New Deck Idea; Workshop-Based

[Azhrei]

This might suck, so bear with me. This is largely the result of watching and listening at the big tournament yesterday, but I had a couple ideas from it. First, this deck is running 5 Tinkers. You can do this because Transmute Artifact should never cost more that 2UU anyway, and will usually be 1UU or just UU. That's pretty good. Second, if you win the die roll your opponent basically never gets to play a Mox. I admit, it's totally a "win with the draw or bust" deck, but it should be able to get a Crucible lock with a Trinisphere or
Sphere of Resistance in play by turn two fairly often. The Viashino Heretics seem janky until you remember that they don't die to Fire/Ice, deal damage, and can kill VERY big artifact creatures with no trouble. Intuition makes for a very powerful search engine since Trinisphere doesn't affect it and you can go for Strips, any artifacts, Welders, or whatever. It's basically a 2U Demonic Tutor but better in this deck. The Razormane Masticores handle creatures very easily and have good overall synergy. I'll admit it really wants Gorilla Shamen, but Heretic can kill things Shaman can't... it's kind of a toss up, except if you go first Shaman is a lot less useful because your opponent will be mana-locked from the start. Plus it's less mana-intensive for anything that's sizeable, and with things like Gilded Lotus around, Shaman isn't even a mana-denial guarantee anymore.

I don't know if this will be great, but it should be at least decent with some potential.

I really, really want there to be a red Uktabi Orangutan for the sideboard. Is there that I just don't know about?

LMK what you think. I'm pretty sure it's sexy.

TINKER:

8 SoLoMoxCrypt
5 Strip Mine
4 Workshop
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Fetchislands
4 Volcanic Islands
2 Islands

4 Trinisphere
2 Crucible of Worlds
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Sphere of Resistance

4 Goblin Welder
2 Viashino Heretic
1 Tinker
4 Transmute Artifact

3 Intuition

1 Darksteel Colossus
3 Razormane Masticore

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

SB:
4 REB
1 Pyroblast
3 Rack and Ruin
3 Fire/Ice
4 Tsabo's Web

[Matt]

[card]Keldon Vandals[/card] could be your red Uktabi.

[jpmeyer]

A bunch of us were discussing a deck like this there.  We thought that the deck probably needs Gilded Lotus in order to be able to Transmute out the bigger stuff like Colossus and Sundering Titan.  Oh, and the Memory Jar that you forget to put in your deck.

[Azhrei]

A bunch of us were discussing a deck like this there.  We thought that the deck probably needs Gilded Lotus in order to be able to Transmute out the bigger stuff like Colossus and Sundering Titan.  Oh, and the Memory Jar that you forget to put in your deck.

While it's entirely possible to go that route, it would be wrong.

[Kowal]

It would be right.  I crushed Carl with The Fringe build of it at Richmond.

Your list is about six months in development behind ours.

[BlkXplsn]

Perhaps it would be more productive if you said how your decklist was different, why it evolved like that, and why you think it's better.

I certainly haven't tested anything with transmute artifact in it since uh... never. However, unless you give a reason of why this is bad\wrong, there is nothing to learn from your post.

[Kowal]

Well, the idea is I'd rather not have people play it.  If SCG randomly decides to publish non t8 lists though, I'll be happy to explain where the card choices came from.

[Marton]

Transmute artifact is really interesting with gilded lotus, myr enforcer and even frogmite (always great to transmute a frogmite into a jar . Personally I never liked playing with both sphere of resistance and trinisphere, unless you really aim for a total lockdown. They are particularly poor with chalice of the void. On a side note, even tho this isnt a stax deck, smokestack trinisphere and crucible of worlds all work great together. If you play with gilded lotus too, its even better since you can sack your lands to your smokestack with a gilded lotus in play.  I am a bit unsure about the heretics, personally I would cut them more for smokestacks. The idea here is that even though you dont really pack much card drawers, playing smokestack and trinisphere put your non-drawing cards to an advantage, in the sense that because you dont play much draw cards, you instead have more permanents into play. Basically your trinisphere turns your opponents draw cards into a dead draw, because the tempo loss hes having in spending his mana to play that draw card prevents him to play nore permanents which results in the smokestack keeping chugging on your opponents permanents. You could turn this into a slightly stax deck combined with more aggro in it. I cant hide you the fact that pentavus is great in that kind of deck (ever had a smokestack set at 4 crushing your opponent...good times I am unsure about the masticores. Do you really need 3? The 4x transmute artifact seem to be escessive at first sight. Could 2-3 be the right number ? BTW, it would be great to explain how and when you usually play your intuitions...particularly that 2nd and 3rd.

Later tonight, I'm going to teach you how to spell properly, remove excessive ellipses, and use paragraph breaks.
- Kowal

[TheWhiteDragon]

Not a bad idea for a deck.  I do like the basic workings of it.  It is using the best lock that The Man Show uses (crucible opened a new world to the deck), but there are a few quirks.  First, You have barely any card draw.  Maybe you forgot Jar, or maybe you didn't intend to include it.  Personally, I think Jar is the suck with Trinisphere, since you won't play the jar until after the 3sphere and then all your moxen and ancestral cost three = not the hotness.  I think the deck has trouble dealing with a fast threat and relies on mulliganing to a hand of first turn playable trinisphere.  If you give your opponent a turn to drop moxen and a quick threat, you need to get your razormane or tinker/colossus.  Intuition can get the razormane, but not the tinker.  Also, transmute doesn't work with Workshop mana because you aren't "casting" artifacts you bring into play.  You'ld most likely have to sac a prison piece that you workshopped out for another, or have UU3 extra mana to swap it with a mox (2 if you use the mox) and that is way past turn 2.  I personally like vamp, DT, MT because they fetch tinker, or a workshop, or ancestral, or walk, etc.  I do like the idea of intuition though and may try to fit it in the spot where StoP is in TMS...right now I swapped it for shaman for more mana denial (better than heretic).  I think using other utility critters that are beatsticks (i.e. trisk, duplicant) in a workshop deck are better.  Afterall, a deck relying on turn one workshop/trinisphere or crucible is going to need 3 extra non-workshop land to play heretic.  With shaman, you can play a turn one workshop/crucible...turn two land/shaman/trinisphere....then drop a strip effect and munch moxen all day.  All in all, I feel crucible is retardedly good and with trini/wastes it's the nutz.  Good build, but my only suggestion is think of what to do if they sneak a turn one threat or drop moxen...also either add much draw or main deck chains to hose their draw.  Chains are the nutz...makes people play one card a turn like Garfield intended and MAKES YOUR OPPONENTS HAVE NO FUN   , which I know you love.  The tutors are a must too...they = 4 tinkers effectively whereas intuition doesn't.
Forgot to mention - since the Trinisphere is applied last to the spell, SoR doesn't work on spells that cost 2 or less with trini in play...they still cost 3. It does however make your own intuitions cost 4 non workshop mana and a chalice for 2 to cost 5 instead of 4. Those are both frowns in my book.

Posts merged.  Did you just ignore the asshole comment I left in the post above?  Good god, people.  Literacy is necessary for posting privileges on TheManaDrain.
- Kowal[/color]

[Kasuras]

Well, I've tried to get Eric Miller's list by reading the report. And I've assembled quite some parts of the list:

1 Triskelion
1 Strip Mine
1 Maze of Ith
1 Grim Monolith
1 Sol Ring
1 Burning Wish
1 Karn, Silver Golem
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Duplicant
2 Su-Chi
1 Tolarian Academy
2 Wasteland
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Goblin Welder
1 City of Brass
1 Black Lotus
4 Juggernaut
1 Swords to Plowshares
4 Mishra's Workshop
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Tinker
2 Trinisphere
1 Chains of Mephistopheles

Sideboard
SB:  1 Dust to Dust
SB:  1 Hull Breach
SB:  1 Balance
SB:  1 Sundering Titan
SB:  1 Trinisphere
SB:  2 Blue Elemental Blast

I've added some workshops and juggernauts myself, although I'm not 100% sure of those counts. It would, however, be quite absurd if he didn't play 4 workshop and 4 juggernaut.

A first look at the decklist was: a pile of broken stuff. I do think this is the future of staxx.

Removed: "It looks like trinisphere and crucible of worlds are the only prison parts in the deck." Yeah right. What was I thinking?

[AngryPheldagrif]

Posts merged.  Did you just ignore the asshole comment I left in the post above?  Good god people.  Literacy is necessary for posting priveleges on TheManaDrain.
- Kowal[/color]

There should be a requirement that all members must survive 1 month at Misetings before they're allowed to post here.

As for the deck, how do you support Razormanes with almost no draw? You definitely need Gilded Lotus and Memory Jar if you're going to be Transmuting.

-Dan

[edit]: @Kowal. Wow that's one freaky list. And he's off by a ton.

[Kowal]

AP:  He's trying to guess Eric Miller's list.  If he updated himself on SCG, he'd know the list was already posted.

[kl0wn]

Perhaps it would be more productive if you said how your decklist was different, why it evolved like that, and why you think it's better.

Back in January when first developing the concept, I came to a fork in the road. The road that never got tested was the concept that Azhrei is suggesting.

There was too much negergy among the cards that would be involved and the deck itself would be slow as your grandmother hobbling into the nursing home bathroom for her daily colonic, resulting in the potential for more unintentional draws.

Essentially the problem with it is that you're forced to run a prison deck without Force Of Will that is much slower than our build (the current Roscoe). That alone was reason enough to scrap the idea.

[Wollblad]

Your deck suffers somewhat from the same problem as Workshop Slaver does. You have a lot of coloured spells and Workshops. That will often result in stalling on one Workshop and two non-Workshop mana. Workshop Slaver solves this by playing a Gilded Lotus for those mana, but your deck will do nothing to help itself until you draw another non-Workshop mana. If you want to use Transmute Artifact, I would say that Gilded Lotus is the way to go. I've tested that combination in Stax, and wathever you think of Transmute in Stax, the fact that Transmute workes much better with Gilded remains. I also found that Transmute, unlike Tinker, is not an early game spell. First you need something rather costly to saccrifice and you need {U} for Transmute, thus four are at least one, probably two too many. Casting it is a large investment, and if it resolves, you want to get something a little more broken than a Razormane Masticore. Things like Mindslaver, Memory Jar and, if you have vast amount of mana, Sundering Titan.

I also found, as Marton already pointed out, that Transmute and Chalice are pretty bad together. You can play it for zero which is good early on. Then you can play it for one stopping all your Welders and your only chans to get a Welder out is to Transmute your Chalice, which won't give you much useful, and on two Chalice will stop all Transmute. Of course, when you play Tranmute, you can sacrifice a Chalice that's on two and resolve your Transmute, but then you open up to Mana Drain and as before, you won't aford to fetch anything really useful. Then, as also has been pointed out, Sphere of Resistance and Trinisphere isn't the hottest combo.

In short: Your deck needs a new mana base and a different disruption base.

[Azhrei]

First of all, damn you JP for moving this thread into the open forum.

Second, Gilded Lotus is bad. It's really, really not the way to go with this. If you use Gilded Lotus, you can Tinker into larger threats, but you add mana and cards to the chain necessary to do anything useful.

Mindslaver is a pile of crap. Memory Jar is valueless in a deck that runs Trinisphere. Sundering Titan is great and all, but as it should be *plainly* evident, this deck will lock down an opponent faster than it could get a Sundering Titan. Things like Mindslaver and Sundering Titan are just examples of the overwhelmingly Timmy mentality of Type One players-- OMG l00k @ all the MaNa!!!1111!!!!! i must cast a BIG CREATURE!!!11!!!one!!!!

And then they wonder why their deck craps out on them and the top spots get taken by  decks like Fish and The Man Show that are simple, straighforward, and consistent.

Like, I said, there are a couple things that will need to get sorted out (Shamen, etc.). It might not even be any good in the end, but I doubt that. I'm certain that the principles used are sound, however.

[Dr. Sylvan]

First of all, damn you JP for moving this thread into the open forum.

I insisted. You get free credit for being you, Azh, but untested ideas with one-liner responses scream for moving. [End of discussion about Moderator actions.]

You grouped [card]Mindslaver[/card] and [card]Sundering Titan[/card] together when they act entirely differently. Mindslaver is indeed a Timmy card a lot of the time, relying on the opponent's deck to have a loss condition. Short Bus was 100% correct to cut these from 7/10, IMO. Sundering Titan is very Spike, though. It is a game-ender all by itself, and in a Workshop deck, that is worth eight mana. IMO Sundering Titan is the best reason to play with Workshops, followed closely by lock components.

[Azhrei]

I disagree that Sundering Titan is a Spike card, for one simple reason: it makes you win big, but takes more effort to get going.

Consider this: in the end, all the matters is IF you won, not HOW.

Sundering Titan creates a very big swing in tempo, true. It's also obviously a strong deck, but because it's very Johnny/Timmy, it's inconsistent fairly often. The basic problem is that it requires you to play Gilded Lotus, which means that you are forced into a situation where you almost MUST get card X before you can use card Y. By avoiding the Timmy trap (to be fair, the Colossus might be better as something else, possibly even a Titan) of "omg so cool!!!", you can find things that win less spectacularly, but still win.

When Hulk was new, we had things like Regrowth and Upheaval in it, because it was really neat-o to Berserk 3 times and attack for 268 points worth ot trample damage... and it was good, but when we cut out the crap that was unnecessary, no matter how "cool" it was, it won GenCon and the side events besides.

If "The Danger of Cool Things" isn't required reading, it should be. Winning big is irrelevant compared to winning consistently.

Not saying this deck does, of course, but that the arguments against the choices I made are based on fundamentally flawed theory. My choices may prove to be incorrect, but my reasoning is sound and that is why I believe I'm on the right path here.

[Smmenen]

Considering the vast applications Transmute might have and how uber-powerful Tinker is right now I think abusing Transmute is a good idea.   However, I'm very unclear about your path to victory.

And your analysis of Slaver isn't very accurate.  Slaver dominated the Pro Tour during Extended for one event.

As for Titan, it's Ernham Geddon in the same card.

[kl0wn]

the arguments against the choices I made are based on fundamentally flawed theory

I don't see how "I want Force of Will and a combo element" is based on fundamentally flawed theory.

[Azhrei]

I don't see how "I want Force of Will and a combo element" is based on fundamentally flawed theory.

Believe it or not, not everything I say relates to you.  :lol:

[NastyNate]

Isn't the synergy between Su-Chi and transmute artifact almost too obvious here?

I would think that your creature base should consist of 4 su-chi, 4 welders, and some transmutation targets like colossus, duplicant, triskelion, and sundering titan. Remember too that su-chi is no slouch for a turn one beater either.

Your engine could consist of a mixture of 3-4 TFK, 3-4 Transmute, Tinker, Ancestral, Time Walk, and Memory Jar. Remeber transmute fetches jar so there is certainly no lack of card drawing here.

Transmute is particularly vulnerable to REB, so in order to insure that you don't needlessly sacrifice artifacts, you need to deny your opponent that red mana. A disruption core of 4 Trinispheres, 3 Crucibles, 4 Wasteland, and a Strip Mine should work out nicely.

In the mana base Gilded lotus is key; not only does it provide  much needed blue mana for transmute, but it is five casting cost as well, which makes it ideal for a transmutation sacrifice OR target. So a mana base consisting of 4 Shops, 4 Shivan Reefs, 4 City of Brass, 1 Academy, 3 Gilded Lotus, 1 Mana Vault, and 8 SoLoMoxCrypt would be pretty solid.

Do the math. This adds up to almost sixty cards exactly, and has the makings of a pretty sick deck. But Heh, what do I know?

[Wollblad]

I've tested Workshop Slaver where I accentuated it's aggressive side. I made the following changes:
- Pentavus
- Memnarch
- 4 Chalice
- 1 Slaver
- 4 Brainstorm
+ 4 Su-Chi
+ 3 Tranmute
+ 4 Tangle Wire
Of course you smite Fish, Stax and Mud, but Tog and Control Slaver became more or less impossible before sidebaord. The reason is that none of the last mentioned decks fear Su-Chi as a lone threat. Synnergi with Transmute, indeed, but does that help when it either gets welded down or Transmute get countered?

At NastyNate, I can also say that 4 Trinisphere, 2 Cruicible and Waste+Strip is not enough for protection. This weekend I played TnT with those components and I was suprised how weak that lock was. It needs some kind of backup. As been pointed out before, Chalice is a bad choice. The next that comes into mind is Tangle Wire, but the deck has few permanents to tap. A more controversive suggestion is Smokestack. It goes in the same direction as Trinisphere/Cruiclbe/Titan. We will then get something that looks like an aggresive Stax with weaker lock, better search engine and faster beats. Comments on such an idea?

[hulk3rules]

Things like Mindslaver and Sundering Titan are just examples of the overwhelmingly Timmy mentality of Type One players-- OMG l00k @ all the MaNa!!!1111!!!!! i must cast a BIG CREATURE!!!11!!!one!!!!

So why are you playing darksteel colossus?

[Azhrei]

Just an experiment. I fully expect it to suck, but a part of me wants it to be awesome. I'm not made of stone.

Is anyone actually testing this at all? I've had some good input for it but I'm curious to see an actual analysis based on experimentation of what works, what doesn't, and why.

[PucktheCat]

I tested it a bit.  It certainly can win some games.

Have you considered 1 or more Mishra's Factory?  They have incredible synergy with a number of cards in the deck.

Re Sundering Titan:  While he is certainly better than Mindslaver, I have to agree with Azhrei that he is questionable otherwise.  His comes into play ability is awesome, but he is a shitty, shitty creature.  I can't tell you how often I have raced him with my Fish deck and won.

Leo

[ctthespian]

[quote="hulk3rules

So why are you playing darksteel colossus?[/quote]

I think other than Angel in 4CC nothing can really stand up to razormane anyway.  I think there the better route to victory.

[EvilSirMark]

It's fairly intimidating to be posting in a thread so full of "Full TMD" members but here is my 2-cents anyway.

If this had been one of our posts, and by "our" I mean someone who is not a full member, it would have been locked. You posted a decklist, with nearly no explaination for the card choices or how the deck works. I think it might be a little more helpful for the readers here if you maybe did some explaining about why you think your cards are better suited for the deck, rather than just argue with everyone who expresses their opinion on the pile status of your deck.

You can't really expect everyone to just apprentice up the deck and start testing it against their gauntlet, just because you had a hunch in your sleep can you? if you truely believe the deck has potential I fully expect to see you come back over the top here with an explaination for your deck, and probably a couple flame posts questioning my sexuality and business even reading TMD.

Or maybe I missed that line in the TMD guidelines for posting that said the Full members were exempt from the rules, I certainly hope that is not the case however.

[Azhrei]

Actually, I'm a moderator.

But, in case anyone was curious, the basic plan here is:

Turn One: Trinisphere, Sphere, or Chalice, ruining Moxen for the other side. Maybe a Welder too.
Turn Two: Strip Mine, Tinker, or Intuition. Establish base, or enhance lock.
Turn Three: Tinker out Crucible of Worlds, lock down all mana forever. The rest of it is academic-- I rarely expect this to have to deal damage to win.

Thus far, Apprentice goldfishing has been promising. The Darksteel Colossus should probably be a "normal" Masticore, however. There may also be room for a Grim Monolith possibly, or at least a Mana Vault.

I also think that 3 fetchlands might be better, with a third Island getting involved.

I think my choices are correct because it has fewer steps and takes less mana to pull off than other options. The biggest weakness this deck has is that if it doesn't go first it may be considerably weaker, but Vintage is basically Type Coin Flip between two equal decks anyway.

[NastyNate]

I have been playing a 7-10 like deck with many of the same cards in this deck. IMHO with a deck like this, total lock down is not the goal, but it does happen quite frequently. Su-Chi may seem like junk, but it is not at all. There is a reason that it saw play in TNT for so long. First turn 4/4s are very nice; no they don't race togs, or dryads very well, but they do smack around smaller creatures.

The reason why they fit so nicely isn't just the mana they provide when welded or transmuted, but also their ability to drop early, and turn into something even nastier when they no longer serve a purpose. You can very easily transmute them into sundering titan and obliterate opposing mana bases; think of it as setting up for titan in 7-10, but beating for 4 while you do it.

The huge things you can bring into play end games on their own. They may seem like "Timmy cards," but winning isn't a Timmy mentality now is it? Your lock components may be few in number, but they are the strongest locks available. Trinisphere and CoW can end games vs. Fish, 4C Control, Storm Combo, Hulk, GAT, and hell dare I say it, just about every deck that isn't workshop based. Against other workshop decks where the locks are less effective, the huge beaters you play make all the difference; what kills faster, smokestack, or darksteel colossus?

Although I havn't tested transmute as much as I would have liked to, but I have played with Trinisphere, Cow, and Sundering Titan together. Don't dismiss this so easily; they are sick!

Imagine it like Stax with a lock component that swings for seven, without Karn! Transmute has the ability to accomplish the same things as the draw sevens in Stax, without replenishing your opponent's hand. It will enable you to drop other lock components, win conditions or memory jar; except you choose what you get rather than being draw dependant. What we're trying to accomplish here is to meld the best concepts of Stax, TNT, and 7-10 split into one coherent deck; Even unrefigned this deck has enormous potential, and I would play it without hesitation.

"The Man Show" is a very similar in concept to this, and placed second at the Richmond P9 tournament. Chew on that for minute.

[Azhrei]

"The Man Show" is a very similar in concept to this, and placed second at the Richmond P9 tournament. Chew on that for minute.

Lol, Eric was my roommate for two years. I'm well, well versed in that deck, even back when it had a Sword of the Ages in it.