The Man Show :The good, bad, and ugly

[TheWhiteDragon]

I wanted to know the view of TMS from some of the newbie crowd and those players that are not full members as well as those established members.  What are the good, bad, and ugly points of the deck?  It's listed on the StarCityGames site for those who don't know it.  What changes are you guys making to it?  What testing has been done and what are the results?  Is the deck good, bad, or ugly?

[Ric_Flair]

I think that The Man Show is a good example of a skill based deck doing well.  I am not sure if it is the best deck to netdeck given the high degree of customization and the difficult decision tree matrices.  This is not a pick up and play beatdown deck.  In that sense is reminds of Keeper, except with the aggro Workshop core.  Overall, it is a good sign that the format is healthy.  I also think that the addition of Chains is a good way for aggro to control (read: Tog) honest and incidentally hating out Combo.

[Hi-Val]

I don't mean this to be offensive, but TMS looks incredibly janky and unrefined. However, the same could be said about Fish.

General observations/concerns: Is Grim Monolith good here? It seems to punch you into another mana or allow you to invest a few, but it seems slow, like running ESG in the deck as accel.

Why Karn?

The Burning Wish seems REALLY random, although you seem to have a lot of targets. I can't help but think that those would be better as REBs. The possibility of 4CC or Hulk being able to safely Drain/FOW anything you cast isn't a pleasant thought, especially with the two decks being able to really use the mana to bring on the pain. Also, with the grand total of one draw spell, it seems highly reliant on the topdeck.

Finally, and most importantly, do you feel that you did well because of the deck, the metagame, the time you've spent with it, or something else? I know you've been playing this for years.

And as a final cautionary note again, it may seem that I come off as disrespectful. I mean no offence.

[Azhrei]

I think some of the random 1-ofs should go in favor of increased consistency. The random StoP is kinda pileish, especially when you've only got 2 Welders. Four Chains would be tight, too. You've really taken the deck in a good direction and I think it's a couple tweaks away from really breaking out.

FYI, next time include your decklist. Makes it easier to comment.

BTW, I think it is HILARIOUS that people have told me "You should check out The Man Show", like it's news to me and I haven't played about 400 games against it. LOL. Good work man, win the next one.

[Misemaster]

I really enjoy your deck and have been testing some modifications. First off I too found the burning wish to be very random and I had to cut it. I really do like the 1 maindeck swords though it is great to have the option to tutor for it.

I tried as I am sure many have or will to combine the man show and 7/10. I'll post what I am currently testing here.

The 7/10 Show
        1 Mana Vault
        4 Wasteland
        1 Strip Mine
        1 Mana Crypt
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Mox Emerald
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Tolarian Academy
        4 Mishra's Workshop
        4 Gemstone Mine
        4 City of Brass
        3 Crucible of Worlds
        4 Goblin Welder
        3 Thirst for Knowledge
        1 Memory Jar
        1 Sol Ring
        1 Demonic Tutor
        1 Time Walk
        1 Ancestral Recall
        4 Trinisphere
        1 Darksteel Colossus
        2 Triskelion
        1 Yawgmoth's Will
        1 Razormane Masticore
        3 Sundering Titan
        4 Juggernaut
        1 Swords to Plowshares
        1 Mystical Tutor
        1 Tinker
SB:  2 Oxidize
SB:  2 Rack and Ruin
SB:  3 Blue Elemental Blast
SB:  1 Razormane Masticore
SB:  1 Swords to Plowshares
SB:  3 Chalice of the Void
SB:  3 Chains of Mephistopheles

Heres an explanation for some of my choices:

Thirst for knowledge over Chains main: Pretty much a metagame decision. In the northeast combo is almost non exsistant and where I play there has been a decline in Hulk of late. That leaves 4ccontrol the only deck where I really want to see them. They are OK against fish but sundering titan is a bomb in that matchup so main deck chains in my opinion are not needed. If your meta has lots of combo and hulk I would not make this change.

I left in the juggernauts to maintain early pressure but cut su-chi's to make room for the titans which are my mid game bomb. Triskelion as well as tinkering out collosusss are still great and the 1 razormane masticore can come in handy.

Due to my addition of titan I upped the welder count to 4. Titan can be hardcast and frequently is but 4 welder is still needed.

Yawgmoth's will has been medicore. Sometimes it is spectacular and sometimes it just falls flat. It needs more testing.

About the Sideboard:
The oxidize are for taking out null rods as there are not always 2 artifacts for rack and ruin to hit. I bring in chains against 4ccontrol siding out memory jar and 2 thirsts. Also when chains come in 1 titan comes out for a Razormane because you are mostly going to hardcast them without the thirsts in. Chalice is golden against fish as well as combo and can come in handy against any random aggro you may face.

Testing results have been positive but not spectacular. The deck needs some tweaking. Props TheWhiteDragon for making the Man show and placing so well with it. Hopefully the deck or a varient of it remains a contender in the Type 1 meta.

[Stupid_Newb]

I personally like TMS. It does have a ton of card choices that raise eyebrows, but if you've got the right amount of skill and practice with the deck, you'll probably do well with it. Clearly, it's a metagame deck, but if used correctly has potential to do what it did at the SCG P9 Tourney. Yes, it's janky. Yes, it's unrefined. But, watch for the big name players to do some un-jankying(?) and refining with it.

Bottom Line: Like any other deck, with practice, skill, and commitment, it can be a good deck. If you take the time to fix up some card choices and understand the stregnths and weaknesses of the deck, watch out for those Juggies.

[Kasuras]

So, for the record: the list:

1 Black Lotus
3 Crucible of Worlds
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Duplicant
1 Grim Monolith
4 Juggernaut
1 Karn, Silver Golem
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Razormane Masticore
1 Sol Ring
3 Su-Chi
4 Trinisphere
2 Triskelion
3 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Burning Wish
2 Goblin Welder
1 Swords to Plowshares

Lands (18):
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Mishra's Workshop
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
1 Artifact Mutation
1 Balance
3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Damping Matrix
1 Dust to Dust
1 Hull Breach
2 Rack and Ruin
1 Sundering Titan
1 Timetwister
1 Vindicate

When I first saw the deck, I directly thought this as a mix between 4cC and the old staxx decks. It also reminds me of the old tinker decks in extended.

The deck has been tested for so many years, so I do not think I am qualified to change the deck. And if you look careful at the list, everything makes sense. But some questions:

-What would be your choice if you went to another metagame which is not that draw heavy as this tourney was? Would you keep the 3 Chains of Mephistopheles or would you replace them?

-I wonder if you tested with Glimmervoid instead of city of brass/gemstone mine. And if you did: did it work? And if you didn't: because of the fear of pernicious deed and artifact destruction?

-Would a sideboard goblin welder be a good idea?

-Is the masticore to battle togs?

But then again: I don't think the list needs changing. Very good job on getting second, esspecially with a rogue deck.

[Stupid_Newb]

-I wonder if you tested with Glimmervoid instead of city of brass/gemstone mine. And if you did: did it work? And if you didn't: because of the fear of pernicious deed and artifact destruction?

City of Brass takes priority over Glimmervoid because if you don't get a Mox or a cheap Artifact to cast first turn, you're pretty screwed, where as taking one damage for a mana is as big of a loss. Gemstone Mine takes priority over Glimmervoid, again because the same reason City of Brass does, and because TMS runs Crucible. After you've tapped Gemstone Mine three times, losing a land drop isn't as much of a tempo loss because it's later in the game.

Bottom Line: Glimmervoid is too risky, and can make for a big tempo loss in the early game, where as City and Gemstone Mine both have minor drawbacks that are somewhat negated by other cards in the deck.

[TheWhiteDragon]

Thanks for the valuable discussion on the deck thus far.  I'm interested in all these new incarnations.  It is a hard deck to netdeck and play properly as I have heard from many.  It is skill intensive and not a brainless deck.

To combine posts here and answer Thorme's post...I know 2 chains work differently than 1.  I just put that based on a judge's ruling at SCG.  He didn't know how it worked with 2 either.  :-p  I still like 3, but 1, 2, or 4 may work better...who knows.  Keep testing and let me know if they even work at all!

[thorme]

Four Chains is no good because it is a replacement effect.  2 chains on the board don't do anything more than 1

I figured the guy who single-handedly brought chains back into prominence would be more well-versed in how it works.  2 Chains are NOT the same as 1.  With 2 chains out, the second chain replaces the draw component of the first chains.  This makes it a bit more confusing, but it certainly does not act the same as if there were only 1 chains out.  Walk through the exercise with a Brainstorm for example....you'll see.

[DEA]

http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=18504&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

the first page has some nice workup for chains

[Sean Ryan]

Kudos to your build,

Like everybody else I have been testing different modifications to Workshop Aggro.  I tested a U/R Stacker type build that opts for heavey draw instead of the Chains or heavey tutoring, and while it went broken more often than TMS, but cutting off your opponents draw seems the stronger strategy.  Another option here is to run Survival of the Fittest and form an updated TNT build that splashes black for the Chains.  Losing blue for Tinker sucks but the deck becoimes much more consistent.  Here is a prelimanary test build:

Evil TNT

4 Juggs
3 Su Chi
1 Trike
1 Duplicant
1 Razormane Masticore ???
1 Sundering Titan

4 Welders
1 Squee
1 Gorilla Shaman/Karn ???

3 SotF
3 Chains
1 Demonic Tutor

3 Trinisphere
3 Crucible

7 Solomox
1 Vault
1 Crypt
1 Monolith
5 Strip
4 Workshop
5 Fetchlands
3 Taiga
3 Bayou  


The manabase is a little questionable, the rainbow base the TMS runs could also be used but that isn't a great alternative either.  I'm questioning the counts on the controling elements of the list ie; Survival, Chains, Crucible, and Trinisphere.  Oh yeah, Anger would be nice too.  I would love to hear from Whitedragon and others on what they think of these different options.

Thanks
Sean

SB: in flux
3 REB
3 Bloodmoon
3 Rack & Ruin
1 Uktabi Oranatang
1 Duplicant
1 Trike
1 Platinum Angel
1 Trinisphere
1 SECRET TECH!

[Hi-Val]

Yes! Monolith is way better than the vault here for several reasons. First, no pain. Second, you can untap it with su-chi mana to avoid the burn and untap it on your opponents turn or after the card draw when you realize you can't do anything else with the mana. Third, a jugg or su-chi costs 4. Workshop + monolith = 4. Workshop + Vault = a jugg and a burn for 1, plus future pain. Monolith is infinitely better in TMS than vault.

Now this is hard for me to swallow. I see your logic here, but a first turn Jugg off monolith RELIES on a first turn workshop, which is not always seen. Vault can put one out with only a mox and a land, something I am guessing you'll see more frequently. The pain also doesn't seem to be a factor when you are beating for nine a turn. Why not run both?

[Dante]

For the people/person wanting to stick Titans and Thirst in this deck - don't.  The successful decks that use those cards use Gilded Lotus (or Mana Drain) for a reason - getting 8 total mana and 3 non-shop mana is MUCH easier with 3-4 GL.  Once you start increasing the casting costs (i.e. having less than 7 4 CC threats) or adding a lot of 3cc non-artifacts, your consistency goes waaay down (I played TnT for a long time and found that going below 4 Jugg and 3 Su-Chi left me wanting for early threats) and you become dependent on the GL's.  Also, mulligans with this deck (as with TnT) are often not a problem going down to 4 or 5, because you have so many lower cc threats.  Start increasing the cc to include more titans and fewer Su-chi as well as Thirsts and mulling past 6 will kill you.

The vault vs grim monolith is close, but I also agree that the grim may be overall better and more consistent for this deck.  The vault is faster for sure, but the ability to soak up 4 mana from a Su-Chi and to untap it during your main phase or opponents turn I think push the Grim ahead.

Bill

[Azhrei]

Now this is hard for me to swallow. I see your logic here, but a first turn Jugg off monolith RELIES on a first turn workshop, which is not always seen.

You have clearly, clearly, CLEARLY never played against Eric. His opening hand is universally 1 Workshop, 1 Mox, 2 Wastelands, and 3 random cards.

The bastard.

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

Eric, I love the deck man. I have always had a soft spot in my heart for workshop based aggro decks. I was just wondering, what decks did you beat on your way to top 8? Also, for the decklist, I do have some questions.

1) Why not just drop welder all together and replace them with 2 more threats. You are right in that welder is less effetive in this deck than in other decks, so why not just take them out completely? I was thinking you could add a sundering titan and another metagame call (maybe shaman #2?)

2) The mystical tutor in the deck seems really unneeded in the deck. I usually go for the throat and drop chains ASAP, making ancestral really bad. The other target, then, is burning wish, or a tutor chain....is that really needed?

3) Have you missed having memory jar in the deck? I know it has poor synergy with chains, but still, you don't always guarantee a chains, and jar is about the juiciest tinker target.

Anyways, great work with the deck, and congrats for your great performance at SCG.

[Timewalker]

First of all, congratulations on doing well with a "rogue" deck.  A lot of people do not appreciate the intricacies and subtleties in metagaming that this deck has brought.  I truly appreciate the aggro-artifacts damage clocks you employ in the deck. Overall, it is a very solid deck. There a good balance to the amount of presure the deck seems to be able to provide and the "metagame material" in it.
I find 2 welders to be interesting.  If they're there simply for some kind of resiliency for the deck then why, 2? Or any at all for that matter? They could be 2 other threats. :lol:   The only thing that is rather "off" for me in the deck is the burning wish. Perhaps it is because I did not personally playtest the deck, but I seem to be unable to fully appreciate its intended versatility as much as I should, I suppose.  
Again, well done.  It's good to see that there can a beacon of creativity that pierces through vintage's slowly shifting meta.  

[doomhed]

Well, Congrats on the deck. I like the build, I especially love the chains.

I would not discount burning wish so quickly, as it works very well in budget Slax one (former) member of my team was running. it definitely warrents its restriction. A key sorcery can break open games. Heck, sometimes even a wished for stone rain finishes games (not kidding).

Dont knock it till you tried it.

[Stupid_Newb]

I find 2 welders to be interesting.  If they're there simply for some kind of resiliency for the deck then why, 2? Or any at all for that matter? They could be 2 other threats.

From what I understand, the two Welders are used to fish out any Force of Wills and allow a few Juggies to hit the board. But still, if you do drop a Welder in this deck, it has potential to do some pretty broken things. I personally think Welder should be bumped up to three instead of two, incase you don't play a deck with FoW's. That way, you can get the full affect of Welder's goodness, the same way 7/10 or Slavery benefeits from it.

Bottom Line: Eric ran Welder's to draw out Force of Will's from the opponent's hand. I personally think Welder has potential to win games, and should be bumped up to a three-of.

[monstre]

I like the deck very much, but have a few questions. Is it fair to say that the mirage tutors make the cut because of tinker ? In other words, would you still play the mystical and vampiric tutors if you had to lose the colossus or cut down on the number of utility creatures for some reason ? I'm trying to find some room for experimentation, so I figured I'd ask before removing what could be a major component of the deck. Also, how important is burning wish in the grand scheme of things, do you find yourself tutoring for it often ? I guess what I'm wondering is how instrumental the toolbox component of the deck was to its success in the tournament. It would explain some of the unconventional card choices and singletons.

Out of curiosity, have you tried crop rotation in the deck before ? It's just a thought, but it seems to me like it would fit right in, fetching strip mine under CoW or providing acceleration in the form of tolarian academy or a workshop. I'm afraid I have little to contribute at this point, so I'll just offer my congratulations on your success with a deck of your own creation

[MrBeichner]

I dig Aggro/control so this deck is right up my alley.   The Chains are really amazing and hose so many cards that are common in most type one decks (like brainstorm).  There really is not much I would change about this deck frankly, although I do agree that stripping out a few of the one ofs and adding something to bolster the decks consistency even more could be potentially nice.  

For example, the already mentioned burning wish,  devistating yes, being able to grab your dust to dust, hull breach or maybe the occasional balance.  However, to get two of the aforementioned cards you need 3 colored mana which I can see being a problem to produce on one turn and thus eliminating the surprise factor of the card somewhat.   I would be willing to bet that most of the time that you wish  you end up going for one of your artifact kill cards.  Just playing the odds of what you are likely to run into, I think it wouldnt be a bad call just to main deck whatever your preferred anti artifact and or enchantment card is in place of the wish.    I was running cunning wishes for basically the same purpose in aggro workshop and have ended up just replacing them with anti artifact because 9 out of 10 times I found myself wishing for one so I just cut to the chase and made the deck run smoother.

I dig the monolith and it is simply another way for you to generate 3 mana on turn one.  Everyone criticising it seems to be harping on 4 being your critical number, but frankly 3 is just as good,  that lets you turn 1 a  trinisphere or a crucible,  both of which can be every bit as amazing to turn 1 as a Juggy/Sui.   Frankly, I think your mana base is perfect and really wouldn't touch it.    Although I will say that if you wanted to trim down to 26 mana, that the monolith would probably be the first thing cut considering that moxes, sol ring, lotus and argueably mana crypt are just better.

I don't really see a big use out of the razormane.  I can only guess that it is for tog as someone above mentioned, however, tog seems like it is a deck on the downslide and this card might be worth replacing for a second artifact kill ,another body (4th sui, 2nd karn), or a kill card like fire and ice or another plowshare.

The plowshare is something you have mentioned that you did not like in the deck.   Well, there are two ways I would go with this, either add some artifact hate in its place or replace some of the above mentioned cards with ADDITIONAL plowshares.    How good is plowshare against aggro or in a mirror ?  Seems pretty good to me anyway.  

Regardless of what direction, I can see the trimming of some of the one of's for a couple artifact or creature killers as a good trade off that could boost your tempo even more and give you some better options against other workshop decks, other than just hoping to get a better mana/creature draw.
Anyhow, I really like your deck and was rooting for you to take the tourney last weekend.  Best of luck with whatever you evolve it too.

[Covetous]

This deck is very interesting.  Chains is a house versus nearly every deck out there, barring aggro decks (FCG) and decks that aren't good.  I am led to question some of the random lone cards, like the burning wish and STP.  It's obvious that they are good cards, but as singletons they seem a little too random, even with the extra tutors.  Are they really better than welders #3 & 4?  Also, is Karn actually better than Su-Chi #4?  I am a huge fan of Su-Chi, so I always find myself trying to fit 4 of him in decks that run less than 4.  Under null rod and in many other situations, Karn becomes complete crap (i.e. if they have a chump blocker and no big attackers).  True, he can block 7/10's, but does that make him worth running?   And on the topic of razormane masticore--please tell me he's in there for Fish and NOT Tog...I mean, maybe he's decent vs. Tog, but he should really shine vs. fish, where he can smash things even under the rod.  Has anyone considered cutting down to 2 colors so that they can run fetchlands, and possibly recycle their fetches to thin the deck?  Just a thought.

[BreathWeapon]

@Gemstone Mine, has anybody else found that Gemstone Mine influences the opponent to make bad decisions with their Wastelands? I swear, so many players will leave your Colored Mana unmolested for FAR too long, expecting the Mine to deplete it's counters.

Them: "Why Waste it, in 3 turns he'll do my work for me."
You: "3 Turns of uncontested Colored Mana? Awesome."

Glimmervoid has NEVER done that for me.

[Sagath]

@covetous: With the ammount of control and combo in T1 right now (barring wierd Metagames) Chains is house, your right.

TMS is Aggro, workshop based. I think the reason for its sucess is more or less Chains based. In a control meta they own landstill 4cc dragon Tog/Hulk and Fish, all with a single card.

I dont want to rehash what was previously stated anymore then what was allready done so all I'll say about single copies is; Whatever works for you. The player of TMS said hes been playing it off and on for years. Just like Fish, it has small subtleties that a player of months will probably pick up on vs newtime player of one day.  I havnt playtested the deck, so I cannot comment more then that.

You have clearly, clearly, CLEARLY never played against Eric. His opening hand is universally 1 Workshop, 1 Mox, 2 Wastelands, and 3 random cards.

The bastard.

ROTFLMFAO. That sounds sooo like my playtest partner locally. He consistantly gets busted hands regardless of decktype  

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

I like the way the deck can apply strong early pressure while still having a toolbox of disruption and answers.

With 3 tutors, a lone burning wish and stp don't seem too bad to me.

About the TNT build: TNT is just really dependant upon welders and SOTF.  They are powerful cards and do broken things in the deck, but the deck is quite reliant upon them in order to function properly.  TMS is different because it is not based around engines and thus does not require specific cards in order to function; that is one of the strengths of the deck.