Question about keeper whatever you want to call it

[yugg]

keeper/clinger/4cc whatever

I'm sitting around messing with already great decks (read playtesting with proxies) and trying to build GOOD budget builds of them.

One deck I'm still wondering about it keeper.  Everywhere I look, everyone says that this is the one deck that NEEDS p9 in it.  Ok, so I've played it a bajillion times and I still haven't seen why it so desparetly needs the p9.  Don't automatically dismiss me as not knowing how to play it, I started playing in revised and have watched this deck go through tons of changes throughout the years, even when I had power and built a keeper about 5 years ago, I still couldn't understand why everyone was so obssesed with the idea that keeper needed the p9.

Granted p9 will speed up any deck, but in a deck like keeper which doesn't really rely on speed and combo's to win, I don't see how useful the p9 are.

Ancestral is the only one of the p9 that I see as highly usefull in this deck. Twister is risky because of the amount of fast decks out there that will pause only to sigh when force of willed and then continue to play a million cards a turn.  

Time walk is always good, but again in keeper you're probably only going to get an extra draw out of it.  Not like draw 7, tolarian, long, slaver, etc.  I love power as much as the next person, but I think that the true staple of keeper is mana drain.  Mana drain is the nuts and bolts of this deck which everything revolves around.

1 mana drain can equal the win for you.  1 mox probably won't do anything (and it'll probably be the wrong colour mox at that).

No matter how much I playtest with decks like keeper that have power, I can't help but think that the power is useful only if draw in opening hand and then only useful if drawn in pairs or more.  I mean, 1 mox ruby + a tundra on first turn hardly scares anyone.  At least a ruby, emerald, tundra can cast a twister.  But then that's 3 out of 9 in an opening hand.  That's not the most likely.

Anyway, these are just my observations.  I think that the p9 in keeper are more hype than anything.  Usually I either draw 1 power card or 0 power cards in opening hands and when I do draw them they're usually fairly dead unless it's a twister, or ancestral.  I dunno, but sometimes I feel that a grim monolith + power artifact would be more useful in keeper.  At least those give you infinite mana.

I'm not trying to knock keeper, I love the deck, but in the end the p9 in the deck don't scare me.  P9 in draw7, now that scares me.

[Methuselahn]

you lost me at "trying to build GOOD budget builds"

[Mixing Mike]

http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=15832

Make it stop....

[Komatteru]

I dunno, but sometimes I feel that a grim monolith + power artifact would be more useful in 4cControl. At least those give you infinite mana.

That would be terrible.  Get rid of that opinion.  That's really all there is to say about that.  

Granted p9 will speed up any deck, but in a deck like 4cControl which doesn't really rely on speed and combo's to win, I don't see how useful the p9 are.

Your reason for needing the power is right in there.  4CC is a very slow deck, while many other decks in the format are fast.  4CC really needs that power to keep up with the other decks.

Twister is risky because of the amount of fast decks out there that will pause only to sigh when force of willed and then continue to play a million cards a turn.

Twister is a combo card only now.  It used to be very good in control, when sui black and Necro were good, like back in 1999 or 2000.  It was a nice insult to cast a Twister after getting hit with a bunch of Hymns and stuff.  There's really a reason why Twister is worth so much less than the other power cards.

My 4CC deck runs light on power.  I only have the Ancestral, Sapphire, and Library (working on getting more).  I have trouble in a lot of matchups because of the lack of speed with that.  There are no replacements for the power.  It doesn't work to replace the Walk with Time Warp or Moxen with land or the fake moxen.  My deck is only semi-competitive now because the power is missing.  A budget 4CC deck is ok, but it really needs the power to be the "strongest deck in the format" as it is often.

[Roxas]

Let's build a list of all the applications of power in the deck.  I'll start it off.  (Yes, I understand that we will be doing little more than stating the obvious, but I believe it is necessary here ^_^)

1.  Mana acceleration allows you to:

     -either play Angel more quickly, or cast it with sufficient counter backup.
     -cast bigger Skeletal Scryings
     -have an even more broken Yawgmoth's Will

[yugg]

Mixing mike, that's what I posted this question and not a decklist of what I am thinking a budget would look like.  I just wanted input as to why people think this deck needs p9.

I was mostly kidding about grim monolith + power artifact, but the infinite mana always remains a positive.  Decree of justice and make 500 4/4 flyers is never a bad thing.  Anyway, lets just forget about that now.


JDizzle, you seem to have given the best reason as to why the p9 are in the deck, but I still see the power cards like the moxen as dead draws after opening hand.  After that, they're equivalent to being a plain old mana.  Because keeper is not drawing cards like mad, drawing into a moxen is just about useless.  And in such a fast and furious environment rampant with null rods and such, drawing a mox on turn 4 is highly useless.

I have looked at some recent builds of keeper and I am wondering why orims chant/abeyance are no longer run in keeper.  Especially with isochron sceptre being available to really break cards like orim's and abeyance.  Isochron + chant = opponent can't do anything.

Another big question in my mind, is where on earth did moat go to?  Like you admit, keeper is slow, why no moat?  Moat would shut down most aggro decks, then you only have to worry about countering spells that hit either you or your moat.

One last question for now.  Where did keepers trump card, mirror universe go?  I swear mirror universe was seriously the surprise card of keeper and would always take people by surprise.  I can't tell you how many sui or sligh decks thought they had me dead and then I popped the mirror and won.  Yeah it's slow, but that's the point of it.  You wait until you're almost dead and then play it.

Anyway, I'm sure there are other cards that are more useful in keeper than the majority of the p9, I have a feeling that people just don't want to admit it, let go and allow the keeper to evolve again.

[Kowal]

This thread is terrible.[/color]

[Zherbus]

Mixing mike, that's what I posted this question and not a decklist of what I am thinking a budget would look like.  I just wanted input as to why people think this deck needs p9.

"Think" and "Knowing" are two entirely different things.

JDizzle, you seem to have given the best reason as to why the p9 are in the deck, but I still see the power cards like the moxen as dead draws after opening hand.  After that, they're equivalent to being a plain old mana.  Because 4cControl is not drawing cards like mad, drawing into a moxen is just about useless.  And in such a fast and furious environment rampant with null rods and such, drawing a mox on turn 4 is highly useless.

I'm not sure what version you've played, but the newer 4cC decks draw pretty decently. It seems to me that if you can't grasp why drawing a mox off a FoF, which will give you enough mana to fund a Time Walk into a Yawgmoth's Will the next turn, that you should spend more time reading fundimental articles and remove yourself from the state of denial you're in.

I have looked at some recent builds of 4cControl and I am wondering why orims chant/abeyance are no longer run in 4cControl.  Especially with isochron sceptre being available to really break cards like orim's and abeyance.  Isochron + chant = opponent can't do anything.

Because Scepter isn't potent enough for Type 1 in practice, despite looking fantastic on paper. It's a negative investment at first and if you cannot protect your (2 card) investment, then any sort of removal will result in a 2-for-1. Additionally, trying to protect it slows it down to the point of uselessness in the format.

Another big question in my mind, is where on earth did moat go to?  Like you admit, 4cControl is slow, why no moat?  Moat would shut down most aggro decks, then you only have to worry about countering spells that hit either you or your moat.

Because the cards that actually hurt don't care about Moat. How is a Moat going to stop a Welder? How is a Moat going to swing the favor of a control mirror? Does Moat stop Worldgorger Dragon or Belcher? Aggro is basically dead and even the aggro that's played is too fast for Moat to be of any use.

One last question for now.  Where did keepers trump card, mirror universe go?  I swear mirror universe was seriously the surprise card of 4cControl and would always take people by surprise.  I can't tell you how many sui or sligh decks thought they had me dead and then I popped the mirror and won.  Yeah it's slow, but that's the point of it.  You wait until you're almost dead and then play it.

Have you not played since 5th edition or something? This is 4 color control, not Weissman's 'The Deck'. Strategies that were good before the newest 15 sets were released have little to no relevancy today.

Anyway, I'm sure there are other cards that are more useful in 4cControl than the majority of the p9, I have a feeling that people just don't want to admit it, let go and allow the 4cControl to evolve again.

Actually, 4cControl gets pretty hefty overhauls. This newest incarnation was just developed by a team consisting of Team CAB, Toad, and myself. We're constantly evolving it, but taking out the nessecary elements of speed to fit in cute, but useless cards like Moat and Mirror Universe is taking all the progress this formats made since TMD has opened and pissing it away.