[Deck] Team DD presents: Salvagers v3.0.dec

[Vegeta2711]

Tog is dead. Why would you compare this up-and-coming contender to an obsolete deck that rolls over to crap like Sui?

When faced with reasonable arguements and logic, it's obvious what the anwser shall be... totally pointless cheap shots at a superior deck and JP.

Oh yes, that's definitely the way to make people believe this big 'ol pile of shit that wishes it was tog or rector is any good.

[AngryPheldagrif]

Tog is dead. Why would you compare this up-and-coming contender to an obsolete deck that rolls over to crap like Sui?

When faced with reasonable arguements and logic, it's obvious what the anwser shall be... totally pointless cheap shots at a superior deck and JP.

Oh yes, that's definitely the way to make people believe this big 'ol pile of shit that wishes it was tog or rector is any good.

[edit]: I'm not going to let this thread become a flamewar. Call it whatever you want, but if you're not going to add anything then just don't say anything.

[edit2]: I'm not being holier than thou, I'm just stopping myself from losing my e-temper and making another useless post. You can do whatever you want. Your post has been reported.

[Vegeta2711]

Just sinking down to your level friend.

For a Vintage Adept, you sure add a lot the discussion!

For someone who's deck deserves to be in the n00b forum, you sure managed enough bitching/begging to leave it in open!

And back on topic for a sec. you still haven't mentioned how Waste and/or Null Rod doesn't utterly trash the deck.

EDIT:  :lol:    Now after the flame we try to play the holier than thou card. So cute.

[Sammy]

For Null Rod I guess you hopefully counter it, Duress it, or Wish for Disenchant. Or you can just always hope they dont drop anything else and beat with salvager/Trinket Mage.

As for wasteland, I dont know, possibly run Crucible/Strips ?

Heh, as for the above, you can pretty much just put that in any deck.

[AngryPheldagrif]

you still haven't mentioned how Waste and/or Null Rod doesn't utterly trash the deck.

Wastelands are indeed painful, but I rarely worry about losing a land or 2 unless they can resolve a Crucible lock. At bare minimum I've got my single fetchable Island, and I'm packed with mana artifacts.

As for Null Rod, It is indeed a really painful card. I have 10 ways to keep it out of play (8 counters and 2 Duress), but if they can resolve it then all I can really do is Cunning Wish for a removal spell. Like most combo, Null Rod is a hellish card to face. Unlike most combo, I've got a ton of ways to prevent it from resolving and at least a sprinkling of removal.

-Dan

PS: Looks like I'm partially Sarnath'd by Sammy. Yes kids it happens on the 'Drain too

[Vegeta2711]

So really, why is this deck better than Tog again?  

It's like the same deck, but with a worse 3rd color and a lot more taken slots for a win condition.

[GodzillA]

I'm going to ask this as directly as I possibly can: what in your opinion makes this deck better than Tog?

On a fundamental level, they're the exact same deck with different kill conditions. It seems widely agreed that you have a weaker manabase and that your kill condition gets hosed by Null Rod. Tog doesn't have these problems. You also have less draw than Tog. So now that we've identified what makes the deck worse than Tog, can you tell us what makes it better?

[Toad]

The real question is : How is this deck better than ReapLace?

Your combo engine is Auriok Salvager and Trinket Mage.
ReapLace's combo engine is Reap and Prismatic Lace.
That's 4cc and 3cc sorcery speed spells vs 2cc and 1 cc instants.

[AngryPheldagrif]

I'm going to ask this as directly as I possibly can: what in your opinion makes this deck better than Tog?

On a fundamental level, they're the exact same deck with different kill conditions. It seems widely agreed that you have a weaker manabase and that your kill condition gets hosed by Null Rod. Tog doesn't have these problems. You also have less draw than Tog. So now that we've identified what makes the deck worse than Tog, can you tell us what makes it better?

I couldn't tell you for sure whether or not this deck is better than Hulk until I get a chance to take it to some decent tournaments, which probably won't be for a while.

My deck is indeed hosed by Null Rod. As are a lot of T1 decks. I could say the same thing that Tog is hosed by Damping Matrix, but I know that it sees a lot less play. Overall, I would like my deck because in winning I am more consistent than Tog. Anyone can get hosed, that's why they're called hate cards. But my deck ignores pretty much any obstacle. Nothing short of the hate cards previously mentioned can stop me. I can even go off under things like Tormod's Crypt and Planar Void.

The matchup against Tog is indeed a vicious one. In testing it went both ways. I'd like to steer the discussion away from the Tog match and more, as I have been focusing on, the matchups against other decks. I can say with a high degree of certainty that my Fish matchup is better than Tog.

Also, as a final note, you're wrong when you say that this and Tog are the same at a fundamental level. In the end, despite how various matchups are played out, Tog is still control and Salvagers is still combo. Does it look similiar on paper? Yes. Does it play out that way? Not in the least bit. Well, except for the Draw-7 and Belcher matchups

-Dan

PS (since Toad posted while I was typing):

The real question is : How is this deck better than ReapLace?

Your combo engine is Auriok Salvager and Trinket Mage.
ReapLace's combo engine is Reap and Prismatic Lace.
That's 4cc and 3cc sorcery speed spells vs 2cc and 1 cc instants.

Well,
#1: Trinket Mage is not part of the 'engine'. It's just a tutor that happens to loan you a free beatstick.

#2: Reap+Reap+Lace+Lace+Lotus+Win condition happens to be a 6-card combo. Not so amazing. In contrast, I'm a 3 card combo: Salvagers+Lotus+Win condition.

#3: Reaplace's combo pieces are weak on their own. Reap is useless unless they have black, and Prismatic Lace doesn't really do anything outside of comboing. In contrast, Salvagers can at very least beat and pull back any artifacts I've lost, while the Spellbomb can either cantrip or spot-removal weenies.

#4: Reaplace takes up an average of 8 spaces for the combo, while I only use 5. **note** Too everyone who says I use 6 or 7 cards for the combo, Lotus and LED do have this neat ability about adding mana to your pool, something that is often good.

#5: We know ReapLace isn't a good deck. That's why no one plays it right now. It's obsolete. Salvagers at least has shown the potential to win, and Lotushead has beaten multiple Tier 1 and 2 decks in tournaments with his sub-par version (not a jab at him, he only owns 2 Mana Drains).

**Another note** The above list was based on the assumption that you were seriously comparing this to ReapLace. The internet has this unfortunate thing about relaying sarcasm, so I couldn't tell for sure.

[Toad]

#2: Reap+Reap+Lace+Lace+Lotus+Win condition happens to be a 6-card combo. Not so amazing. In contrast, I'm a 3 card combo: Salvagers+Lotus+Win condition.

Intuition + Prismatic Lace + Prismatic Lace is a three card combo.

Both decks use the same basis, a recursion spell, a Lotus to generate infinite mana and a couple of enablers / tutors.

* Intuition is far better than Trinket Mage since It dumps your recursion engine in your hand + graveyard for the kill. It also gets Accumulated Knowledge. It also reusable with your recursion engine.

* Reap is better than Auriok Salvager since It is instant speed, costs half the Salvager's casting cost, and can recur whatever you want (hint hint : Time Walk, Ancestral Recall, Demonic Tutor).

* ReapLace does not die to Null Rod or Damping Matrix. You don't even need Black Lotus to kill your opponent (just keep taking recurring Time Walk + Fire/Ice).

* ReapLace's mana base is better than yours. Especially since Reap can bring back some fetchlands if you really need lands.

Salvagers at least has shown the potential to win, and Lotushead has beaten multiple Tier 1 and 2 decks in tournaments with his sub-par version.

I did beat multiple Tier 1 and Tier 2 decks in tournaments with ReapLace a couple of monthes ago. Just check the tourney forum for my report. I'm still playing the deck for fun on Apprentice and keep posting good results. That does not mean the deck is good.

Oh, and yeah, that was sarcasm. I know ReapLace blows.

[Purple Hat]

I played against this deck, or at least someone playing salvagers combo in round 8 in richmond.  

He actually didn't do anything in either game.  I think he might have killed a creature in game one with his spellbomb...Game two I basically won on turn one with a chalice for 0.  By the time my crucible hit it was just over.  It seems to me that this deck is slow enough to have a problem with fast aggro that most type one combo decks don't have.  I say this from playing against the deck and seeing it do NOTHING for two whole games while it vainly fought to stay alive in the face of my creatures.  I know my decks pretty good, but I really wasn't playing well at that point and my deck wasn't giving me it's best in that round.  Combo decks shouldn't be inconsistent enough to lose to aggro decks on turn 5 or 6.  That's a bad sign for any combo deck.

[Bram]

The real question is: why would I play this? I know I sound like Smmenen when I say this, but surely you realise there are more optimal combo decks out there. Now that's not a problem ofcourse; some of us play for the sake of playing and like to build innovative decks and tweak them so that they're the best they can be, but please don't go around comparing them to superior decktypes just to make a name for yourself.

When the RectorTrix combo first reared its head in T1 (before Tendrils was used as a Rector kill), I designed a deck that replaced Illusions/Donate with Cadaverous Bloom / Drain Life. The idea was that once you had the Bargain, you could easily use your handsize as a weapon. Now in certain niche situations, this was decent. Every once in a while, it saved me where Illusions/ Donate could not. I even go as far as saying it was a shitload more fun to play, if only to see the looks on people's faces when I played a Caddy Bloom. But I never claimed to be on to the Next Big Thing, or even made statements like yours, claiming the deck would be competitive. I *knew* my design was crap, and didn't bother pursuing it. You seem to think your design isn't, fair enough, but why would we believe you with only 1 decent tourney result to go by and your promise that some big team is looking at it?

[Bulls on Parade]

That's a sig-worthy quote if I ever saw one:

Tog is dead. Why would you compare this up-and-coming contender to an obsolete deck that rolls over to crap like Sui?

Oh my goodness. You just posted that Tog was a dead deck on your Intuition/AK engine Auriok Salvagers thread. I got news for you chief, if Tog is dead then this deck sure as hell isn't going anywhere. Sure there's been a steady decline in Tog but that's because 4cC is better. This isn't better, and that's the big difference. I definitely have faith in the concept but the lists you present are so god-awful it's like you single handedly drive the archetype into the ground and keep people away. PLEASE just don't make another 6 threads until you do some real testing, hell I'll even test with you because I guess you can't find half decent players to play with based on your card analyses. Everyone's right so far- there's absolutely no reason to play this LIST outside of a powered casual environment. That doesn't mean by any stretch however that the card won't find it's place in competitive Type One- I truly think something will come from it. It truly seems like it won't be one of your lists though.

why would we believe you with only 1 decent tourney result to go by and your promise that some big team is looking at it?

I haven't seen this decent tourney result, but I have seen a report from an 8 person tourney where the deck in question played only aggro. Also, didn't Triple_S or someone take a Salvagers deck to Richmond?

[Gabethebabe]

If I were a Mod then I would close this thread

[Kowal]

Zherbus promised we wouldn't touch it.

[DEA]

tog is a ONE card frigging combo
cards in hand + tog = WIN

who gives a damn about turn 1 planar void? or tormod's crypt?
just go ahead and wish for berserk, remove in response to the triggers and berserk for 20
i presume the point about the void and crypt was about tog, but it's only valid if you're talking about extended tog
guess what? we're not playing extended

there are plenty of things that screw this deck up, other than null rod and crypt etc
coffin purge? chalice for ZERO? damping matrix?
seriously, yes, you have force/drain/duress blah blah but unless you're playing with an idiot that doesn't know how to bait counters properly, don't expect that critical hoser not to resolve

i expect this to have a bad matchup against suicide, actually :lol:

[Kowal]

Yeah actually.  Withered Wretch hoses this pile.

Even dead archetypes have no problem beating this thing.  For example, fucking sligh goldfishes faster, AND it can burn out the Salvager with little difficulty (usually with only one burn spell!  how good!)  Why go over real decks that already have been discussed as kicking the everloving snot out of you when we can go in to detail about the bad ones?  That's way more fun!

Even 9 land stompy maindecked Null Rod.  And coincidentally, your manabase is perfectly set up for River Boa beats.  You even help them in the damage race with your high fetch count and high city of brass count.  How good!

Ooh, and I also noticed how bad WW will hose you.

And if Parfait gets to drop Aura of Silence, you can't really win anymore.  Not that you had a shot anyway.

There are SO MANY different options of what to be using in the type one world.  Why in the name of all that is good are you trying to build a slow, awkward combo deck that's vulnerable to quite literally EVERY form of hate, and can't win through it like Dragon can?

Let's leave Tog out of the picture.  My final point is that you're using ReapLace's draw engine, but you have no way to recur your AKs.  Oops!  You're playing bad ReapLace.  ReapLace with no decent recursion, just as many dead slots, and a vulnerability to creature removal.

[LotusHead]

My Auriok Salvagers deck, a Combo Control build (the first on TMD as far as I know, but I could be wrong) was subjected to about two weeks of criticism (like this and earlier AngryPheldagrif Salvager.Dec threads.)  I took that criticism to heard (Ie, ignored almost all of it except the GOOD IDEAS that said criticism produced, and took out SHARED FATE and CONJURER's BAUBLE and a few more cards.  I replaced them with frikkin Chromatic Sphere's and Spellbombs.)

I then took it to a tournament in a field of 19 players.  Fully Powered players (or at least using the appropriate netdeck) and I wont 4-0. (ok, 5-0 with my bye.). Then I took it to another tournament and won 2-1 in UNLIMITED PROXY. I did not proxy. I played with my 2 Mana Drains and no Ancestral Recall.  Check tourny results for play by play.  

That is 6-1 in a fully powered/andor unlimited proxy environment.

My deck did NOT simply roll over and die (except to 7/10, but AngryPheldagrif's Salvagers deck is almost completely unaffected by it, judging from his decklist).

The Auriok Salvagers/Lotus/LED/Spellbomb/CunningWish/TrinketMage Control Combo deck has a short game (ie Win before they know what to do) and a long game (counter anything relevant, then combo off for the win).

Instead of asking "why play this instead of Tog" ask yourself "why not just play Tog forever".

The Metagame is NOT just 4cc and Tog.  Everyone will have to deal with Salvagers at some point.

Of all the flamers out there, only one (I belive) has talked about actual experience with their duels against Salvager decks.  Were those decks like AngryPheldagriff's?  Keep the details specific.  Even 6-1 Salvager Tourney Champions like me need step by step details for analysis.

So Salvagers are "held off for now" my Null Rod.  Most decks using artifacts are.  That's why Null Rod is a hate card.  Salvager's must learn to adapt.  

Try posing QUESTIONS of actual reasonable situations and ask "What would Salvagers do..."  We already know what Tog would do. We know what 4cc would do.  Those decks are relatively established.  Put the question to us (Salvager designers/supporters), What can we do about it?

Complaining about the Salvager's Combo only says one thing: No one in your Meta has f-d you over with Salvagers yet.

Out here, people have to play very, very careful. (Yes, playing Null Rods help.  Do YOU play Null Rods in YOUR deck of choice?)

Note:  This post is only trying to steer the thread into a productive direction.  I ask all of you nay-sayers to check out the Newbie site where most of AngryPheldagrif's and my Salvager threads/reports are. If you haven't tested AGAINST this deck yet, fix the situation.  

Whew.  

postscript: AngryPheldagrif was one of the early "naysayers' of my original Salvagers build, but after ACTUALLY testing against me, he saw that A: I kicked his ASS against whatever the first deck he played against me was. and B: I put up a good control fight to make sure he really really REALLY had to work hard to kill me. (in this case, Draw 7, of which my build has not lost a game out of the 4 that I played in real life against 2 different people).

Okay, he kicked MY build several times.  But not established deck archetypes. (Hey, this build is like a month old.)

PostPostScript: Mods, I feel all of this needed to be said.  This is a new deck type.  Please be patient with the work going on here.

[Purple Hat]

I honestly have no idea if the deck I played was similar to angrypheldagriphs.  When I say he did nothing I mean he did NOTHING.  It was like I was goldfishing with the exception of a single spellbomb and some random stuff getting forced.  I think he played some standstills which I just ignored because I was too busy WINNING THE GAME.  If you're playing a control deck and people feel like they are goldfishing when they play you you're doing something wrong.  If you're playing a combo deck and people who aren't can out goldfish you you're doing something wrong.  So in short the reason I'm not adding this to my gauntlet is that I didn't think it was good before I played against it and I'm even less impressed with it now that I've done so.  I'm not trying to start a flame war here but you asked me to say more about the deck I played against and all I can say was that it was like playing against a bad control deck.  Combo is a problem matchup for my deck and yet I was still able to just roll salvagers.  

Here is my question:  How do you address the fact that I was playing extremely badly with a sub-optimal build of an aggro deck that wasn't really supplying threats to me at a very good pace and yet I was able to out goldfish your "control-combo" deck?

[DEA]

what i can say is : you're both right, and you're also wrong at the same time
you can't use a single series of games with an opponent of undetermined skill sets to assess if a deck is truly viable or not

until salvagers.dec makes a strong showing in a tournament with established GOOD players, it's impossible to tell if it is indeed better than it looks on paper

which i think it should at the very least be, given that it looks like crap to me

[wonkey_donkey]

Complaining about the Salvager's Combo only says one thing: No one in your Meta has f-d you over with Salvagers yet.

...

AngryPheldagrif was one of the early "naysayers' of my original Salvagers build, but after ACTUALLY testing against me, he saw that A: I kicked his ASS against whatever the first deck he played against me was. and B: I put up a good control fight to make sure he really really REALLY had to work hard to kill me. (in this case, Draw 7, of which my build has not lost a game out of the 4 that I played in real life against 2 different people).

Okay, he kicked MY build several times.  But not established deck archetypes. (Hey, this build is like a month old.)

Mods, I feel all of this needed to be said.  This is a new deck type.  Please be patient with the work going on here.

I feel that this is a slightly naive way of looking at things. The "work going on here" has been, as ever, reduced to very little, and has hence ceased to become work. I personally don't think much of the deck myself, but then again I haven't tested with it or against it, so I am fully prepared to admit that I am looking at it from what could be an unfair angle. I think that the reason that people have become, shall we say, more abrasive than usual is that when people suggest things they are usually ignored or dismissed as being irrelevant. Personally I think that Bram's reply has been comfortably the most worthwhile thing said on this thread, as it was well thought-out and put across the viewpoint of many in a well-written and civil manner.

You also seem to be leaping to AngryPheldagriff's defence due to loyalty for the deck's idea rather than anything else. You say that your list and this one have different strengths and weaknesses, but you don't really point out how the decks are different or better/worse than eachother. You can't claim to be doing this through testing, as some of your testing results are showed in the quote above - you say that your deck beats draw7, for one thing. You may have not lost a game out of 4 games, but that is not a very large test sample, is it? I am personally working on a deck at home, but I've only so far managed to play a few sporadic matches with dragon, hulk, draw7 and a powerful (but still needing tuning) workshop aggro deck. Altogether I've probably played about 15 matches, give or take, but until I've played at least 50 matches I wouldn't even think about putting the deck on here for criticism, as people are well within their rights to rip it to shreds if I can't back up rebuttals to criticism without some sort of evidence.

You also imply by your post that those who reject a deck out of hand are automatically wrong. Because people haven't tested a deck, that doesn't mean that they are necessarily worthless regarding their views on the deck. This deck needs some sort of evidence to suggest that it would be worthwhile to pick up, let alone be competetive - and a 19-player tournament with no information about the other players is insufficient. If you can get the deck on Dr Sylvan's lists, that is a very good start for the deck on it's path to gain the respect that the creators believe it deserves. Until then it's a non-starter, in most cases.

I hope this doesn't come across as a personal attack, as it is not intended to. However, I am merely trying to stress that this thread needs to get back on track before any work can be done on the deck, and that Bram's post needs answering - why indeed would I want to play this? Evidence of testing and tournament results are needed to convince anyone, let alone the deck's critics.

Tom

[Kowal]

Lotushead:  I just re-read your report.

Must be -really- fucking difficult to outplay the bye and three aggro decks that went out of style two years ago.   Seeing as your only other matchup was u/g madness, I can't say you've proven anything.  You even went to game three against everything!

[Whatever Works]

I really like the fact taht FINALLY somebody posted a new decklist. I have heard several rumors (maybe thats all they are) that several teams are working on a similar deck. Perhaps alot of the harsh critisism is to try to keep tech from being revealed, or perhaps im talking out of my arse (which is probably the case.)

The reason the conversation is coming up comparing the deck to tog, is because the deck is very close to tog with a different kill that takes more cards. I personally like the deck, but the people have a fairly good arguement. I have played the deck for a little while and have a good understanding of how it works (not going to say im an expert or anything of the like), but i was wondering if your team has tried any other draw engines or deck set ups???

The deck has several ways it could go you went for the tog setup, but i was thinking perhaps you could of gone a more Draw7 engine that could possibly help you draw into the lotus, or help the combo go off more successfully. The deck is esentially a 2 card combo (3 counting kill), and perhaps could make the deck faster. With a a modified draw 7 engine the salvagers combo might ... might... work better then Tendrils or maybe u could fit 1 dendrils or brain freeze in as an alternate kill.

I cant say that doing that is the best idea (or even a good one), but i dont think the combo can be that great in a tog engine (though it has worked for you.) Are you concerned with the high number of Null rods that will be seeing play, because that card alone can just stall the deck several turns?

This deck has a lot of potential and i believe a version of it is being made in type 2 accept with Krark Klan Ironworks (sp?) The best type 2 decks have consistently been transformed successfully into type 1, and this deck could do the same. The only type 1 deck in recent memory that dominated type 2 and not type 1 is Replenish (the best card in the game yet to be broken.)

[VGB]

The only type 1 deck in recent memory that dominated type 2 and not type 1 is Replenish (the best card in the game yet to be broken.)

Ever heard of Pandeburst?  Replenish is just sucky in T1, until they print a card that says "put an enchantment that wins the game into your graveyard and Replenish into your hand from your library".

And the key card to that deck is Intuition, just like it is to this one.  I think this deck needs to start with a playset of Intuitions (either main or 1 wishboarded) and Trinket Mages, but that's just me.

And people should stop comparing Trinket Mage to Togs 5-7/8, because it's a frickin tutor for the win.

[Toad]

My final point is that you're using ReapLace's draw engine, but you have no way to recur your AKs.  Oops!  You're playing bad ReapLace.  ReapLace with no decent recursion, just as many dead slots, and a vulnerability to creature removal.

Ben I want to do anal sex with you.

[Whatever Works]

Intuition is a key card in the deck their is no question about it, but the rest of the draw engine doesnt seem as critical. The combo is very easy to hate out, and making it faster and a little more consistent might be the proper way to go. The deck in a way plays like dragon in the fact that it doesnt have to go off immedietly, but then again if the combo is stopped you dont lose all your permenants. So making the deck faster might be a good way to go.

[Toad]

And people should stop comparing Trinket Mage to Togs 5-7/8, because it's a frickin tutor for the win.

Fabricate is better since It is not hit by Stifle. Unless you rely on a 2/2 for blocking or beatdowning, but then that means your deck blows.

[VGB]

Fabricate is better since It is not hit by Stifle. Unless you rely on a 2/2 for blocking or beatdowning, but then that means your deck blows.

That is the weakest argument I have ever heard.  Fabricate is strictly crappier than Trinket Mage in this deck, as it doesn't chump or beatdown and can't find anything the Mage can't.

Stifle is a non-argument, since it is hardly a game-breaker to Stifle a mage.

[Eastman]

Why not just spend your 3W on rector ?

[Kowal]

Or if you'd like to stick with the losing to grave hate theme, Replenish.  Then you don't lose to Swords.  I love how even Replenish is better than this deck.