Turboland deck wins Lotus in Minneapolis

[Nantuko Rice]

VGB just brought up the weakspot to the deck I believe.

What happens if, for some odd reason, you were playing against suicide black. They play Tormod's Crypt and Withered Wretch maindeck, for also another odd reason, and they completely hate your graveyard.

Now, you Living Wish the Barb Ring but.... you don't have threshold anymore. There are only a limited amount of cantrips to the deck and Living Wish a creature, such as Zealot od Woodripper isn't practical when they have a Nantuko Shade on the other side of the table.

[Milton]

Brian, great job on the win.  You deserve it.  It's a very fine deck.  I know you worked hard to develop it and it is a force.

As for Kelp, urza_insane and leviat, you are all way off base.  You look at the deck quickly and make some bad assumptions about it.  It is very, very good and the turbo land strategy in itself is very good.  Your comments, though, are not very respectful.  Look:

I'll admit that I haven't played in a large-scale magic tournament for almost six months, but I still don't understand how a deck like this can win against a single Bloodmoon.

When was the last time you saw a Bloodmoon?  Did you look at Dr. Sylvans statistical breakdown for June to see how many Bloodmoons are being played now (there were 18 in the top eight decks of seven high profile tournaments, by the way)?  Do you understand that Fetchlands and a couple basic land in any deck can render Bloodmoon pretty useless, so it isn't played much anymore?  


This is the thing that bothers me about the TMD sometimes.  It's so easy to tear down a winning deck with a stupid post like "Bloodmoon wrecks you".  Hell, Kismit wrecks this deck too.  A first turn Sphere of Resistance or Metal Worker or a first turn kill from a Dragon deck hurts too.  You can't prepare for everything.

Of course, the second best way to tear down a winning deck is to claim that the metagame is shit or the player is bad.  That would be ignorant, in this case.  Look, Brian drew with Pat Chapin two years ago at the big tournament at Gen Con for the win.  He beat some very good players to win this tournament.  The number one seed going into the finals was I@n, the guy who really revolutionized sligh last year with his top eight finish at the T1 world championships at Gen Con.  So, it was a very, very good metagame with a good deck with a great player.

Who cares how many Horns of Explorations you get into play if you can't win? If the 4cc player counters the first crucible, at best on turn 1 you probably wont get another until about turn 4. By then the 4cc control player should have at least 2 more counters in there hand. The next crucible you get will get countered by the second one in your hand, all the while giving them 3 mana for each CoW if the Drain it. This leads to scrying, which leads to more counters/cunning wish. This doesn't mean the deck is horrible, it just has some obstacles to overcome.

Do you realize how stupid this statement is?  That's like saying to the Tog player, 'who cares how many cards you draw, if I counter your Tog you can't win'.  I did some testing against this deck last night, although it was very basic testing (12 games, no board).  4cc can't really win unless it counters the Horns or has a quick answer to them.  Forget the Challices, which are even more broken, but the Horns make the deck go.  Also, my build of 4cc has three dead cards in the maindeck (3 plows) and a bunch more dead cards in the board.  It was very, very difficult keeping mana in play aginast the Wastelands.  I couldn't get two Islands in play regularly by turn 3.  The Living Wish - Wasteland in the board is brilliant.  How the hell is 4cc going to mana drain reliabaly on turn 4 if it has no mana base?  I'm not saying that 4cc can't win the match-up, but if you let the horns and explorations go, you can't win at all.  Your opponent will have such a tremendous adavantage of permenants in play and cards in hand, while you will have no mana in play.  

Be a little more thoughtful here, and a little less insulting (I'm not saying the deck is horrible, but...).  Brian doesn't post here because he thinks TMD'rs are all arrogant, non-constructive and resistant to change.  Prove him wrong with thoughtful posts and maybe we can get him back on these boards.  He is a tremendous resource to the T1 community.

Oh, and if I had been there I clearly would have won the lotus   .

[defector]

To Browser:  Thanx for posting, its not that bad.  The deck is great, i watched you do some serious damage with it.  From what I saw I@n and I were the only people in the top 20 with blood moon in the board, he was in the top 8 and I was 11th, other than that, zero  nasty cards around.  Ignore the guy that talked about a suicide black deck wrecking you, I don't know why people compare decks that are to terrible to play with decks that are good.  Suicide also has a good match up with fish, are we going to see it come back to meet fish and turbloand, no we are not.  I'm suprised to hear a Tog deck got you, you were cruching control on sat.  Good luck with this build.
defector

[VGB]

Ignore the guy that talked about a suicide black deck wrecking you, I don't know why people compare decks that are to terrible to play with decks that are good.

I don't think I would ever advise anyone to ignore a statement regarding a particular deck's Achille's Heel; especially since many tournament reports nowadays mention X player getting laughed at for losing to Sui.

Of course he pretty much has graveyard hate well in hand with sideboarded Null Rod and Damping Matrix (to shut down Wretch and Tormod), as well as Xantid Swarm (to stop Coffin Purge, etc.), so the only reason I mention sideboarding an alternate win condition is for those rare unforseen instances, such as Blood Moon, or amazingly enough, simply not having threshold yet.

By the way, I dug this up from the Brainburst thread:

5)The main win cards in this deck are "Crucible of Worlds" = CoW, and "Horn of Greed" = HoG. jhaggs and I actually came up with the name Animal Farm at the exact same time. So I had to go with it.

for all the people here wondering about the deck's name - quite titillating, I must say.

[Zherbus]

As for Kelp, urza_insane and leviat, you are all way off base.  You look at the deck quickly and make some bad assumptions about it.  It is very, very good and the turbo land strategy in itself is very good.  Your comments, though, are not very respectful.  Look:

I'll admit that I haven't played in a large-scale magic tournament for almost six months, but I still don't understand how a deck like this can win against a single Bloodmoon.

When was the last time you saw a Bloodmoon?  Did you look at Dr. Sylvans statistical breakdown for June to see how many Bloodmoons are being played now (there were 18 in the top eight decks of seven high profile tournaments, by the way)?  Do you understand that Fetchlands and a couple basic land in any deck can render Bloodmoon pretty useless, so it isn't played much anymore?  


This is the thing that bothers me about the TMD sometimes.  It's so easy to tear down a winning deck with a stupid post like "Bloodmoon wrecks you".  Hell, Kismit wrecks this deck too.  A first turn Sphere of Resistance or Metal Worker or a first turn kill from a Dragon deck hurts too.  You can't prepare for everything.

Of course, the second best way to tear down a winning deck is to claim that the metagame is shit or the player is bad.  That would be ignorant, in this case.  Look, Brian drew with Pat Chapin two years ago at the big tournament at Gen Con for the win.  He beat some very good players to win this tournament.  The number one seed going into the finals was I@n, the guy who really revolutionized sligh last year with his top eight finish at the T1 world championships at Gen Con.  So, it was a very, very good metagame with a good deck with a great player.

I've been watching this thread, just WAITING for it to go bad. Milton, this is the breaking point. The syntax for deck discussion is the same for all threads...or at least should be.

Deck presented, comments posted (praise and critic), praise acknowledged, critics answered, discussion continues.

I see absolutely nothing wrong with anything klep, Leviat, or urza_insane has said. They are contributing to discussion, but aren't sipping on the guys ball-sweat like over a Brainburst. They are asking hard-questions that (to my utter DELIGHT!) Browser is handling like a gent. I was utterly suprised that a thread on this deck could go so well until I read this.

Milton, maybe you're too old and battle-scarred from old BD/TMD flamewars, but I really think that moderation does a good job in keeping these things in line. I certainly think that Klep's criticism (founded on preliminary testing) was certainly valid to bring up. Urza_Insane had similiar reservations and EVEN MENTIONED HE WAS BUILDING A SIMILIAR BUILD. Leviat mentioned Bloodmoon but also mentioned he hadn't played much lately, so right off he was disclaiming that you take his words with a grain of salt.

Browser, keep up the discussion because I think you're addressing the points here like a champ without bloating up the decks effectiveness to godlike status. Everyone else, keep the questions as productive as they've been, it's been a good thread to follow.

Do you realize how stupid this statement is? That's like saying to the Tog player, 'who cares how many cards you draw, if I counter your Tog you can't win'.

There's a difference and you know it. Tog can draw Duress, FoW, Mana Drain, and Cunning Wish to deal with stuff that prevents them from winning. This deck works differently in that it just draws more combo pieces. I believe the critique was that is has no way to protect itself which is a valid critique which was answered with 'I don't need to protect the combo since I just draw more pieces.'

I really think the negativity in this thread is all in your head, man.

[Lunk]

I love this archtype and have been testing with it since I found out about Crucible.  I do have several suggestions, or at least discussion points, I'd like to bring up:

1) Have you considered Chain of Vapor?  I've been alternating between 1 and 2, and they're great.  They work around random hate (Blood Moon, Withered Wretch, Platinum Angel, Chalice, etc), can help to draw the game out until you draw into a ZOrb or Chasm, and are great to prevent you from decking yourself to Horns while going off.

2) I really feel that this deck needs at least a few counters.  Without any Duress, FoW, etc, even if you do "go off" there's no guarantee of being able to force everything through.  Granted, you do have an SB Xantid Swarm, but those are very fragile and require using one of your precious Living Wishes.

To the people bringing up lack of threshhold as an issue, it's really not a problem.  By the time you're ready to go off with a Barbarian Ring, you should have at least one Waste available, or even a Zuran Orb, which you can easily use to fill up your yard without much consequence once you've got the win locked up.

My power at the moment basically consists of 2 Mana Drains (however, I don't think I'd run any more than 2 anyway) and a Timetwister, so this list is reflective of that, but I thought I'd post it just to spark some ideas on how to fit in countermagic.

Lands:
4 Polluted Delta
6 Island
4 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Strip Mine
3 Wasteland
4 Tropical Island
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Glacial Chasm

Spells:
1 Sol Ring
4 Force of Will
1 Fastbond
1 Gush*
4 Horn of Greed
4 Exploration
4 Brainstorm
1 Zuran Orb
2 Chain of Vapor*
3 Crucible of Worlds
2 Daze*
2 Mana Drain
1 Trade Routes
1 Timetwister

Sideboard:
1 Wasteland
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Gaea's Blessing
3 Null Rod
1 Triskelion
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Xantid Swarm
1 Gorilla Shaman*
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Gilded Drake
2 Random slots

Cards which I'm particularly unsure on, or unsure on the number of them, have been marked with a *.  At the moment it's 61 cards, and I'm still trying to fit in a Crop Rotation and maybe a MD Gaea's Blessing.  However, like I said, I'm not asking for assistance with my particular list, just trying to throw out a different set up that might make it a little more resilient.

[edit]: Beacon dropped.  This was a holdover from when I was trying some other kill conditions that didn't win instantly.

[urza_insane]

If your worried about Graveyard Removal (Withered Wretch, Coffin Purge, etc) You could Sideboard Ground Seal. This will also help the Welder matches and Dragon (if you're worried about it).

I was also wondering if you've found that haveing 4 of both Null Rod and Damping Matrix in the sideboard is too many. Does haveing all 8 really help any specific matchups? Maybe going down to 3 each or cutting one altogether. Just some ideas.



Edit: Wow, guess i don't know the rules as well as I thought   . Thanks for the corrections.

[Jebus]

Note that Ground Seal doesn't stop Tormod's Crypt, so you'll only have Null Rod to help you there.

And Damping Matrix has no Interaction with Morph.

[Unearthly]

Damping Matrix does not stop a morphed angel in any way, shape, or form.  The ability of morph is a static ability, can be used at any time, does not use the stack, and most certainly isn't an activated ability.

[Milton]

I really think the negativity in this thread is all in your head, man.

Maybe.  Probabally.  But I know Browser and his attitudes about TMD pretty well, and while he may be somewhat irrational in his dislike of TMD, he did win the Lotus and people are saying "what about Wretch".  It strikes me as being somewhat ignorant of how the deck plays.  But, I'll try to respond to that specific criticism.

Wretch is limited in that it must have mana in play to fuel the ability.  This deck will "go off" by drawing and playing massive amounts of permenants, as is usual of turboland.  This means that it has much mana in play, while Suicide doesn't because it is essentially land-lite.  Turboland has a fundamental turn where it draws and draws and draws, gains life and goes off.  Wretch can't stop the fundamental turn.  Crypt can, which is a good comment, but the 4 Null Rods in the board would clearly come in if a player cast a game one Crypt.  Also, clearly the deck can recurse Stripmine to deal with the Suicide players mana, hindering the Suicide players ability to use Wretch.  

I'm saying this:  The deck has simmilar flaws that every other deck has.  It isn't unbeatable (nothing is) and it may seem as though certian, single cards "wreck" the deck, but you have to go a little deeper than simply saying "bloodmoon wrecks you" and "what about wretch and crypt".

A good question is why isn't the Stripmine in the board?  It seems as though the Strip in the board would be superior to the Waste in the board in almost every circumstance.

Another good question would be why only one Zuran Orb?  Why one Trade Routes?  One Trade Routes seems a little too random, but I can see why it would be effective.

[xerxes]

The first time I saw Browser's decklist, I came to the same conclusions as Klep. However, last night I played Browser's decklist on MWS maybe ten times unsideboarded against 4cControl and was very impressed. The Horns are must counters, because if left alone the Animal Farm player will explode. Many times the deck just crapped out when relying on drawing into the bombs. It also seems overly reliant on the first turns with no supstantial means to draw outside of the Horns. Even with this criticism the match was close to 50/50.

Trinisphere has a lot of synergy with this deck. A first turn workshop-3sphere is another must counter, and the deck combos out perfectly fine under a 3sphere. A little testing with 3sphere allowed for a significant number of games virtually won on turn one. Browser, did you look into Trinisphere as a possible addition to your deck, and if so what made you decide against it?

[Klep]

I've done a bit more testing against this with 4CC, and I am still coming to the conclusion that it has serious problems.  

  It seems to me that there are really only 6 spells in the entire deck that 4CC has to worry about: the 4 Crucibles, the Regrowth, and the Yawgmoth's Will.  True, Timetwister and Jar can be troublesome, but if they only go off once, it's not that big of a deal because 4CC is also getting its cards back and/or a full hand.   Compare that to 4CC's 8 counters and 3 Wishes, and that's just pre-board.  Post-board, 4CC has 8 counters, and a mixture of Disenchant and Rack and Ruin (2 and 2 in my case).  Bowser's list has no way of responding to the thwarting of its threats except by finding more.

   In addition, though both sides have an effective draw engine, Turboland's engine also helps 4CC.  As the 4CC player, why should I stop Horn of Greed?  With a very healthy amount of lands, I'm quite likely to be able to take advantage of the draws.  The Turboland player may be playing more lands (hence drawing more), but I know he only has 6 threats that I need to deal with, and I have nearly twice as many answers.   As long as I don't let things get too out of hand, it is a fairly simple task to stall out the Turboland player until he can no longer win.

   I'm not saying I think this archetype is a complete dead end, just that Bowser's build is not sufficient.  For further development, I would strongly urge the inclusion of some sort of disruptive element like Duress or Force of Will.  Furthermore, Barbarian Ring is a terrible win condition, particularly considering the lack of red sources in the deck.   Replacing it with something like Sickening Dreams would be strongly advised.

[bebe]

I think i'll just add a story here. A few years ago Nevyn ( the inventor of Turbboland ) invited me to go up to Oshawa with him and play in a type 1 tournament. I knew Razor, lam and a few other ( at that time BD members ) would be there.  I threw together cheesy Sui deck. Now Nevyn had been on a bit of a tear, Razor was bringing on his deck and I knew Sligh would be well represented.
I drew Razor firat who lost when he admitedly misplayed a Resolved Yawg's Will. I then beat Nevyn twice when I puled his fastbond with a Duress and Hymned away his Horns game two. I went non to beat Sligh in the finals with a Negator on the table.
Nevyn wrote me an I.O.U. for a first turn win at the next big tournament. Sure enough we met in the top eight and he cashed in his I.O.U. when he ran over my Fish deck. He won the tournament I believe. There was as much hate back then as now but the deck relied on redundancy and draw (Horns and Gush). Well the meta has changed but the principles of magic have not. I really like the look of this deck. A deck that can side out Moxen and still win consistently has my vote.
I don't see 4cc being the biggest problem as the deck is redundant enough to give it headaches. I'm not at all sure that Duress and FoW is needed and I like the Rings as a win condition although i would be open to a different one if it can be proved better.
Very nice deck and congratulations. This is the first nice bit of innovation of i've seen in awhile that has taken my fancy.

[urza_insane]

I still agree with Klep. There just isn't enough disruption. Also, I've found when playing with my own version that Horn will sometimes stall out on you. I'll say right now that my build is much more focused on control and uses 8 counters+stifle. I'll also admit that my deck is not really a combo deck, but based more around manlands. I guess I just feel more comfortable with a control deck then combo   . But regardless, I think your build is very competitive, Crucible is a crazy card no matter how you use it!

[Browser]

I don't think I would ever advise anyone to ignore a statement regarding a particular deck's Achille's Heel; especially since many tournament reports nowadays mention X player getting laughed at for losing to Sui.

You fail to realize...I don't need ANYTHING from the graveyard...till I'm ready to win.

And when I'm ready to win...I should have already killed the Wretch (with Barbarian Ring) and Living Wished it back (because he ate the Ring with the Wretch)...who cares.

And...bebe's antictodal information aside, a deck that attacks my hand is the worst strategy ever.  First of all...my threats stay on the table...not in my hand.  So you have to HOPE to catch them.  Second of all, Hymn or Spectering away a land is really fun to watch...

In all my playtesting, I have never lost a GAME against Sui...with MD Wretches.  It just doesn't happen.

Can we talk about something important now?

Answering questions (and silly attacks) from people who have never even bothered picking up the mentioned cards and goldfishing...really doesn't end in anything that's even remotely productive.

Any further sensible and well-thought-out questions can be answered by people who want to post on the deck's original thread on BB.  I did make some slight adjustments that I will post on an article on that site.

[wuaffiliate]

I think i'll just add a story here. A few years ago Nevyn ( the inventor of Turbboland ) invited me to go up to Oshawa with him and play in a type 1 tournament. I knew Razor, lam and a few other ( at that time BD members ) would be there.  I threw together cheesy Sui deck. Now Nevyn had been on a bit of a tear, Razor was bringing on his deck and I knew Sligh would be well represented.
I drew Razor firat who lost when he admitedly misplayed a Resolved Yawg's Will. I then beat Nevyn twice when I puled his fastbond with a Duress and Hymned away his Horns game two. I went non to beat Sligh in the finals with a Negator on the table.

oh my god i remember that tourney, it was the first i played in, in years. wasnt it suposed to be a ruby for first but we had too few people? were you not going to play mask? but you and leon could not find some cards? omg so long ago!

I lost to nevyn that day heh.

[urza_insane]

I have no problem disscussing this deck on TMD, but I really dislike the Brainburst Forum. I read through the Animal Farm post and there is a minimal ammount of worthwhile content. Most of it was just saying how great the deck is. Sure the deck is good, but without comments from people like Klep, how do you expect the deck to get any better? So I'de love if you'de continue to disscuss your deck here, I like how the disscussion is going. I'm sorry if anything I've said seems mean, but all I'm trying to do is help.

Also, i'm not trying to offend Brainburst members. I ocassionally look around there, but in 2 days we've had more disscussion in this thread then 2 months worth in the Animal Farm thread.

[Browser]

By the same method it got so good to begin with.  Playtesting.

Honestly, criticism from deck readers never entered into the previously successful formula.

[urza_insane]

I may be just reading your deck, however I have a lot of experiance with Crucible decks as I have been playing and testing them in all forms since the card was first announced. So I at least have some idea as to what I'm talking about. Also, Kelp's comments are based on playtesting he's done with the deck.

But could we please get back on topic. I'de love to continue disscussing this deck.

[Warhammer]

I played against Browser in Brainbursts' June Online Tournament. I had made it to the finals 4cc, a very similar build to what Zherbus has been playing. I managed to win in 3 games, but i think i drew more than my fair share of counter-magic. Anyways, on to my experiences from playing against this deck:

Horns are almost always must-counters. Its too hard to keep their crucibles off the board when they are drawing 3 cards a turn to your 1-2.

I did manage to abuse his horn in one of our games, when i managed to draw a land each turn and draw enough counters and eventually cunning wish for R&R.

There are a lot of cards that need to be countered to effectively stop this deck from out-drawing you. Explorations and Fastbond do nothing when there is no HoG or Crucible in play. 4 Crucibles, 4 Horn of Greed, Timetwister, Y. Will, Tinker, and usually Living Wish to protect your mana base. Thats a lot of cards that will need to be stopped. Toss Regrowth into the mix and it can get difficult.

Ive played a Budget version of this deck with good results, although i think i owe some of this to unexperienced opponents. Sometimes they would counter the turn one Exploration...which is obviously the very poor play.

I am also playing with duress to help resolve my key spells and combat combo that is simply faster than mine. Im testing Cunning Wishes because V. Tutor, E. Tutor, R&R (often to kill my own HoGs), and the other instants that usually find their way into a sideboard with md Cunning Wishes.

[AngryPheldagrif]

I'll love this deck as soon as I see it beat a decent Kaeper deck in a tourney.

[bebe]

And...bebe's antictodal information aside, a deck that attacks my hand is the worst strategy ever. First of all...my threats stay on the table...not in my hand. So you have to HOPE to catch them. Second of all, Hymn or Spectering away a land is really fun to watch...

Which was my point, although it was presented rather obliquely. You need to catch a fastbond turn one to have a chance and you need a lot of luck and you can still win with Regrowth or Horns and Explorations.

I guess I just feel more comfortable with a control deck then combo

There seems to be a concensus of late that FoWs shoved into combo decks are a superior route than that redundancy. I have played Belcher, B/g Dragon and a few rogue combo decks that are based on the principles of this deck and I prefer it to adding control elements. I have never had the same success trying to outcounter control. I like this deck because it cannot be stopped by a single counter - it has a number of must counters. That said, a few Duresses might be fit in. I would have top play test this deck extensively to determine if they are necessary though as it seems a tight build.

[VGB]

Honestly, criticism from deck readers never entered into the previously successful formula.

Makes sense, because you posted on Brainburst.

By the way, I never inferred that the deck loses to Sui - what I state is that there is the potential susceptibility to graveyard hate, which your sideboard addresses sufficiently.

Now would you care to comment on my card recommendations in my first post?  After reading the BB thread, I see that a couple were already considered (e.g. Eternal Witness), but I think there are a couple of other cards I mention you might like to consider.

[Thug]

I tried the deck, because it's very simular to an idea I have been working on some time ago and I have some questions.

-Why not include 1/2 Volcanics and myabe some more fetches instead of the UP's.?

 I tried this and actually liked it. It gives you acces to Wheel of Fortune, which canbe great in some matchups, but I'm not totally sure on it.
But it also gives you acces to a sideboard Welder, which is amazing since it can recur Crucibles and Horrn

-Why so little Atifact Mana?.

Mana Crypt seems like a strong adition allowing faster combo pieces slipping them under Drains etc.

-How do you use the explosives?

Often I found them to be sitting in my hand dead when not needing them and a little slow when I actually did need them.

Koen

[leviat]

My comment earlier about Bloodmoon wasn't an attempt to dismiss the deck, but instead a comment on the fact that the current version should attempt to employ some means of either protecting itself (Duress, FoW), or a way of removing problems (Chain of Vapor, Capsize, etc).

While I'll admit that Bloodmoon and Planar Void rarely see play in today's metagame, that does not mean they won't make their way back if the need arises. I think the result we are all looking for is a deck that is strong and redunant rather than it finding a niche in a particular "hate free" metagame.

Edit:
On a side note, I wonder if perhaps [card]Raths Edge[/card] would be a better kill card than Barbarian Rings? It is essentially the same concept except that it doesn't require Threshold in order to be used.

I'll see if I can dig up my notes from when I tried to make a similar deck that abused Crucible. I do remember that it included a Bazaar of Baghdad because it allowed me an easy "search engine" to get to the lands I needed once the combo was in place (rather than relying upon the drawing power of Greed.

[Methuselahn]

While I'll admit that Bloodmoon and Planar Void rarely see play in today's metagame, that doesn't mean they won't make their way back if the need arises. I think the result we are all looking for is a deck that is strong and redunant rather than it finding a niche in a particular "hate free" metagames.

If Bloodmoon and Planar Void are really that prevalent in your meta, then don't play Animal Farm, right?  Choose a different deck.  Finding the deck that avoids the hate is so important and gives you better odds when playing combo.  This is truly where metagaming is most importiant. Surprise value and hate dodging are crucial when choosing which combo deck to play.

[urza_insane]

I think what leviat was getting at, is that if this starts to become really succesful then Blood Moon and Planar Void will find their was back. And instead of totally switching decks he was suggesting some protection. Who wants to switch decks if you don't have to? Fitting in Force of Will (after some testing) is impossible. You can't get you blue spell count high enough to make it reliable. I think duress of some form of bounce is the right way to go.

[Methuselahn]

I have always thought it was easier to find a different deck to play than try and squeeze anti hate cards into combo.  If your disruption isn't synergistic with your combo, it's a bad card choice.

[Klep]

I have always thought it was easier to find a different deck to play than try and squeeze anti hate cards into combo.  If your disruption isn't synergistic with your combo, it's a bad card choice.

I guess Dragon shouldn't have run Xantid Swarm and Duress all that time then,  huh?

[wuaffiliate]

Xantid is just to stop counters and instant removal not really for hate. Good dragon doesnt even run duress they run FoW.