Type 1.5 Banning Campaign

[MoggIntellect]

Hi Vintage players,

I appeal to your sense of a good game to help us change the Wizards Type 1.5 Banned policy.

Right now, the 1.5 Banned list is based on the Type 1 environment, and the results have been disasterous for Type 1.5.  Some cards have been banned in 1.5 because they were abused by the powered Type 1 environment, which 1.5 is not.  Would they ban cards in Type 1 based on Extended?  Of course not!  So why are they basing the 1.5 Banned list on the Type 1 environment?

Please take the time to email Wizards, and have your friends email Wizards, and beg them to change the Type 1.5 Banned policy, so that it is separate from Type 1.

[Jebus]

This is the wrong forum. *edit*And now it's in the right forum.

This isn't a new problem, but there isn't much that can be done about it.

[VGB]

You're going to have to try harder than that.

You should probably elucidate on the following:

1) What cards are banned from 1.5 that should be allowed?

Examples:
Fact or Fiction (iffy with 4 x Mana Drain)
Frantic Search (just keep Tolarian banned)
Stroke of Genius (again, kinda abusive with Mana Drain)
Demonic Consultation (in redundant decks this is strictly better than DT, so I'm not sure about this one)
Burning Wish (with Will banned, this isn't all that abusive)
Crop Rotation (see Frantic Search - except Bazaar is fun in 1.5)
Lion's Eye Diamond (was Madness any good in 1.5?)
Voltaic Key (why was this ever restricted???)

2) Why is it worth it to Wizards/DCI to spend time and energy monitoring yet another format?  1.5 has heretofore been simple - if any card is too good, simply restrict it and the problem goes away forever - and T1 is less likely to abuse it to boot.

I'd like to see Mind's Desire legal because that would get me hot to play 1.5, but the thing is just too damn broken, unfortunately.  

[MoggIntellect]

I am finding out that the Magic community will not really join me.  This is obvious.  It's funny that when Rebecca Guay gets fired because her art is too girlie, the people emailed WotC and got her back, yet something as important as this to the game, and people are apathetic.

It is an old problem, but how long do you live with an old problem before you take action.  I got sick of reading scrubby postings on the Brainburst Type 1.5 Deck Strategy board.  I'm talking Blue Control without Mana Drains, or some stupid Rebel Deck that didn't use Swords to Plowshares.  There's just a bunch of casual players on that board, and it got me quite frustrated.  I think Type 1.5 is one of the best environments.  It has the second largest card pool, but without the influence of power it could become so wide open and varied that it'd be so much fun to play.  Yet the current Banned policy leaves it stale and kind of the red-headed step child of Magic, and it really should be one of the most vibrant formats.

Next year Extended will rotate out 3 blocks, that's 9 sets gone in the blink of an eye.  I think this will alienate a lot of players from their favourite format.  All the staples of so many years will be gone once more, only to lose some staples like Cursed Scroll and Masticore will seriously disappoint many players.  I think this is a good chance for Type 1.5 to step up and be a great format where you don't have to have power to play with the cards you always liked playing with.  Black, missing for so long from Extended, could be strong again with Dark Ritual not being Banned.  Anything that keeps people playing Magic is something Wizards should look into, and invest time and energy into.

As to listing the cards  that should be unbanned, it is a little up to debate, and uncertain.  I don't pretend to know exactly which cards should be banned and which shouldn't.   I think they should stick to only banning cards and no restrictions.  I think that's good for the format.

Here's my opinion of cards that could possibly be brought back to Type 1.5:

Braingeyser - Could get abusive, but I think this is less dangerous than Stroke.
Burning Wish - Simply no reason not to unban this card
Chaos Orb - omg did I just suggest that?  Although it's a rulings nightmare, it'd be interesting to see what life would be like in an Orbed environment.  
Fact or Fiction - no brainer as far as I'm concerned.
Fastbond - I'm not sure about this one.  I don't know how abusive this could get.
Fork - In an environment that allows 4 x Berserk, I think 4 x Fork could be tested.  Without access to artifact mana, the RR would be more difficult to pay for.
Gush - I think this card is good but not abusive.
Lotus Petal - With little other 0 cc art mana, I think this one is safe to allow.
Mind's Desire - I think it is on the line... could this dominate the 1.5 format?  At least let it try.
Regrowth - Without the abusive power cards from Type 1, this is a good, but not broken card.
Vampiric Tutor - On top of the library is simply not as good as in your hand.  I would not even look at Demonic Consultation before allowing this card.  Consult is far more broken than this card is.
Voltaic Key - as aforementioned by someone above, why wouldn't you unban this?

That is my brief list of initially what I'd like to see unbanned.  I would maybe go as far as to unban Demonic Tutor.  Without the plethora of fast mana, could this simply be too slow for the environment to require banning, or would it simply be just a great staple card?  I have the feeling that Type 1.5 would be fast.

I hope all that post here will at least attempt to help change the policy.

[Matt]

Suggestions like letting players have unrestricted Gush AND unrestricted Fastbond are what makes Wizards not take these pleas seriously. I won't even start on Mind's Desire or, worse yet, Chaos Orb.

Everyone who wants these lists seperated always makes some really lamebrained suggestion for what to unban.

[rvs]

There's no real reason for the DCI (or wizards) to really care about 1.5, since there are FAR, FAR less 1.5 tournaments than T1 tournaments. And there are not a lot of T1 tournaments compared to say, Standard.

[MoggIntellect]

The unbanning of Gush and Fastbond are simply ideas.  I'd rather see them banned because of the 1.5 format than the Type 1 format.  That is all we are trying to say here.

As for the attitude that it isn't popular so why bother... in that case let's start to ignore Type 1 and see how much fun it is to play after several years.  The whole point is that it isn't played because of this policy.

Anyway, for those who support the cause, please fill out the petiton at this web site:

http://www.geocities.com/michaelrdolan/VintageMagic.html

I understand that coming to a Type 1 website asking people to care about 1.5 is like asking Type 2 players to care about Type 1, but I had hoped it would be different.

[Ric_Flair]

I think you underestimate how much we care.  I also think that you are relatively uneducated on the campaign that has gone on for a long time, albeit at a low level.  I wrote this piece about 6 months ago:

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=6190

 and I got some DCI response on each of the issues except the 1.5 thing.  I think that the big issue that 1.5 and Type 1 are TOO similar.  There is really nothing about 1.5 that is better than Type 1 except affordability, and with the rise in power of Workshop and Bazaar and the price increase of Mana Drain, this argument is sounding a little hollow.  People have tried before, but until there is a huge ground swell of support in the form of tournament participation, nothing will happen.

[rvs]

@MoggIntelect: My post wasn't meant to point out that I disagree with you. I agree, as I've said in numerous threads that have been going on about this subject. What I'm saying is quite similar to what Ric just said.
For the DCI, there is no reason to change anything since noone cares. I think the first step in getting a seperate b/r list is to prove that is in fact is an entirely different format, and not just t1 without all (okay fine, MOST of) the expensive cards and tutor effects.

[jpmeyer]

The biggest problem with changing the 1.5 banning list is that you have no baseline to go off, so you can't really figure out what power level you want to go with.  Despite not having Moxes and whatnot, because of the large number of non-banned cards in Extended that were restricted in Type 1, that format was faster than Type 1 for a few years.

[MoggIntellect]

Ric - you're right, I *am* uneducated when it comes to 1.5.  To be honest, I have had a lot of difficulty in trying to find people to play the format with.  I'm just fed up with trying to find people who are intersted in what I think is really the best format, for the reasons you said in your article (very good).

Restricting cards is horrible, just as you see in Yu-Gi-Oh!, where restricted cards are normal.  The player who draws the restricted card gets a huge advantage over those who don't draw it, and the better the card the more the advantage.  Furthermore, sometimes the advantage can be abused over and over via graveyard manipulation, making the advantage even greater.

I'm not trying to say I know 1.5 format very well, rather, I just want to see something done about it.  How can you see a groundswell of support for a format that is unsupported?  I think this is a perfect time to begin to campaign for it.  With the Extended rotation about one year away a lot of people will be looking to continue to use their Masticores and Cursed Scrolls.  It's a good chance to create interest in the format.

[MarkPharaoh]

I am finding out that the Magic community will not really join me. This is obvious. It's funny that when Rebecca Guay gets fired because her art is too girlie, the people emailed WotC and got her back, yet something as important as this to the game, and people are apathetic.

Because Wizards and the DCI can't[/color] give 2 shits for 1.5?

[GodzillA]

Right now, the 1.5 Banned list is based on the Type 1 environment, and the results have been disasterous for Type 1.5.  Some cards have been banned in 1.5 because they were abused by the powered Type 1 environment, which 1.5 is not.  Would they ban cards in Type 1 based on Extended?  Of course not!  So why are they basing the 1.5 Banned list on the Type 1 environment?

You're actually working against several problems with this thread. The first is that you've posted this petition at a site dedicated solely to Type 1. The vast majority of the players here at TMD couldn't give two shits about Type 1.5, because any issues pertaining to that format have no bearing whatsoever on the format they're actually interested in. You can solve this first problem by discussing such things at a forum dedicated to the appropriate format, which would be The Source.

The second and more important problem you face is that your argument is completely flawed. The banned list in 1.5 is by its very definition inextricably tied to Type 1's Restricted List. It is the very gauge by which the acceptable power levels of cards are measured for 1.5's healthiness as a format. Without it, judgements of that nature would be purely arbitrary. Furthermore, the cards you suggested as possible candidates for unbanning in 1.5 clearly belie your lack of knowledge of the format. Lotus Petal, Gush, Fastbond, Fact or Fiction and Vampiric Tutor would utterly decimate the format if unrestricted. All of the cards which you suggested that wouldn't necessarily be completely detrimental to the format are the ones which are widely agreed to be unnecessarily on the T1 Restriction List in the first place (e.g., Fork, Braingeyser, etc.)

Unfortunately I can offer no remedy for the second problem, short of suggesting that you actual play 1.5 at a tournament level, and learn more about it. Frankly I'm rather surprised that you're pursuing this issue with such fervor when you have so very little actual knowledge of the format.

[MoggIntellect]

It's funny.  No matter how much I warn people I don't know what I'm talking about, or how much I try to temper my words with warnings, people still lambaste me.  Now I know how politicians feel when they get soundbites used that are out of context.

Yeah, I'm going at this with fervor, because I am so tired of 1.5 not getting supported.  I used to run tournaments and for Type 1.5 everyone would grumble.  They said it was boring because it's just "unpowered" Type 1, when really it isn't.

I really believe that 1.5 would be better served with its own independent Banned list.  Simple as that.  Change is something most Magic players don't like, but it is a good thing.  I think no harm can come to 1.5 by a close monitoring and a Banned list based on those observations, based on that environment.  Only good can come of it.

What amazes me more than anything is not only the sheer apathy I have received, but the amount of vehemence I have faced.  I have twice been disillusioned by the MTG "community".  The first time was when I got cards ripped... I couldn't believe that one player would steal anothers cards... and this is the second time.  I sometimes forget that this isn't a "community" rather just a  group of people who play some game.  They aren't nicer or more supportive because of a common interest, and perhaps due to the competative nature of the game, many turn out to be complete jerks.  (Please note, this will bring a firestorm of flames upon me!   But the people who are offended by this statement would never have supported the cause to begin with.)

[Ric_Flair]

@MoggIntellect:

First, I think you are being a bit of a jackass telling everyone how apathetic they are.  When was the last time you saw an effective politician talk about how much is constituents were a bunch of dumbasses, no matter how true that is?  This is not an effective way to rally people around your cause.

Second, I think you are taking this a bit personally.  People really haven't been given any good NEW reasons that would convince them to support your cause.  Why don't you give us some new arguments to chew on?  Obviously, the old ones didn't work.  If you want to get the ball rolling again you need to think in a new direction and help us do the same.

[Smmenen]

The lists will never be separated for one simple reason: economy.  It would be a headache to have different lists.  That simple reason outweighs the infinite arguments you come up with on the other side.  I'm sorry, but its true.

[Matt]

This very cause has come up any number of times. No one wants to see the lists seperated more than I, but - and I ask this in ALL seriousness - what makes you think your campaign will work where others have failed?

[MoggIntellect]

You're all right.  I give up.  No one cares, no one will care... actually at The Source, they roundly reject the idea of separating the lists!  Unbelievable.  The majority of voices over there think that the separation would lead to the demise of 1.5.  I can't beieve how absurd it is to me.  I cannot understand.  It seems that many Magic players dislike rocking the boat or changing things.  I have seen this time and again, especially I have seen this in Extended, and now again with this issue.

@ Ric - My lashing out is a result of frustration.   When I see at 5 websites that hundreds of people in total have read my post, and less than 20 have posted supporting posts, and of those zero have signed the petition, I get a little frustrated.  I'm not trying to be a politician, just trying to do what I thought someone should do.  Of course I take it personally, I can't help it.. it's my nature.  There can be no more valid reasons than those already discussed in your article.

I was naive which is equal to stupid in Magic terms... I guess that's why I am a MoggIntellect, not a VodalianIntellect or something.

For those wondering why I got so worked up and tried this campaign... here is a taste of the wonderful Type 1.5 forum at Brainburst:

quote:

Creatures:
1x Akroma, Angel of Wrath
2x Iridescent Angel
2x Callous Oppressor
2x Soul Warden
2x Raven, Guild Master
2x Scalpalexis
1x Arcanis, The Omnipotent

Enchantments/Artifacts:
3x Control Magic
2x Confiscate
2x Persuasion
2x Telepathy
1x Think Tank
2x Teferi's Moat
3x Pacifism

Instants/Sorceries:
4x Counterspell
3x Rites of Refusal
3x Demistify
3x Confound
4x Death Ward

8x Plains
10x Island

You might have noticed that some of my creatures, like the angels and arcanis the omnipotent are kind of expensive. You might have also noticed that I have a lot of spells that I like to keep in my hand to have as security. Now, when I have 8 cards, the first card that goes in the graveyard is akroma, or an iridescent angel or arcanis. That's because I have my deathwards to regenerate em for 1W. Kind of similar to the whole discard then zombify thing that some blue and black decks run on"

end quote

This is the kind of scrubbiness rife at that board, and this post in particular pushed me over the edge.  I began with a post on BB, then I posted at some other sites, and then someone said I should start a petition, which I did, etc.  So in one day, from this scrub post I tried to launch a campaign, which ended up laying me flat on my face.  Even the person who said start the petition didn't sign it.  Unreal.

Lessons learned:
1) There is no consensus on any issue in Magic;
2) Players generally dislike major change;
3) No campaign should be started until thorough research has been completed;
4) Players would rather spend 5 minutes telling me how stupid I am than take 5 minutes to sign a petition (they agree with);
5) No one has tried to bribe Randy Beuhler with the Cheesecake of the Month membership... could this be the answer we all seek?  Is this the true path to successful change?

[Jebus]

Actually, posts on Brainburst make a lot of intelligent people angry, so don't feel bad there.

I think that if you had perhaps planned out your argument a little better, you might have gotten a better response.

As it seems, it appears you didn't put a lot of research into this, which it seems you are aware of.

Your valid points were negated by your not so valid points.

[Ric_Flair]

1) There is no consensus on any issue in Magic;
2) Players generally dislike major change;

There is a consensus on a lot of issues in Magic, just not THIS issue.  Similarly people do like major changes, if there is a good reason for them.  For example, R&D has made major shifts in supporting Vintage especially with card designs.  This change was warranted, furthermore it had people doing research and arguing eloquently for the change.  Your bellowing consisted of NO arguments, NO research, NO substantive suggestions whatsoever and was entirely complaining, chastising, and postulating.  This is not effective here or at The Source.  People will support warranted changes.  But you have show them WHY they are warranted.  Why don't you try that first and see what response you get?  Many people here are really open minded and many TMD members have high visibility in the community.  As proof of this, look at all the people that have commented on this thread.  People are interested, but you did not carry your share.  SHOW, don't tell.

[Ephraim]

When I see at 5 websites that hundreds of people in total have read my post, and less than 20 have posted supporting posts, and of those zero have signed the petition, I get a little frustrated.

Nobody here is trying to tear down your idea. All anybody has said is that the approach you're taking has been tried before and that it has failed before. You are trying to incite a player uprising to correct the grevious wrong being done to Type 1.5. However, while many players may care, in the abstract, WotC is not going to acknowledge the need for change until two things happen. First, the format, as it exists now, must have more people playing it. WotC needs tangible evidence first that there is an active playerbase that would make the effort of creating an independent banned list  economically worthwhile. Second, reliable polls of that playerbase must reveal that the players of the format desire the sorts of changes for which you are asking. After all, it is Type 1.5 players who will be affected by the separation of the Type 1 and Type 1.5 banned/restricted lists.

At present, although the Type 1.5 community is small, even when compared to the Type 1 community, it does exist. As has been previously noted, it is largely centered at The Source. Now, you and many other players may want the banned/restricted lists to be separated. However, inasmuch as The Source represents the Type 1.5 community as a whole, you have told us yourself that they don't want your changes to be made. If the people who would be most affected by your suggestions won't support you, is it fair for you seek support elsewhere to force change upon them?

[MoggIntellect]

No it isn't fair, hence the "I give up".

As for the change in design, I ran a couple of Magic stores at the time of the face change, and 99% of my customers complained about the change.  I had a lot of Magic players pass through my stores and one thing I have gathered is that players *generally* dislike change.  And not just casual players.  I find casual players more accepting of change, as if, being casual players, they expect the game to have changed every time they go to a shop, which is less often than the competative (daily) players.  That's just my observations.

More than the issues, I was uneducated as to the struggle that has gone on already, and the community that exists for 1.5.  I had no idea about The Source.   :shock:   For me, my greatest ignorance came from not knowing who was out there that actually plays 1.5.  For me, I thought BB's sad 1.5 forum was all there was.  I'm actually quite pleased to be wrong!     I'd rather have found a place like The Source than have immediate change in the Banned List.

That being said, I still hold true to my belief that every Format should be self-determined.  People constantly misunderstand and think it's about unbanning a couple cards, when really it is about the long-term future of the Format, including its growth in appeal.

Can someone tell me what the drawbacks are of separating the two?  What is the worst case scenario?  Workshop, Bazaar, Drain, and Ritual are Banned... and?  Does that mean the format would suck?  Does that mean it's unplayable?  I actually have faith in the DCI to make Bannings that are important for maintaining a balanced exciting environment.  Maybe that's because I'm a long time Extended player who is converting to 1.5.  I have lost so many of my favourites in Extended, including my beloved Oath.  But life goes on!  No one card defines an enironment in my opinion, and if it does then it isn't a healthy one to begin with.  Is a "play Dragon or beat Dragon" metagame healthy?

I know it's tricky when you get into Vintage because of the expensive cards.  If they were to restrict Workshop at this point they'd have so many pissed off players who have spent so much money on their cards, which is not a reality in Extended.  Card value does not enter into concern about the health of the environment.  Am I way off the mark of reality, or is that pretty accurate?

[Ric_Flair]

Can someone tell me what the drawbacks are of separating the two?

Every officiating body from the Supreme Court to Olympic Doping people to Little League worries about administrative efficiency.  The major drawback here involves that very issue.  There are not enough people that play the format to justify the increased administrative issues related to separating and maintaining yet another list.  

What is the worst case scenario?

Wizards does a shitty job of separating the lists and kills the format.  Even though it is small, there is a loyal following.  If they botched the whole process...those people would be alienated.  Why take on extra work where there is a high likelihood of ruining support, when doing nothing keeps that support intact?

Workshop, Bazaar, Drain, and Ritual are Banned... and?

How do you know that those cards would be banned?  In fact, you have not even provided us with some process they could use to separate the lists.  At least put in some effort into this "campaign."  And yes, banning cards that are not worthy of banning would make a sucky format and potentially kill off the small but stable community that exists now.

Does that mean the format would suck?

It could.

Does that mean it's unplayable?

It might.

I actually have faith in the DCI to make Bannings that are important for maintaining a balanced exciting environment.

Me too, but nothing so far justifies the effort needed to separate the lists.  That initial separation would require a lot of work.

Initially I thought you were just uneducated about the issue, which you still are, but now I think your just LAZY.  You have done nothing, NOTHING AT ALL to respond to all of the suggestions offered in this thread.  So I guess it is time for you to put up or shut up.  Either take to heart what we have said, that we care and that we support the enough, but that a new approach is needed or quit whining.  You have not articulated any standards for the DCI to use.  You have not made any suggestions about which cards are on or off the list.  You have not made any arguments besides general comestic ones ("each format needs to be self determined") why separation is better than the status quo.  You have not explained why it would help 1.5 or the game as a whole if this separation occurred.  You have not explained what you would do different from past efforts.  You have not explained why past efforts have failed.  You have DONE NOTHING AT ALL BUT COMPLAIN.  So if you really care, do something.  We are all listening.  We have taken time to respond to your comments and your ideas but you keep give us the same whining "woe is me" answers.  If this thread does not change I really think it should be closed.  It is off topic (a bit), but mainly the person starting the thread is not doing anything but whining.  We care, we really do; but you have not proven that you do.  Sorry for the harsh tone, but threads like these where newbies have a position that they will NEVER deviate from harm the community.  We want people of all points of view to contribute and this kind of stubbornness is not a contribution.

[Smmenen]

Harsh.   But true.

[kl0wn]

Type 1.5 Banning Campaign

Yeah, sure. I'm all for banning 1.5.

[MarkPharaoh]

lollll

[MoggIntellect]

You're all right.  I give up.

That wasn't sarcasm when I said that.  I wasn't trying to continue whinning.  Those questions were trying to open up discussion of what people think.  They were serious and not whinning.

To begin with, I have been reading whenever I can and trying to educate myself on the issue.  I had genuinely dropped the issue for now, and haven't acted on your suggestions because the overall suggestion was to become more familiar with the issues and come up with new ideas and state why the old ones haven't worked... all of those things cannot be done overnight, they take time, which is why I haven't "put up" and I have been trying to discuss the whole thing on here, which is why I haven't "shut up".

If you're tired of me, simply don't respond.

[Dr. Sylvan]

This has gone on long enough.