Pimping FOW :)

[Mith]

Did anyone else see this? The Spawn one is pretty sweet...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=218&item=5903110218&rd=1

[Bram]

yah, saw it. I also seem to remember someone (JACO?) having them done or something.

[st00mie]

I think its kidna fucked up that she would take part in something like it, really.  I know that she used to be willing to do it for free, just send a SASE with a description of any alterations you wanted; does she still since this little scam is running?

[TracerBullet]

No, she started charging.  I was the last person to get mine done for free- I now have 16 different alterations, some as comic book characters, some with inside jokes (the dude smashing the Hammer of Bogarden saying "Hammer is for wimps"), and some that are totally random (the dude holding the "scalding salamander").

I kept asking for some that were bigger and bigger, and finally, I sent some home with her after a local expo, and she sent them back with the comicbook characters.  The foreign ones are all mine, 'cept the Foil Asian Fact, which is my friend James' (as from the quote).

As far as I know, she'll do the signing for free still, minor alterations for $10 each, and major alterations for $20 each.  That may have changed now that she started doing these, but yeah....

[Magi]

Holy shit! Those are awesome alters!

They put my alters to shame

[Jebus]

Those look awesome.

However, be sure to check with the head judge at your tournaments to be sure they will be allowed.

[Toad]

I would never allow them at the tourneys I'm head-judging.

[rvs]

I would never allow them at the tourneys I'm head-judging.

Um.... per defination? That seems like a really bad thing to do.  Assuming this won't mark the cards (which is the player's responsibility anyway), then I don't see a problem with it.

[Jebus]

I would never allow them at the tourneys I'm head-judging.

Um.... per defination? That seems like a really bad thing to do.  Assuming this won't mark the cards (which is the player's responsibility anyway), then I don't see a problem with it.

I'm going to have to agree with Toad, although some of the FoF's are borderline.

The art is far too obscured.  Some of the cards are pretty recognizable still, but these modifications have definately gone too far in my opinion.

[Toad]

I don't allow cards that can't be recognized with the artwork only or when the text box is not readable.

[Bram]

so my batman rituals are out of the question in frenchieland, too?

[st00mie]

Also, isn't this some kind of copyright infringement?  She is charging people for alterations, a great deal of which depict copyrighted characters.  Seems to me that this would be illegal or something...

[Bram]

It probably is. Unless ofcourse she's officially worked on those comics before. Freddy should be able to tell us how this works. Sadly, I never see him in here any more.

[Nameless]

Actually, you can't disallow the cards.  FYI.

All a player has to do is show, which they obviously can, what the card is supposed to be.  Anybody can tell they are still FoWs or FoFs, and that's all that is required.  The condition of these cards would, at worst, be classified was heavily worn or something along those lines in regards to condition; and so the DCI would sooner rip your Certification then let you disallow these.  The reason for this is quite simple...  It's like telling somebody they can't play a Lotus in a tournament because it's been beat to shit over the years, even though they are using sleeves.

Saying you don't like modifications is one thing, and not liking the art or what's been done is too, but nobody should be arbitrarily telling people they just plain can't use the card.

[wuaffiliate]

Does anyone have any actual rulings on this? Or is this just talking out of your asses?

[Toad]

Actually, you can't disallow the cards.  FYI.

All a player has to do is show, which they obviously can, what the card is supposed to be.  Anybody can tell they are still FoWs or FoFs, and that's all that is required.  The condition of these cards would, at worst, be classified was heavily worn or something along those lines in regards to condition; and so the DCI would sooner rip your Certification then let you disallow these.  The reason for this is quite simple...  It's like telling somebody they can't play a Lotus in a tournament because it's been beat to shit over the years, even though they are using sleeves.

Saying you don't like modifications is one thing, and not liking the art or what's been done is too, but nobody should be arbitrarily telling people they just plain can't use the card.

The Head Judge has final authority on what is legal and what is not in his tournament. He can perfectly disallow these cards if he wants.
I disallow these cards since you can't actually read what the card does.

[Bram]

Actually, you can't disallow the cards. FYI.

Yes you can. If the card is altered to such an extent where it can be told apart from other cards in your deck while in a sleeve (such as massive layers of paint from the Spawn logo or in the Lotus case: a gaping hole in the middle) by, say, gently feeling the sleeve, you sure as hell can disallow them.

And such massive alterations may cause it to be unclear for the oppnent what cards are in play, which is probably a requirement as well.

[Jebus]

See also:

28.   Taking Notes
Players are allowed to take brief written notes regarding the current match and may refer to those notes while this match is in progress. Players are expected to take their notes in a timely fashion. Players who take too much time will be subject to the appropriate provisions of the DCI Penalty Guidelines.

During draft tournaments, players and spectators may not take any notes. Players may not refer to outside notes during the match. This includes notes from previous matches of that day.

Cards used in a tournament may not have writing on their faces other than signatures or artistic modifications. Modifications may not obscure the artwork so as to make the card unrecognizable. If modifications to a card are deemed by the head judge to constitute outside notes or unsporting contact, the owner of the deck are subject to the appropriate provisions of the DCI Penalty Guidelines.

and also...

32.   Card Interpretation
The head judge is the final authority regarding card interpretations. See the DCI Floor Rules for the appropriate game for more detailed rules regarding how cards should be interpreted. If the head judge determines that a player is using non-English–language cards and/or misprints to create an advantage by using misleading text or artwork, that player will be subject to the appropriate provisions of the DCI Penalty Guidelines.

[wuaffiliate]

Does anyone have a ruling on what alterations are legal and which are not? I cannot find anything in the DCI Floor or Universal Tourney rules that says alterations are illegal.

Just like i have a merchant scroll with the text box blacked out with pen, and written on the pic "Find Target Ancestral Recall". It isn't misleading because i have my foily one right beside me, and a judge to clarify the oracle wording. Since the card text is not taken as the final wording, why would this matter?

Edit: thank you Jebus.

[Razvan]

Does anyone have a ruling on what alterations are legal and which are not? I cannot find anything in the DCI Floor or Universal Tourney rules that says alterations are illegal.

Just like i have a merchant scroll with the text box blacked out with pen, and written on the pic "Find Target Ancestral Recall". It isn't misleading because i have my foily one right beside me, and a judge to clarify the oracle wording. Since the card text is not taken as the final wording, why would this matter?

Edit: thank you Jebus.

You scored Lam's Scroll, for some reason, Wu?

I do think that if the name, casting cost, and text box (as well as card type, and p/t if applicable) are clear, the card is allowed. The picture is pretty irrelevant in most cases. Of course, this is up to the discretion of the judges, but if any of the previous characteristics were altered, the card might be illegal.

Also, what's the ruling on cards modified by Garfield?

[Jebus]

I do think that if the name, casting cost, and text box (as well as card type, and p/t if applicable) are clear, the card is allowed. The picture is pretty irrelevant in most cases. Of course, this is up to the discretion of the judges, but if any of the previous characteristics were altered, the card might be illegal.

The rules deterimine the art is most relevant, and for good reason.

Not everyone who plays Magic speaks the same language.  People should be able to instantly recognize a card, regardless of what language the card is printed in, by art alone.

Obscuring the art impedes this.

This is why you are allowed to play with foreign language cards.  It's the art that is important, not the text.

However, again, this is up to judge discretion, but the Floor rules are pretty clear.

Also, what's the ruling on cards modified by Garfield?

The same as cards modified by anyone else.

[Bram]

Yah. And circulating story that garfield can alter cards so that they can be used in the way he altered them (say, have Ancestral draw 4) is obviously just an urban legend

Same goes for my batman rituals. If it's a low level tourney, and I ask the judge nicely in advance, he'll usually allow them. And if he doesn't, I'll just whip out the foil beta asian signed ones It's completely his call, though.

[Razvan]

The rules deterimine the art is most relevant, and for good reason.

Not everyone who plays Magic speaks the same language.  People should be able to instantly recognize a card, regardless of what language the card is printed in, by art alone.

Obscuring the art impedes this.

This is why you are allowed to play with foreign language cards.  It's the art that is important, not the text.

Throughout history, the same card has had different art. Sometimes, my opponent would play a certain card with a new art, and I have no idea what the heck it is. Reading the card name helps a lot more.

But yeah, I see your point. I never really considered foreign language cards (for some reason, the only foreign cards I use are french fetch-lands, so eh...).

And Bram, I am guessing you just stuck the Batman pic on top of the ritual. Won't that make the card a bit thicker, and thus, (maybe), disqualify the card that way?

[rvs]

@Jebus: Even though the art is what most players recognise cards by, the NAME OF THE CARD that's on the cardboard decides what it is. There's a few miscuts floating around like that. I'll see if I can get them scanned.

[Jebus]

Throughout history, the same card has had different art. Sometimes, my opponent would play a certain card with a new art, and I have no idea what the heck it is. Reading the card name helps a lot more.

Obviously, but if you can't read the name either your screwed anyway.

@Jebus: Even though the art is what most players recognise cards by, the NAME OF THE CARD that's on the cardboard decides what it is. There's a few miscuts floating around like that. I'll see if I can get them scanned.

I am aware the the name dictates the card.  However, if the art can't be recognized due to being obscured, this doesn't matter.  It isn't legal.

[Nameless]

Well, you guys can quote rules all you want, and you can TO all you want, but the bottom line is this...

You CAN recognize these cards.  Period, end of story, and thus you CANNOT disallow them in a sanctioned tournament.

There isn't a single one of you who replied with a rules quote that can sit back and tell me you honestly and truly cannot tell that it's a Force of Will or Fact or Fiction.

I'm not trying to argue here people, I'm trying to maintain integrity.

If you don't like them, well fine, but just because you don't like them doesn't mean they shouldn't be legal to use.

I'm ONLY referring to the appearance of the card here.  If it's been altered so much that you just plain can't tell what card it is then obviously it wouldn't be legal, because they could say the card is anything they want.

I am assuming we can all use a little common sense here.

EDIT:

And to further this point...  Yes, AT THE TIME you can sit back and say blah blah I'm the T.O. and I say 'no' when I want.  Sure, you can do that, and you can also find yourself not only banned from DCI events, but no longer able to be involved in sanctioned tournament play for various suspension times.

Just because you are a TO doesn't make you God almighty to arbitrarily submit your iron will upon other simply because they have few or no alternatives to attend sanctioned tournaments.  I say all this hoping that it's not the case at all, and that I'm getting the wrong idea here.  I very much hope.

[Jebus]

I can disallow them, and I will.  

No big deal though.  I'm not going to break down your door and tell you to put them away.

[Magi]

I'm gonna have to side with Nameless. The examples shown are clearly Force of Wills. The alters don't offer any sort of advantage to the player using them (I'm unsure how the paint affects the thickness though) other than perhaps giving said person a massive ego boost. Even a non-english reading person could ask a judge to read the name on the card to confirm it is actually the card in question. The name and casting costs are clear, and enough of the text is readable to be able to clearly identify them as FoW's.

As I see it now, the only reason being given by people who wouldn't allow them is "because I can".

[Matt]

It would create a lot of extra work if you have to keep involving the judge, though. Theoretically it could fall under unsportsmanlike conduct if your cards judge-calling interrupts the flow of the tournament.

[Jebus]

I'm not doing it "because I can".

I'm doing it to circumvent potential disruption to the tournament.  This is perfectly within my rights and responsibilities and I feel obligated to do so.

I'm following the guidelines set forth by the DCI, and I feel they are correct.