With the Star City P9 tournament behind us, what lies ahead?

[nether__void]

While it hasn't been a full 24 hours since the Star City P9 Tournament wrapped up, TMD members and Type 1 fans worldwide have likely read the reports and pondered what impact the results of this much-hyped event will bring to the format.

With a host of Fish decks performing well, but falling short of going the distance, a new Aggro Workshop build on the loose (Eric Miller's "The Man Show"), and 4cc chalking up another big win, what changes can we expect to see in the metagame going into the Type One World Championships at GenCon?

[Kowal]

People are beginning to realize tog is terrible and loses to decks with small mana curves or good spells like Scrying.

JP found this out first hand when he got wrecked by a negator and later by Guerilla Tactics and Price of Progress.

It wasn't poor playing;  merely the handicap of playing a pile.

[TrixR4Kidz]

Hopefully there are a bunch of power tournies, I know next saturday I'll be at the pittsfield MA. one for the dual moxen, and hopefully many more to come this summer.  I went to the myriad games tourny this weekend and topped 8 with seven ten, losing to Zher-B.S. but it was fun non the less

also, eric millers "the man show" deck, is the goofiest deck I have ever seen, I don't see how it did as good as it did, I give him credit for being creative, but it has soo many questionable cards in it, but hey, congrats on the great finish


TOG IS DEAD. even at myriad games, there were very few tog decks, non of which got into the top 8

[Ultima]

Ben, I've always known you didn't like Tog but i'd hardly think that after this loss, that means its just a pile.

Tog has always put up good standings, it wasn't a tog day this time.

[jpmeyer]

The amusing part was that if I played poorly and did stuff like casting Tog without any kind of backup against a player with a red deck with 4 mountains untapped, I probably would've won all of the games that I lost that day.

[Mith]

This is going to be the summer of Fish...

[nether__void]

How much hate were folks packing against Fish yesterday?  

While Fish didn't end up on top, I would anticipate that yesterday's strong showing will only add to the deck's popularity.

[VGB]

People are beginning to realize tog is terrible and loses to decks with small mana curves or good spells like Scrying.

Tog is a 1 turn win condition - a superlative combo and aggro card all in one.

Every deck in T1 has a small mana curve.

And Scrying is graveyard dependent and has poor synergy with Will, unlike cards in Tog (besides, well, Tog of course   ).

It wasn't poor playing;  merely the handicap of playing a pile.

So one tournament T8 should render the performance of the deck globally for the past year irrelevant?

The main problem with the deck was that it has been public enemy #1 for so long that everybody guns for it - and it has suffered as a result (note the prevalence of REB in so many archetypal sideboards).  Once Tog falls below the radar again, I expect it to make a rebound.

[Zherbus]

I went to the myriad games tourny this weekend and topped 8 with seven ten, losing to Zher-B.S. but it was fun non the less

What's that supposed to mean?

[nether__void]

While the inclusion of Crucible in both maindeck and sideboard has been debated as of late, it would appear that a number of the top finishers were packing it.  

Given the high visibility of the SCG event, I would anticipate that Crucible will find its way into many sideboards in the months to come.  Clearing your opponent's board of land or recurring manlands just seems too hard to pass up...

[jpmeyer]

THIS JUST IN: DECK DOESN'T WIN EVERY TOURNAMENT EVER, CONSIDERED DEAD.

[Machinus]

This is going to be the summer of Fish...

Fish was already very popular before this tournament. I don't think this changes much, since Fish was credited with the CCC and the ECC championships before SCG, and the deck has won against all kinds of good decks and good players alike. Several decks have had strong debuts this year, like slaver and germbus, and continue to do well despite not being the "hot" decks of the moment, which I guess is what people think Fish is right now.

[TrixR4Kidz]

What's that supposed to mean?

haha nothing, The crushing blow known as balance, and me not drawing a threat after going thirst/FoF on like turn 2 with tons of mana open, Wasn't taking a personal shot in anyway, Just making some humor out of the games we played

[Zherbus]

I apologize for that! Did I do well to hide my hardon when you Titan'd my lands away?

[TrixR4Kidz]

Yea, You did a pretty good job I must say so, I thought I had the game won when I resolved the tinker, and blew your lands up, I thought about "if he has cunning wish" and figured you'd be mana short if you did, then you balanced, and I totally forgot about that.  Was there even another answer that would have prevented the win like that? however, I do think I made the right move to tinker in titan, I figured it'd screw you over, not me, I debated tinkering in a second trisk, So I could bring your ping distance down to 6, but those two lands were too tempting

haha oh well

[xrizzo]

While the inclusion of Crucible in both maindeck and sideboard has been debated as of late, it would appear that a number of the top finishers were packing it.

Crucible is good - but I think it is metagame dependent.  It should be a SB card in angel control in a healthy meta: against combo or aggro, it is a dead draw.  In a control meta (like the NE) one maindeck is more than enough.  


/begin mini-tourney report

The tournament I attended today had 0 tog as well.  It is not dead, but it is clearly not the best deck in the format right now.

The top 4 in Los Angeles was myself with a 3c control deck, a mad dragon deck, a masknought deck, and a stax deck.  Quite varied.  There were 14 people for the sanctioned tournament, and ~10 were powered.

/end mini-tourney report

[Kowal]

In response to people bitching about my summary of Tog sucking:

Straight from the Pipmeister's results.  I decided to use 4cc as the control of this experiment, partially because I think it's good, and partially because it's my favorite deck to play.  It's extra relevant thanks to Richmond, too.

April
4cc's t8 percentage:  9.7%
Tog's t8 percentage:  8.5%

May
4cc's t8 percentage:  14.6%
Tog's t8 percentage:  10.4%

June
4cc's t8 percentage:  19.6%
Tog's t8 percentage:  10.7%

I got a little more curious and prodded Dr Seel-Von for placings and origins of the results.  Here's what we come up with for June.

4cc's t8 placings:
1,1,1,1,2,2,4,5,7,7,8

Tog's t8 placings:
2,4,7,7,8,8

That's interesting.  Tog doesn't win, AND it doesn't top eight as much.  How good.  So, what metagames are suspect of putting Tog in to t8s?  Well, three of those six Tog results are all from Italy.  Note only one 4cc is from Italy.  Not to pick on Italy, but they must admit they have a pretty bizarre metagame.  I could rant like Kerz, but I'm willing to accept some places are simply different.

But the results don't lie.  Tog does not win.  No matter what you've been led to believe, Tog is a weak deck.

Not only is Tog pretty good at losing to every decent deck in the format, (more than just myself are reporting favorable Tog matchups with 4cc, plus FCG and Gay/red tend to just crush it, and don't get me started on Dragon) but it also loses to the bad ones.  JP managed to lose to Suicide Black AND Lightning Bolts.  Smmenen took Tog in to the losers bracket with a savage beating from Ghitu Encampment.

Play a better deck.  Those mana drains could be playing Exalted Angels or Skeletal Scryings.

[Smmenen]

I completely agree with the comment that Tog isn't as good anymore.  I'm not even sure it's tier one.

Although I'd like to reiterate my position that Fish is probably the strongest deck in the format.

[Magi]

Although I'd like to reiterate my position that Fish is probably the strongest deck in the format.

I agree.

I played fish (3 color, with help from JOrlove) this weekend at a Timewalk tournament. first place. It wrecked everything.

FISH IS UNSTOPPABLE!!!! It's just too versatile.

[TheWhiteDragon]

also, eric millers "the man show" deck, is the goofiest deck I have ever seen, I don't see how it did as good as it did

We often chalk off what we don't understand.  Thanks for the hats off on my top 2 finish.  I really don't think The Man Show is goofy at all.  It actually only has one questionable card in my opinion which has already been changed.  It has so many lil' "bend you over and butt sex you" tricks that it took down Gat, Fish, and Tog in the tourney, usually beats Germbus (Panas had the '3 out of 4 mox hand' to my first turn crucible lock) and runs at least 50/50, I think even better than that, against other workshop decks like slaver, stax, mud, 7/10 (though Shortbus 7/10 is the optimal 7/10 and can run even with TMS).  FCG is the ONLY match up that causes problems and even that needs the food chain to beat me...goblin beats alone won't do it.  What may seem random and goofy is really a finely tuned machine.  It's just different is all.  Don't hate me cause I'm different.  Where's the love?  

[TheWhiteDragon]

I completely agree with the comment that Tog isn't as good anymore. I'm not even sure it's tier one.

Although I'd like to reiterate my position that Fish is probably the strongest deck in the format.

I think PTWorm's rod must be getting chaffed from all that sucking on it that you have been doing.  I will admit that Marc is perhaps one of the best magic players I have seen, but Fish does well for him because it is HIS deck and he knows it like he knows the top of your head from the aerial view.  Fish is strong and a good deck, but all the other players playing fish (not to discredit some good players) are not the dominant force as you think.  It's just that they keep running into Tog and control, which the deck was designed to beat.  I ran over 4 fish decks on Saturday and never feared them.  The only thing I worried about was playing against Marc cause he's a great player, not because Fish is the pwn all you make it out to be.  Once the metagame shifts or people start respecting it's ability to beat hulk/control by boarding more antifish and less anti-combo/workshop, fish will stop coming out in such strong numbers.  I give Marc mad props for inventing a good deck that was a great metagame call for many tourneys, but the poor man's balls are running dry...rest your lips a bit.

[Matt]

FCG is the ONLY match up that causes problems

Some of us have already begun testing your deck, and so far, you can add Affinity to the list of things that beat your deck. It's almost literally "Trinisphere or no?" Perhaps it's being played wrong, because it IS new - but I doubt it.

Also, do not double-post.

[rozetta]

To be honest, I think it was common knowledge that loads of people would go there with blue-based control (especially fish and tog), which would automatically put a lot of players off playing combo. The guy who brought "The Man Show" made a very good metagame call and could have easily won the whole thing. I'm honestly surprised more people didn't take advantage of that same gaping hole, instead choosing to play control mirrors all day.

After all this talk about teams forwarding innovation, the most truly innovative deck in the top 8 was made by an invididual, not a team. (Or is everyone keeping their tech quiet until GenCon?)

Still, congratulations to everyone who participated, especially those who made the top 8 and I bet it was a lot of fun had by all! I had fun enough drinking beers and watching the coverage.

[Frappie]

Well well well, I finished 11th with FCG and was pretty proud of myself. I do agree that the fish deck is probably my hardest followed by 7/10. I have since made some changes to my deck, I.E. cutting the worthless crap they call food chain. The reason for cutting food chain is this, if 1 out of 20 games the card is an instant win, however the other 19 it dosn't do anything for you would you run it? See you guys at the next tourny, I will have tech'd out my 4 spare slots for you damn fish players.

[VGB]

In response to people bitching about my summary of Tog sucking:

I got a little more curious and prodded Dr Seel-Von for placings and origins of the results.  Here's what we come up with for June.

4cc's t8 placings:
1,1,1,1,2,2,4,5,7,7,8

Tog's t8 placings:
2,4,7,7,8,8

In response to somebody bitching about being refuted:

GroStill with a Tog in it wins Las Vegas 6/12/04
Hulk wins Jet tourney in Pittsfield, MA 6/19/04
Hulk wins Origins via matchslip tech 6/27/04

[Triple_S]

While Eric's deck is completely his own creation and build, the practice w/ other members of Short Bus no doubt helped out a great deal (he is SliverKing's former roommate for a couple of years).

[Toad]

In response to somebody bitching about being refuted:

GroStill with a Tog in it wins Las Vegas 6/12/04
Hulk wins Jet tourney in Pittsfield, MA 6/19/04
Hulk wins Origins via matchslip tech 6/27/04

Tourneys with 4 Swiss rounds and crappy metagames don't count. I Top4'ed in a random tourney with 20 players with ReapLace so the deck must be awesome.

[VGB]

Tourneys with 4 Swiss rounds and crappy metagames don't count. I Top4'ed in a random tourney with 20 players with ReapLace so the deck must be awesome.

I left out a few that I found on this site that were strictly scrubby, including this one: 4color Hulk wins NFLD power trial tourney 6/12/04

Those three links I post above were just the noteworthy tournaments that Tog decks took first place that I found on this site - I'm sure if I took the time to research other sites I would find others for just the month of June.

The point is that Kowal misrepresented tournament results for Tog in the June metagame, and I felt compelled to uncover the truth.

[Toad]

Tourneys with less than 6 Swiss rounds should not be taken into account for statistics. 2-1-1 is often enough to Top4 in a 4-swiss tourneys (less than 16 persons).

[TrixR4Kidz]

It's just different is all. Don't hate me cause I'm different. Where's the love?

Oh no no, I don't, I think this deck is really interesting, I want to play test with it just to see how it operates, I have a few questions, Why the su-chi's and why burning wish, and karn? There are just a few cards i'd probably switch out, Did you have a problem with no card drawing? and did you find yourself using mystical tutor alot? I am so pumped you tinkered in darksteel first turn in finals and won, how cool is that