Yes...for the thirty billionth time Chains questions

[Ric_Flair]

Okay I was looking at TMS and I wanted to get the absolute current wording of [card]Chains of Mephistopheles[/card].  Here is what Oracle says it says:

If a player would draw a card except the first one he or she draws in a draw step, that player discards a card from his or her hand instead. If the player discards a card, he or she draws a card. If the player doesn't discard a card, he or she puts the top card of his or her library into his or her graveyard.

So I am thinking there are three triggered abilities here:

1) Non-draw phase draw = discard instead.
2) Discard = draw

But the third one does not make sense.  Does it make all discard voluntary?  Or just Chain's discard voluntary.  Also how do triggered abilities #1 and #2 work together.  If I am forced to discard, then I actually draw, but wouldn't this trigger #1, another discard, triggering #2, and so on....I know there is a solution.  I just don't know what it is.  To many installation contract questions.  Basically I am asking how this card plays out.  

Also what are the following interactions:

Future Sight and Chains
Standstill and Chains
Necro and Chains (I assume nothing, but maybe I am wrong)
Bargain and Chains (I assume it blocks the draw...)

Any thoughts would be nice.  This card is a mess.

[Jebus]

Ok, first thing's first.

Chains has ZERO triggered abilities.

Chains has ONE replacement effect.  Yep, just one.  The whole thing is a replacement effect.

So, you draw a card (excluding the first card for the draw step, if I mention a draw that is replaced by chains, just assume I'm not talking about the first in the draw step) and Chains replaces that draw.

It repalces the Draw event with Discard a card and then Draw.  However, this assumes you have a card to discard for this.  If you don't, the effect has a plan B.  So, if you are unable to discard, you put the top card of your library into your graveyard.

Chains does not affect any other discard situations at all.

I hope that was clear.  Now to your specific stuff:

Future Sight:

I'm not sure what interaction you're going for here.  There isn't much interaction here that I can think of.  Can you clarify what you meant?

Standstilll

When standstill trigger resolves, each draw is repalced individually.  So, it becomes Discard, Draw, Discard, Draw, Discard Draw.  However, if you didn't have cards to discard, then it becomes, Mill, Mill, Mill.

See also Ancestral Recall.

Necro:

You aren't drawing cards, so no Interaction.

Bargain:

With cards in hand "Pay 1 Life:  Discard a card then draw a card"
No cards in hand "Pay 1 Life: Put the top card of your library into your graveyard".

If there is anything else I can clarify, let me know.

[monstre]

Just to make sure, can you choose to mill yourself even if you have cards in hand or does that only kick in when your hand is empty ?
Also, what happens when there are two chains in play ? I'm guessing you have to discard twice if you want to draw, but do you have to mill two cards if your hand is empty ? What if you only have one card in your hand, do you discard then mill ?
Thanks in advance for your help.

[Ric_Flair]

Chains wording is RETARDED.

It should say:

Whenever you draw other than the first card you draw during your draw phase first discard a card, then draw a card.  If you have no cards in your hand when you would draw a card, put the top card of your library in your graveyard instead, then draw a card.

Some of the wordings of cards, even in the Oracle are so stupid.  Out of curiosity what would be wrong about the above wording.

[TracerBullet]

Chains wording is RETARDED.

It should say:

Whenever you draw other than the first card you draw during your draw phase first discard a card, then draw a card.  If you have no cards in your hand when you would draw a card, put the top card of your library in your graveyard instead, then draw a card.

Some of the wordings of cards, even in the Oracle are so stupid.  Out of curiosity what would be wrong about the above wording.

Well, the fact that it massively changes the way Chains works is one of the problems- If you don't have any cards in hand, you don't draw ANY cards.  You simply put the top card from your library into your grave.

Additionally, realize that it says except the first card drawn during A draw step, not YOUR draw step, meaning if you have something like Opt in your hand, you can play it during your opponent's draw step and not have to discard first.

[Jebus]

Just to make sure, can you choose to mill yourself even if you have cards in hand or does that only kick in when your hand is empty ?

You have no choice.  You discard if you can.  Then you draw.  You only Mill if you can't draw.

Also, what happens when there are two chains in play ? I'm guessing you have to discard twice if you want to draw, but do you have to mill two cards if your hand is empty ? What if you only have one card in your hand, do you discard then mill ?

Two in play would result in a Discard, Discard, Draw, assuming you had cards to Draw.  If you had two in play, and no cards in hand when the draw happened you would only Mill once.

It should say:

Whenever you draw other than the first card you draw during your draw phase first discard a card, then draw a card. If you have no cards in your hand when you would draw a card, put the top card of your library in your graveyard instead, then draw a card.

There's actually a lot of things wrong with that.

Some of the wordings of cards, even in the Oracle are so stupid.

The Oracle text  is worded about as good as it's going to get.  It's a complicated effect and it just can't be worded any better under current templating.  That's why they don't print cards like this any more.

[Ender]

Hold on, does that mean you even after you mill yourself you still draw a card? I would assume not but you never know .

[Ric_Flair]

I give up.  This card is too confusing for me to play with.     Me stick with Lightning Bolt, good old Bolt.

[Jebus]

Hold on, does that mean you even after you mill yourself you still draw a card? I would assume not but you never know .

Does it say you draw a card?

No.

The card draw was replaced with the mill effect.

[Jacob Orlove]

Bargain:

With cards in hand "Pay 1 Life:  Discard a card then draw a card"
No cards in hand "Pay 1 Life: Put the top card of your library into your graveyard".

You can play the normal ability once during your opponent's draw step, to get a card for one life without any effect by chains.

[Jebus]

You can play the normal ability once during your opponent's draw step, to get a card for one life without any effect by chains.

Yes I know, that's why I pointed out that you should assume I'm not talking about that draw.

[Machinus]

@Ric - maybe this will help:

If a player would draw a card, that player instead discards a card, and then draws a card.

If a player would draw a card and has no cards in hand, that player puts the top card of his/her library into his/her graveyard.

This effect does not replace the first card drawn during a draw step.

[LizardKING]

As an addition to this topic, if we consider the interaction of Chains with Zombie Infestation :

Discard two cards from your hand: Put a 2/2 black Zombie creature token into play.

then, correct me if I am wrong, but what happens is :

1) I want to pay the cost for the creation of a 2/2 zombie token by discarding two cards.
2) The replacement effect occurs, which means I draw, I discard, I draw, I discard.
3) The zombie token comes into play.

Is that right ? Thanks.

[Jebus]

As an addition to this topic, if we consider the interaction of Chains with Zombie Infestation :

Discard two cards from your hand: Put a 2/2 black Zombie creature token into play.

then, correct me if I am wrong, but what happens is :

1) I want to pay the cost for the creation of a 2/2 zombie token by discarding two cards.
2) The replacement effect occurs, which means I draw, I discard, I draw, I discard.
3) The zombie token comes into play.

Is that right ? Thanks.

What does Chains have to do with you discarding to Zombie Infestation?

Absolutely nothing.

Chains replaces draws, not discards.

[LizardKING]

But the Oracle text says :

If a player would draw a card except the first one he or she draws in a draw step, that player discards a card from his or her hand instead. If the player discards a card, he or she draws a card. If the player doesn't discard a card, he or she puts the top card of his or her library into his or her graveyard.

So it implies a replacement effect for discard, doesn't it ?

[Shock Wave]

LOL ... that's a pretty hilarious confounding of the rules there. Hehe, it happens.

As an addition to this topic, if we consider the interaction of Chains with Zombie Infestation :

Discard two cards from your hand: Put a 2/2 black Zombie creature token into play.

then, correct me if I am wrong, but what happens is :

1) I want to pay the cost for the creation of a 2/2 zombie token by discarding two cards.
2) The replacement effect occurs, which means I draw, I discard, I draw, I discard.
3) The zombie token comes into play.

Is that right ? Thanks.

Jebus what happens if I have a Chains in play and my opponent Hymns me? Should I draw 2, discard 4.. ?! Please clarify. lol.

[Jacob Orlove]

But the Oracle text says :

If a player would draw a card except the first one he or she draws in a draw step, that player discards a card from his or her hand instead. If the player discards a card, he or she draws a card. If the player doesn't discard a card, he or she puts the top card of his or her library into his or her graveyard.

So it implies a replacement effect for discard, doesn't it ?

No, it's one whole replacement effect--not multiple effects. It ONLY applies to cards players draw.

[LizardKING]

Ok I finally got it. My 2-neuron-brain is sometimes so slow...

[Rebel7284]

But the Oracle text says :

If a player would draw a card except the first one he or she draws in a draw step, that player discards a card from his or her hand instead. If the player discards a card, he or she draws a card. If the player doesn't discard a card, he or she puts the top card of his or her library into his or her graveyard.

So it implies a replacement effect for discard, doesn't it ?

No, it implies that if the player discards a card to satisfy the replacement ability for drawing, then you get to draw.

Ok, let's hear it for posting two days after the fact.