[Deck] Team DD presents: Salvagers v3.0.dec

[AngryPheldagrif]

The newest incarnation of Salvagers.dec is the result of extensive testing and reworking. Unfortunately, because the Wisconsin Type 1 scene contains exactly one montly tournament, we will have to depend on others for tournament wins. Lotushead has already taken his version to a tournament win and a second place finish, and I know that at least one of the major teams has a secret version of the deck being tinkered with. As with last time, I’m only going to include a brief overview of card choices and whatnot. Our newest innovations will be elaborated, of course. Thanks for all the help you guys have given so far!

-Dan Carp, AngryPheldagrif, Team DD Head designer/tester

**note** I had the foresight to get permission ahead of time to have the thread kept in Open this time.

Our current decklist:

Team DD Presents: Salvagers3.0.dec
1 Pyrite Spellbomb
3 Trinket Mage
4 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
3 Intuition
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
4 Accumulated Knowledge
4 Auriok Salvagers
3 Cunning Wish
4 Mana Drain
2 Duress
4 Force of Will
2 Underground Sea
1 Island
2 Tundra
2 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 City of Brass
1 Lion’s Eye Diamond
1 Black Lotus
1 Time Walk
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
Sideboard:
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Rack and Ruin
1 Misdirection
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Disenchant
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Stroke of Genius/Brain Freeze, doesn't make much of a difference
1 Gamble
1 Stifle
1 Shallow Grave
1 Coffin Purge
3 Metagame Slots (or just 3 more wishable instants)

A brief breakdown of the deck:

The control:

4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
2 Duress
3 Cunning Wish

It’s a pretty standard Hulk-like setup. A full complement of counters lets you play the control game to the fullest. Mana Drains can also help to setup your complement of colorless intensive spells like Intuition and Salvagers. Duresses are a nice touch that add a proactive element to the deck more in line with standard combo. Since the deck features a whole host of must-counter cards, Duress becomes a damned if you do, damned if you don’t choice. Either way they lose a counter, and tricks like hiding business spells with Brainstorm matter little. Cunning Wishes are great for all-purpose control, and double as a win condition.

The draw:

4 Brainstorm
4 Accumulated Knowledge
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

A pretty basic setup. The Accumulated Knowledges are golden in a deck that already abuses Intuition. Brainstorm and Recall are fairly self-explanatory, and I stuck Time Walk in here because I don’t have a ‘random brokenness’ category. It’s also a really great card in the sense that an extra draw, land drop, and untap are all vital to a quick comboing.

The tutoring:

3 Trinket Mage
3 Intuition
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor

Demonic and Vampiric are fairly obvious. Trinket Mages are amazingly abusive in a deck that plays no artifacts above 1 mana. Their synergy combo-wise turns them into must-counters in a deck already filled with must-counters. Intuitions are the real MVP here, however. In addition to acting as a rough Demonic for your 4-ofs, Intuition with a Salvagers in play fetches both pieces of your combo. As if that weren’t enough, it even goes with AK for drawing power.

The combo:

4 Auriok Salvagers
1 Black Lotus
1 Lion’s Eye Diamond
1 Pyrite Spellbomb

These accomplish the simple combo of Auriok Salvagers + Lotus or LED = infinite mana. With that, you can infinitely recur a Pyrite Spellbomb or Cunning Wish for a Stroke of Genius. It’s especially vicious because it isn’t stopped by Platinum Angel or True Believer. Also, the individual combo pieces are good or at least not useless on their own. Even Salvagers can beat and pull back lost Moxen and such.
**note** A lot of people wanted Brain Freeze over Stroke, and they were right about the stack thing, for which I apologize. Regardless, you will be Wishing for Entomb for the Spellbomb most of the time, so it makes little difference. I pulled Stroke for Brain Freeze in my version, but it's your choice.

The mana:

1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
2 Underground Sea
1 Island
2 Tundra
2 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 City of Brass

A pretty basic mana setup. We put in a ton of fetchlands to go along with the quick nature of the deck, as you don’t want to draw land later. Other than that it’s pretty standard, with the Cities helping to color fix and being great synergy with Cunning Wish.

The sideboard:

1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Rack and Ruin
1 Misdirection
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Disenchant
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Stroke of Genius/Brainfreeze
1 Gamble
1 Stifle
1 Shallow Grave
1 Coffin Purge
3 Metagame Slots (or just 3 more wishable instants)

A pretty standard wishboard. Gamble and Shallow Grave are great tech to fetch combo pieces and bring back Salvagers for surprise victories, respectively. Unable to agree on solid choices, we left the last 3 spaces open for whatever you prefer. I’ve run them with everything from 2 Togs and a Berserk to a full playset of Stifles. It all depends on what you expect to face.


Some general notes:
If you try for pure combo, the deck can goldfish an average of somewhere between turns 3 and 4. Were this supposed to be a purely combo deck this would be unacceptable, but the deck isn’t designed to goldfish like Belcher or Draw-7 does. With a decent hand and a Mox or 2, the deck can easily goldfish turn 2 or even 1 however.

I’m not going to go through every single match for the umpteenth time, but I’ll at least give a basic overview of the archetype factor.

Random and outdated aggro: This deck utterly rolls things like AnkhSligh and such. I know it doesn’t mean a whole lot, but you never know what might just roll you, seeing to JP’s recent rolling care of Suicide Black.

Control: For the most part these are in you favor. Being able to trade counter for counter, card draw for card draw, they’re often left with nothing by the time you manage to combo off. The notable exception is Keeper, which remains extremely painful through maindeck Swords to Plowshares.

Prison: This is probably the worst of the archetypes to deal with, as they feature a ton of combo disruption cards such as Chalice and Trinisphere. It’s generally a toss-up between who can get a decent control set up faster. If you see these a lot then you might want to use those 3 extra spaces in the board for some more hate.

Pure combo: You’re really no better or worse in this matchup than any other control deck.

Aggro-Control: With Fish emerging as an extremely Tier 1 deck, this matchup becomes very important. With creature based counters and a ton of tempo, as well as the ever-painful maindeck Null Rod, you’ve got your work cut out for you. By letting them start out fast and gradually overextend you can often just set up explosive wins where they’re stuck with inadequate backup for your sudden victory. The trick is to let a lot of their stuff resolve, letting them get confident and going in for the kill, while you prepare for your victory. Choose your targets carefully, because you want to try to combo out under a Force, Drain, or Duress, since they often cannot deal with the advent of counter backup.


As always, we just want feedback, suggestions, etc. You guys have been a tremendous help so far, coming up with a ton of good ideas that we've implemented with a lot of success. Keep up the good work!

-Dan, Team DD lead tester/designer

[LotusHead]

Thanks for pointing out the Failure of Brain Freeze.  I initially had Stroke AND Brain Freeze in there (Why? I'm a noob like that still) but I forgot about the mana burn part.  I may owe someone an oppology back at the C&J's T1 tourney. Although, I think it was against Daniel with Stompy but I think I had Trinket Mage drawn from Brainstorm at the time, choosing flashier Wish win.

Brain Freeze= Out of deck forever. Although, as a responce to Yawgmoth's Will (after Will takes effect. hehe.)

Good Work.

[Malhavoc]

Sorry, I did not understand the problem with brainfreeze.. I see no danger of mana burn.. I would play it this way:

Salvager in play, lotus in play.

Sac the lotus for WWW, use 2 mana to take it back (W floating), play it, sac for WWW, use the salvagers, and then use the salvager a second time in response on the same lotus, then draining away the floating WW; the first activation will be countered when it resolves, but who cares? I've drained away unneeded mana. This way I can cast how many times I want the lotus, then sac it 1-2 times to have the mana for a cunning-brainfreeze.

So, what was the problem?  

[Toad]

Control: Being able to trade counter for counter, card draw for card draw, they’re often left with nothing by the time you manage to combo off.

You could as well say "They are able to trade counter for counter, card draw for card draw, and often leave me with nothing by the time they manage to drop Psychatog".
No?

So, what was the problem?

Players that don't know how the stack works.

[Malhavoc]

So, what was the problem?

Players that don't know how the stack works.

Ok, sorry for the spam...  

[Matt]

No, it wasn't spam. I don't see why your solution wouldn't work. I think Toad means...well I don't know what Toad means.

[Purple Hat]

Toad means that the reason players take burn when using brainfreeze for their kill is that they don't know how the stack works so they don't think to stack the Salvager ability twice and avoid mana burn.

[Sammy]

I like the deck a lot, but after play testing I find it needs Yawgmoth's Will.

For instance, I was playing it against fish, we are on game three, and he is about to win. I have Salvager in play, and lotus in yard and I have nothing in hand. I topdeck brainstorm and draw into ass. I also have a Ancestrall Recall, Time Walk, and 2 other Brainstorms in my yard. Had I had a Yawgmoth's will I could have won there.

Also, I think there needs to be more ways to deal with Null Rod. With only one Disenchant, it can easily be countered. Maybe you could run some maindecked or atleast one more sideboarded.

[rvs]

Yawgmoth's will removes stuff from the game. That would sort of defeat the purpose of a salvager combo, now wouldn't it?

[Sammy]

No, no you don't win that turn, you set up for one that turn, In my case I could have drawn lots of cards, then Time Walked and possibly won.

[VGB]

Yawgmoth's will removes stuff from the game. That would sort of defeat the purpose of a salvager combo, now wouldn't it?

Will is the ultimate come-from-behind card.  Think of it as T1's Contract from Below.

If you ask me, even Dragon should play it.

[Dr. Sylvan]

Whoever moved this to Newbie, read the Mod Lounge. This thread is not to be moved.

[LotusHead]

Malhavoc wrote:

"Salvager in play, lotus in play.

Sac the lotus for WWW, use 2 mana to take it back (W floating), play it, sac for WWW, use the salvagers, and then use the salvager a second time in response on the same lotus, then draining away the floating WW; the first activation will be countered when it resolves, but who cares? I've drained away unneeded mana. This way I can cast how many times I want the lotus, then sac it 1-2 times to have the mana for a cunning-brainfreeze. "

So after you get the neccessary storm, and active Salvager/Lotus is it's own mana dump? All this time I had to be carefull with my mana against Sligh.  

I think Salvagers are about a month old now.  Happy Birthday Salvagers!  Keep the new tech, Stack, and Combat Tricks coming.
[/quote]

[AngryPheldagrif]

Brain Freeze: When I talk about Cunning Wish for the kill, 99% of the time it simply fetches Entomb for Pyrite Spellbomb. The Brain Freeze/Stroke of Genius is just for the extremely rare case that they Extract my Spellbomb or something. I was wrong about the Brain Freeze thing, but it doesn't make any difference for the situations I use them for. We totally forgot about stacking it, but it was such a marginal choice that we didn't pay much attention.

Yawgmoth's Will: Removing this card was the single hardest decision we made in playtesting. It really comes down to the fact that the advantage it adds is negligable compared to the drawbacks.

1. Its tempo disadvantage. Aside from Time Walk, it prevents you from going off that turn. This is effectively Time Walking yourself combowise.

2. It costs a hell of a lot of mana. Since I don't run Dark Ritual, and you can't recur Lotus, it's going to leave you tapped out at the bare minimum. This means you're going to giving your opponent a free turn to do whatever they want, under threat of only any Forces you've saved.

3. It doesn't even do that much. Sure Sammy would have loved to recast all those draw spells, and assumedly find something that can get the Spellbomb, but he would have won just the same if he had drawn a tutor or something. Yawgmoth's Will is just one of like a dozen cards that would have won you the game. And it's not even a guaranteed victory.

That's just too much negative for me to want it. Seeing to the fact that it's dead for a lot of the game, it's not something that this deck needs or wants right now. @VGB: I'm aware of how much you love this card, but the fact is that it really isn't Contract from Below when you have to spend all your mana and Time Walk yourself just to get anything out of it.

I'm going to edit the original post to reflect this.

Thanks for all the help guys!
-Dan

[VGB]

@VGB: I'm aware of how much you love this card, but the fact is that it really isn't Contract from Below when you have to spend all your mana and Time Walk yourself just to get anything out of it.

All valid points.  I never said the card wasn't situational - and the scenario you describe is very likely.  Ones that Sammy describe, however, are bound to be just as likely, especially in control-heavy metas.

That's really all I have to say on the matter - and yes, I've been reading up a lot on 5 color (mostly due to the recent BoW articles by Kowal and Toad).

[Vegeta2711]

Combo decks that roll to Wasteland. Soooo good.

Control: For the most part these are in you favor. Being able to trade counter for counter, card draw for card draw, they’re often left with nothing by the time you manage to combo off.

Actually using that logic, they'd have more useful cards left than you, since your win condition is minimum 2 cards.

Your also looking to get utterly stomped by Fish. Gradually over-extend? Maybe with horrible players, but your probably getting smashed by the Fish players with brains.

Basically, as you have stated, you have a Tog deck. Just instead of mr. teef you run a lousy 3rd color (You don't even run balance despite running white) and 6 slots for the win.

[AngryPheldagrif]

Combo decks that roll to Wasteland. Soooo good.

Control: For the most part these are in you favor. Being able to trade counter for counter, card draw for card draw, they’re often left with nothing by the time you manage to combo off.

Actually using that logic, they'd have more useful cards left than you, since your win condition is minimum 2 cards.

Your also looking to get utterly stomped by Fish. Gradually over-extend? Maybe with horrible players, but your probably getting smashed by the Fish players with brains.

Basically, as you have stated, you have a Tog deck. Just instead of mr. teef you run a lousy 3rd color (You don't even run balance despite running white) and 6 slots for the win.

It is indeed pretty similiar to Tog. Unlike Tog, however, I can win consistently by the fourth turn with counter backup.

As for the Fish matchup, I don't expect them to just run off and play their whole hand and give me the game on a silver platter. Just letting them resolve their early threats and start beating down gives me an opportunity to simply go off. Wastelands are painful, but we both lose a mana effectively. I don't fear their ability to reduce me to zero life before I can win.

-Dan

[Klep]

It is indeed pretty similiar to Tog. Unlike Tog, however, I can win consistently by the fourth turn with counter backup.

Last I checked Tog had a turn 4 goldfish.

[AngryPheldagrif]

It is indeed pretty similiar to Tog. Unlike Tog, however, I can win consistently by the fourth turn with counter backup.

Last I checked Tog had a turn 4 goldfish.

True, but that's if it's just working it's ass off to combo out ASAP. My turn 4 win is normal in many matchups. And that's with counter backup most of the time.

-Dan

[jpmeyer]

Tog's goldfish is slower than its in-game kill because it can't Drain anything against a goldfish.  When you get to Mana Drain an Auriok Salvagers, you have enough colorless that turn to cast Inuition, AK, and probably a Tog.

[AngryPheldagrif]

Tog's goldfish is slower than its in-game kill because it can't Drain anything against a goldfish.  When you get to Mana Drain an Auriok Salvagers, you have enough colorless that turn to cast Inuition, AK, and probably a Tog.

Well what happens when I Mana Drain a Tog into a Salvagers?
That speeds up my win quite a bit.

[yodoblec]

It's very much like Tog, excpet for the fact it tries to win in a flashy way which makes it fragile.

[jpmeyer]

Tog's goldfish is slower than its in-game kill because it can't Drain anything against a goldfish.  When you get to Mana Drain an Auriok Salvagers, you have enough colorless that turn to cast Inuition, AK, and probably a Tog.

Well what happens when I Mana Drain a Tog into a Salvagers?
That speeds up my win quite a bit.

You have creatures rather than cards like Deep Analysis in this deck.  You're the beatdown.

[AngryPheldagrif]

Tog's goldfish is slower than its in-game kill because it can't Drain anything against a goldfish.  When you get to Mana Drain an Auriok Salvagers, you have enough colorless that turn to cast Inuition, AK, and probably a Tog.

Well what happens when I Mana Drain a Tog into a Salvagers?
That speeds up my win quite a bit.

You have creatures rather than cards like Deep Analysis in this deck.  You're the beatdown.

How am I the beatdown exactly? Trinket Mage is both a tutor and a beatstick, but it's also in there to soak up some removal. People think I'm going beatdown when I, well, attack, but in truth I play as the control deck  through turn 4 against pretty much anything other than 4cControl. I see where you're coming from, but the Tog matchup is a lot more complicated then that. Often it just comes down to who goes first or gets the better draw.

It's very much like Tog, excpet for the fact it tries to win in a flashy way which makes it fragile.

Um, it's not flashy, it's a combo.


-Dan

[Bulls on Parade]

How am I the beatdown exactly? Trinket Mage is both a tutor and a beatstick, but it's also in there to soak up some removal.

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=3692

Based off the things you say, I'm going to have to infer you play with handicapped children. There's absolutely no player who would waste their only Swords/Edict/whatever form of removal on a Trinket Mage just because it's in play. If they see this card, they know for sure you're playing Salvagers, which happen to be better targets because they're actually relevant after they come into play.

Um, it's not flashy, it's a combo.

What he's saying is your list is essentially a bastardized tog list with a flashier kill condition. Tog is good because it's so streamlined- it draws cards until it finds an answer to a given obstacle and then rolls over the opponent because it's kill condition essentially requires no additional resources- it takes advantage of the fact that your sole objective for the first ~3 turns has been to set up dominant board position and gain tempo advantage. That's what makes the combo win condition "flashy"- it's needlessly more complicated (read: requires more specific components) than Tog.

Well what happens when I Mana Drain a Tog into a Salvagers?
That speeds up my win quite a bit.

Tog outdraws all over your face- they'll probably even end up abusing your AK's more than you because the Tog deck has a superior strategy to what you're trying to accomplish in setting up your combo.

While I'm posting, I'll go ahead and ask why on earth you're playing Black if you aren't going to play Tog? You'd be better off with more REB's in the side over Duress, the 2 tutors aren't worth splashing another color, and you won't have to run the worst manabase ever. I came up with my own list from scratch that abused the b0rkenness of basic lands in utilizing not only some Islands but even a Plains! 6 Fetches coupled with 23 Mana sources (LED really doesn't count) isn't so spectacular either. I'd rather see and play a deck with Gorilla Shaman maindeck for sure.

As far as the seeming haphazardly constructed sideboard goes, how many of the one-of "wishables" do you actually wish for? If you made a stronger presence in red of +2 REB's sideboard you might be able to play to win vs. Hulk rather than play to hold them off a turn or two. Honestly, how often do you wish for some of these cards? I made a sideboard containing 3 Exalted Angels and 3 Meddling Mages, and I'm not going to advocate that plan here but I will throw it out for discussion.

[jpmeyer]

You can also look at it in the control match as a Tog deck that is running 7 Togs--and then remember that ideally, Tog likes to SB down to like 2 Togs against control.

[AngryPheldagrif]

Tog is dead. Why would you compare this up-and-coming contender to an obsolete deck that rolls over to crap like Sui?

[MrZuccinniHead]

i wouldn't say tog is dead.  There were tog builds in the top 8.  I have never truely been a fan of tog myself, but it definitely isn't dead.  There is a new set coming out in feburary with a host of new oppurtunites for tog and otherwise unknown decks.

[AngryPheldagrif]

i wouldn't say tog is dead.  There were tog builds in the top 8.  I have never truely been of tog myself, but it definitely isn't dead.  There is a new set coming out in feburary with a host of new oppurtunites.

The new set will be filled with new Fish, 4cControl, and Salvager cards. Maybe even a bone or 2 for Slaver and Stax, but nothing for Tog. Tog is dead. Any Tog decks in the top 8 must have gotten lucky with their matchups and not have had to play against Sui or even Ankh Sligh.

[goober]

Tog is dead. Why would you compare this up-and-coming contender to an obsolete deck that rolls over to crap like Sui?

Because Tog is strictly better than this deck, even though it rolls to Sui (blatently false).

You suffer from every problem Tog does, plus your deck is far more diluted.  Trinket Mage is jank, and Tog can use that slot for Duress or Deep Anal which are far more helpful.