to under 5 life both games before comboing out. 3 Null Rods were painful, but 3 Cunning Wish for Disenchant helped enormously. Game 1 he dropped it first turn, and I just let him run out of counters on my minor threats before comboing out after a good old EOT Cunning Wish. Second game he made the mistake of mulliganing into a second turn Null Rod in an otherwise mediocre hand. I kept an decent hand that included a pair of Forces and an off color Mox was very handy in holding off his Daze. I won on the third turn with an extra Force ready.

I'm not in any way saying these results are typical, just that I have a psychological edge in this match against anyone not very familiar with my deck. That's why rogue decks are fun.

Oh, and nobody else respond to this please. I'm PMing a mod to close this out-of-date thread.

-Dan