MUD, now with 100% reduced welder!

[Aeneas]

In the interests of brevity, I'll start with the decklist.

Fistful Of Steel: MUD Remix

Lock Pieces (20)

4 Smokestack
4 Tangle Wire
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Sphere of Resistance

Card Drawing (4)

3 Mind's Eye
1 Memory Jar

Kill Conditions (6)

3 Karn, Silver Golem
3 Triskelion

Mana Pieces (30)

7 Solomox
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
3 Petrified Field
4 Metalworker

SB:
4 Damping Matrix
3 Razormane Masticore
3 Defence Grid
3 Sundering Titan
2 Crucible of Worlds

The most important question, obviously, is why am I running MUD?  Simply put, I don't have any Force of Wills.  A less clear-cut choice is why no welders?  The removal of welders (and red) allows for more effective lands and a higher concentration of threats.  .  So far, I have been finding the mono-brown version of MUD to be far more consistent than wMUD.  

I have two main questions concerning MUD.  First off, I am uncertain as to if 8 spheres is the right number to be running.  I am thinking of replacing some with crucible, and I was wondering if anyone with some experience with it had an idea.  And I would like to change the sideboard, specifically if I need to add crucible to maindeck, what should replace them.  I really want to replace them because I’ve already got Razormane vs. Fish.  

Concerning Mind’s Eye, I feel the eye is stronger than Skullcap because of they way it works vs. Brainstorm, and Standstill, and also, there is no welder for the skullcap to work with.

Any input on my deck, or critiques in general would be greatly appreciated.

[Ender]

My opinion is that your MUD deck is considered more of a prison deck which should be considered as Trinistax instead. I believe MUD runs more creatures like juggernaut and su-chi.

[Dr. Sylvan]

My opinion is that your MUD deck is considered more of a prison deck which should be considered as Trinistax instead. I believe MUD runs more creatures like juggernaut and su-chi.

Wrong. Stacker is the heavy-brown deck with Juggernaut and Su-Chi, MUD is just lock pieces, mana, and only a small way to actually win. Trinistax is MUD with blue and red for draw and Welders.

Carry on.

[xrobx]

The removal of welders (and red) allows for more effective lands and a higher concentration of threats

so your saying welders < lands and threats??

for 1 red mana, i dont think it hurts to have the red in there too badly...so i wouldn't say the mana base is an issue (if it is where you live, run crucible of worlds main deck - if your volcanic islands are being destroyed or whatever the case may be).

moving on, you said higher concentration of threats...well, considering the deck is like a prison deck, you are locking the opponent down.  please tell me how it is easier to resolve a threat by paying the mana than it is to swap it into play through the graveyard with welder?  i just dont see why prison based decks like this wouldn't automatically run things like sundering titan, welder, thirst for knowledge...etc etc....its like taking a great deck, then eliminating half of it....a good comparison would be fish w/o red...or ravager without disciple...

why?!

[DEA]

there's a reason why workshop slaver runs gilded lotus
the coloured mana is very inconsistent
workshop screws up the manabase badly enough for null rods and wastelands to do you in
a typical hand might be workshop, mox, mox, welder, thirst etc
you can't cast a welder on turn 1, nor can you thirst
this = very bad
by going monobrown you eliminate the colour inconsistencies, AND you get to run wastes/strip

i agree that sundering titans and crucibles should go into the deck
you can dump the petrified fields for the crucibles
they're just that much better

my build is - 2karn - 3 trisk - 1 mind's eye +3 sundering titan + 3 staff of domination
i took out the memory jar for 2 reasons
i don't have welder to recur it if countered, and i don't run tinker
staff of domination in testing has saved me more than once, by either drawing extra cards, or tapping down attackers
once i had to gain life eot to stop my crypt from killing me
it's just too versatile not to use and the synergy (*cough*) with metalworker is undeniable

MUDomination just seems better than pure MUD nowadays

[Aeneas]

@Dea-I can't  just dump petrified for crucible because the field makes mana.  And I think that the titan costs to much to be use reliably as your only threat.

Randomly Drawing the jar is enough, because just one activation is game swinging, expecialy with metalworker.  As for the staff, well, it just seems that it is too mana intensive, and isn't even a threat.  It just does a bunch of superfluous tasks.

@xrobobx- Paying for spells is inferior to  welding them, but with no reliable discard mechanism, it's irrelivant.  Also, did you see that this is about mud, not stax, a less focused version of mud, and therefore cant run colored spells.

And some help with the sideboard would be nice.

[DEA]

right back @ you
what you're making here looks to be prison
the triskelions aren't much of a beater
to be honest, if i did want to make a hybrid prison/aggro i'd stick with juggernauts
hits the table faster, and costs only 4
3 karns are overkill imo
having 2 extra slots free is huge

you're wrong when you say having only 3 threats to kill is bad
you're neglecting all the other ways to reach the best kill of all : the almighty scoop
how many people will play on when you have a 3sphere, crucible and strip?
prison is more about the hardlock than the fast kill
sundering titan does BOTH
you might cut something else for the crucibles
iirc, i cut 1 sphere of resistance and something else for 2

also, the staff of domination issue
you have to try it to know how good it is
against decks like fcg i'd keep a hand with a worker, MW and a staff + artifacts
normally it's imperative to establish the 3sphere lock, but heck, if he can't cast 2 goblins and gempalm the worker next turn, it's gg

[Aeneas]

I guess you might be right on 3 karns as to many, but the titan is just too expensive to effectivly rely on.  i think that i'll try cutting a karn and a sphere of resistance.

[BreathWeapon]

Wow, this thread was well timed, my play group just finished testing my variant of MUD this weekend after 7/10 flopped vs Keeper.

Here is what we have found,

Metal Worker is much stronger than Goblin Welder in terms of speed and consistancey. Most of the current Workshop decks use Welder as Mana Generation, and not as an actual threat. If you look at Drain Slaver and Drain Titan, Welder is used to circumvent the Casting Cost of Artifacts and Disrupt other Artifact based decks. In these decks, Welder isn't used to make threats stick but generate threats themselves. The same can be said for Slavery and 7/10, because Welder's number of potential targets are extremely narrow. For MUD, Worker serves the exact same purpose. The bonus is, you don't require a Colored Source or an Outlet to circumvent the Casting Cost of your Artifacts. The problem is, you can expect to walk into some Wicked Mana Drains. Note: You can Chalice for 1 with total disregard in the absence of Welder.

Ancient Tomb and Petrified Field are amazing threats in and of themselves. I know it seems odd to refer to a stable Manabase as a threat, but it's true. So many decks rely on Mana Disruption right now that a Rock Solid Manabase is a huge boon. Also, Ancient Tomb and Petrified Field make Trinisphere grotesque. With Tomb/Field, you can be sure that your opponent can't turn your Sphere into his advantage with a well placed Wasteland and Gorilla Shaman. Petrified Fields reccuring Wastelands under a Trinisphere is simply game vs most decks.

Sphere of Resistance has awful synergy with Chalice of the Void and Trinisphere. I would strictly SB them, and use Crucible of Worlds in the MD instead. Crucible is incredibly strong, having both great synergy with Stack and Wastes.

Mind's Eye is an easy 4x in MUD. It's the equivalent of a Draw Engine and Chains of Mephistophelese in 1 card.

Triskelion is necessary to compete in the metagame. You must MD atleast 2-3 of these, to deal with Welders. While Chalice for 1 is an effective means of Countering Welders, it simply isn't enough. They are amazing threats in and of themselves, serving as a 4 Turn Clock and PWNing Fish. Removing Trisk is the single WORST suggestion you could make for any MUD list.

Sundering Titan is a viable addition in any MUD list. I highly suggest experimenting with 2-3 in your MD, and atleast SB the rest They may feel random at first, but Turn 1 Worker -> Turn 2 Titan is amazing. Titan is also an incredible Top Deck card, I like to think of Titan as the Yawgmoth's Will of MUD.

Karn is still a useful addition in any MUD list, but I would never include more than 2 of him. Compared to Trisk and Sundering Titan, he simply doesn't stack up vs most decks as an independant threat.

The SB is a bit of a toss up, but I would suggest the following cards.

4xMindslaver

Board these in Vs Drain Slaver/Titan and you will simply dominate them. The same can be said for 7/10 and Stax. Slaver is by far the single most effectively boarding strategy vs Welder decks I have seen so far.

4xTormod's Crypt

Anything you can do to improve the Dragon Match Up is a good idea. They also really hurt HULK. Despite HULK and Dragon fading from the Metagame, I'd still be prepared for them at all costs.

?Platinum Angels

These are redundant threats vs Dragon, I move them in and out of my board all of the time.

?Sundering Titans/Triskelion

Any copies that didn't make the MD should be boarded IMO.

?Sphere of Resistance

I've tried alternating them in and out with Trinisphere depending on whether or not I'm on the Draw. I think it's an overrated strat that takes up SB space.I tend to SB them in vs Control a lot for Chalices, to help deal with Gorilla Shamans and circumvent Mana Drian. In general, I'd rather drop a FAT body or Crucible than a Sphere of Resistance.

Hope that helps.

[DEA]

Triskelion is necessary to compete in the metagame. You must MD atleast 2-3 of these, to deal with Welders. While Chalice for 1 is an effective means of Countering Welders, it simply isn't enough.

you COULD do that, but i'd rather just win
the good thing about having crucibles and staff of domination is that you can just go ahead and put smokestack on 1 the entire game, preferably under a trinisphere, all the while drawing cards off mind's eye/staff of domination
there's nothing a welder can do about that scenario
no doubt, triskelion may be good in the aggro/welder matchup, but it doesn't have the inherent synergy that the rest of the deck possesses
every bit of the deck comes together to provide a soft/hardlock, triskelion just becomes a speedbump
ymmv, of course

i'm looking at the tournament forum for the decklists for the italianjobs tourney (evidently many MUDomination decks were around) to see what they ran
nothing so far, it would be very interesting

i found that the key to the fish matchup would be to resolve crucible
once crucible is in play, fish's mana denial becomes moot and you can go and get their manlands with your own wastes
i've resolved triskelions against fish before, and yes, when null rod isn't around it usually is game
lets not forget what fish is all about, though

[WildWillieWonderboy]

Triskelion is necessary to compete in the metagame. You must MD atleast 2-3 of these, to deal with Welders. While Chalice for 1 is an effective means of Countering Welders, it simply isn't enough.

you COULD do that, but i'd rather just win

Just win is not always possible. Always going for a full lock at the expense of any other plan will hurt consistency big time, especially in a counterspell-heavy environment. Having utility large guy in Trisk is amazing to either not lose or end the game quickly. Against any deck with a relatively fast clock and/or counters you will have a tough time winning without enough threats.
Point blank, the pursuit of the lock without any provision to do anything else simply makes MUD a combo deck. This is not necessarily bad, as the combo one is trying to assemble is inherently disruptive to whatever the opponent may be doing, but in some matchups the lock parts aren't disruptive enough to get you enough breathing room for your clock to go off, in which case MUD becomes an inconsistent combo deck (=bad).
Since some of the lock parts will only work with other parts, it is important to have stand-alone threats to your opponent's plan.

[Aeneas]

Thank you, BreathWeapon, that was a very helpful post.  I like your ideas, but I think that the Tormod's Crypts are kind of unnecessary.  Dragons been down for quite some time, and with hulk doing so bad at the SCG thing, I don't think it wil be played much.  Also, how does the sphere interact poorly with chalice?

[Thug]

I have two main questions concerning MUD. First off, I am uncertain as to if 8 spheres is the right number to be running. I am thinking of replacing some with crucible, and I was wondering if anyone with some experience with it had an idea. And I would like to change the sideboard, specifically if I need to add crucible to maindeck, what should replace them. I really want to replace them because I’ve already got Razormane vs. Fish.

I would most defenitly keep the 8 spheres in there simply because Monobown MUD has the room too and they are crucial to your game-plan.

Sphere of resistance is does not have optimal synergy with some other cards, but it does stop those nasty Wish -> R&R's.

Crucible maindeck is a very good option, since it clearly has synergy with a good amount of cards in the deck, however if you would add them defenitly play with some city of traitors instead of fields, since fields lose theire value if you got a crucible, and cities only get better.

Do you still see a lot of Welders in your metagame? otherwise the Trikes are better of as Titans as suggested already.

SB:
4 Damping Matrix
3 Razormane Masticore
3 Defence Grid
3 Sundering Titan
2 Crucible of Worlds

The sideboard is really metagame dependend, but I'll try to helpa little:

Why the Matrixes? Still seeing a lot of slaver? otherwise they are pretty bad.
You could put the 4th Eye in the sideboard because they are amazing versus control.
If you want more options versus various combo's you could run things like Jester's Cap.
For aditional welder hate either put in aditional Trikes or Serrated Arrows.
What is your sideboarding plan with the grids? unless you are seeing decks with more than 8 counters I always found them pretty weak.

Koen

[DEA]

[quote="WildWillieWonderboy]Just win is not always possible. Always going for a full lock at the expense of any other plan will hurt consistency big time, especially in a counterspell-heavy environment. Having utility large guy in Trisk is amazing to either not lose or end the game quickly[/quote]

going for the lock means you draw into lock components more often, on turn 1 when you really need them
how often have you drawn trisk on turn 1 and wished it were a trinisphere or chalice?
you don't need to go for a full lock, just enough to pop either a mind's eye, metalworker/staff or sundering titan in play
most of the time for me, smokestack is a back up plan
with crucibles, wastes and strips, your draw will ensure the kill come up for a faster kill
speaking of which, when do you really want to cast triskelion? when you already have a soft lock? or just casting it blind?
a 6cc spell that gives your opponent a huge boost when drained should win the game for you NOW, not hope to stabilize in a few turns
if you already have a soft lock, wouldn't karn do as well? and he eats moxen, no less
the only time i find triskelion more useful is when you're shooting down weenies

i've been testing MUDomination extensively against hulk and 4cc
they win when they gets double counter on turn 1
other than that, MUD usually has the advantage
there simply aren't enough counterspells to stop 1. trinisphere 2. tanglewire 3. worker 4. mind's eye 5. sundering titan
drains are a problem on turn 1/2, but wastelands take care of it
control is not a problem for MUD

if your meta is infested with goblins, fish and miscellaneous 1/1s, yeah, triskelions are good, in the SIDEBOARD
i just don't think they have enough synergy to justify 3 slots

PS btw, you mentioned "Having utility large guy in Trisk is amazing to either not lose or end the game quickly"
i tried this in workshop slaver with suchis
it even worked well with tinker and welders, but they just don't fit
and that's my point about trisks in prison

[WildWillieWonderboy]

Yes, building a deck focusing on only lock parts will help you more consistently lock; that's a given. The point is that with the search mechanics MUD doesn't have, the probability of drawing into the lock parts you need at any given time is not really high enough. Yes, there are beasty god-hands that beat anything, but there are also terrible hands where you drop tanglewires and spheres and get your face smashed by aggro. Maindeck Trisks help with consistency  by busting small utility creatures in welder decks and being bigger than most other things in the environment.

[rozetta]

I briefly tested a mono-brown MUD deck recently, but it wasn't optimal. For one thing, I don't yet have Crucibles or Staff of Domination, which sound like good additions in theory. I tried Serum Powder, but it seems that the deck is consistent enough without it and having something like 4 Trinisphere and 2 Sphere of Resistance main would almost guarantee a turn 1 Sphere of some kind.

I agree that the land base should be strong enough to prevent screw from getting your workshop wasted after casting the turn 1 sphere.

My main problems with the deck, however, are:

a) While Metalworker is good, it's just not good to cast it turn 1 anymore, since sphere will always be a better play. For instance, it's not uncommon for a control player (fish, 4cc or landstill) to have FoW, blue card and Wasteland in their opening hand, which would screw you up royally.

b) The deck loses a great deal of potency going second, since your opponent will drop all their moxes, thus nullifying the effects of the sphere and making the lock much more difficult to achieve.

c) The deck has so-so matchups against other Workshop-based decks (Slavery, 7/10, TriniStax) for obvious reasons. On the same note, Sundering Titan is also so-so against these sort of decks.

d) The deck's draw engine (Mind's Eye) is just too slow to come online. Even with an unanswered turn 1 Metalworker, the opponent can still cast draw spells at the end of turn 2 and on their next turn, since you probably don't have more than 1 mana available to power the draw effect. This is especially slow in Type 1 and consider if you're going second, too.

e) The prevalence of Null Rod stifles this deck's ability to run decent answers like Keg, Karn and Trisk with high success rate (and also makes the Staff of Domination plan not so attractive). Also, it limits sideboard possibilities which is especially bad considering they all come out of the artifact card pool.

However, saying all this, I'd still like to see a decent build of this kind of deck as it has the potential to give problems to a good portion of currently popular decks.

[BreathWeapon]

Your argument against Metalworker is a little weak, just because Trinisphere is a better Turn 1 play doesn't make him any worse. Also, your not going to see both of them in the same hand with any regularity.

Trinisphere is still a strong card when your playing 2nd, just not as strong. It really screws with Control's FoWs and Wasteland/Petrified Field/Crucible followed by Stack (If you need it) is huge.

Staff of Domination is bad, I'm not sure why people are so enthused about generating Infinite Mana. If it's one thing this deck has, it's Mana in spades. 2 Card Combos are for Dragon and not MUD.

If you have problems against Welder decks, board in 4xMindslavers. Between Chalice 1, Trisk and the Slavers they shouldn't be a problem. It really is an awesome bit of Tech, being able to turn the other player's "advantage" against them is awesome.

I know Koen's list is posted on page 2 or 3, you can go check that out. I'd suggest finding the room for Trisks tho', I'm guessing Koen doesn't see Control/Welder or a lot of other Shop decks.

[WildWillieWonderboy]

Since MUD doesn't pack its own counters (or instants of any kind for that matter), the only way to deal with counter magic is to drop a sphere insanely early (there are eight of them in the deck and they have to not be countered themselves) or to spearhead the early game with an onslaught of disruption and lock pieces. That is what metalworker is for. Without the insane acceleration that early metalworker provides you have to drop the parts piecemeal, which will often be a losing plan unless you have a sphere down.

[Thug]

I know Koen's list is posted on page 2 or 3, you can go check that out. I'd suggest finding the room for Trisks tho', I'm guessing Koen doesn't see Control/Welder or a lot of other Shop decks.

It's not that Trike became a real poor threat, but Titan seems to be better right now, since it doesn't get hit by Null Rod and owns 4-color manabases.

e) The prevalence of Null Rod stifles this deck's ability to run decent answers like Keg, Karn and Trisk with high success rate (and also makes the Staff of Domination plan not so attractive). Also, it limits sideboard possibilities which is especially bad considering they all come out of the artifact card pool.

But what deck do run Null Rods? Aggro-Control decks mostly, that means little creatures combined with some countermagic. Chalice for 2 hoses those decks, and so does R. Masticore. All you really lose to Null Rod is your artifact mana, thats why you should be siding in Crucibles (or just play them maindeck) to make sure you don't have problems with your mana base.

d) The deck's draw engine (Mind's Eye) is just too slow to come online. Even with an unanswered turn 1 Metalworker, the opponent can still cast draw spells at the end of turn 2 and on their next turn, since you probably don't have more than 1 mana available to power the draw effect. This is especially slow in Type 1 and consider if you're going second, too.

Mind's Eye is stricly there for backup. Almost every threat should be dropped before you drop Mind's Eye. But those time where you have a soft lock with Wires on your opponent Mind's Eye is perfect. Since it makes it a lot easier to keep the lock, and it makes your opponent think twice about digging for answers.

Koen

[Aeneas]

I updated the deck to incorporate some of your guys suggestions.  Thanks a lot.

Fistful Of Steel: MUD Remixed

Lock Pieces (18)

4 Smokestack
4 Tangle Wire
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
2 Sphere of Resistance

Card Drawing (4)

3 Mind's Eye
1 Memory Jar

Kill Conditions (5)

2 Sundering Titan
3 Triskelion

Crucible of Worlds (3)
3 Crucible of Worlds

Mana Pieces (30)

7 Solomox
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
3 City of Traitiors
4 Metalworker

SB:
4 Damping Matrix
2 Razormane Masticore
2 Sphere of Resistance
1 Sundering Titan
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Other Cards

So, I cut the Karns most noticably.  I did this because while it is a kill condidtion, I don't feel that it is too necessary, because the other kill condidtions do additional things, making them much better in topdeck mode, which this deck can get into quite often.  

As for the sideboard, I'm running the Matrix over the Slavers because welder decks can abuse welder's better than I could ever hope too.  

Any criticism is welcome.

[Marton]

I would just chip in to mention that 1x karn would really help. remember that karn is a game ender and a mox eater.

[MaxxMatt]

Karn IS the only viable REAL kill condition for a deck that can attack with some 4/4, some 3/3 and some 2/2 AND Karn itself

Triskelions are only a bit of removal ( opponents Welder and Shamans ) that would open the way to Karn.

Karn is the perfect addition to a deck that MUST manascrew the opponent during ALL the game to win. Karn is the card to use when the opponent start with some accelerations and your 3Sphere or Wasteland are NOT ENOUGH to stop him resolving spells.

If you use karn in a real life game you would have noticed how:

1) Stops Aggro it self
2) Can Transform this deck in a "1_Turn_Kill_Deck" that use the attack hase to win
3) Eat All Non Land Mana, giving sinergy and redundancy to a deck that, unluckily for him MUST, set up his win really fast or simply die to common opponents effects.

These are 3 things that forced me to add 3-4 Karn to EVERY MUD-Monobrown that I assembled until now.


@Marton- How can you thinhk to use a "1of" in a deck without tutors at all? I have 4 Karns and 3 Triskelions as winning conditions and they are REALLY impressive in almost every situations.

[Aeneas]

My main contention is that other kill condidtions perform other tasks in addition to killing them.  I wanted to test it without Karns, but if anyone tried this and found it was bad, i'd like to hear.  What I don't want are assertions that Karn is needed.

[Marton]

maxxmatt: I didnt say I would only play one. I said 1x karn is a must. I mentioned it because the updated list didnt include any. With that said, I usually put 1-2, but I also usually play with welders, and some draw-7s/meditate/tinker (well, lets say I play stax and not MUD).

EDIT:

My main contention is that other kill condidtions perform other tasks in addition to killing them. I wanted to test it without Karns, but if anyone tried this and found it was bad, i'd like to hear. What I don't want are assertions that Karn is needed.

too late sorry there. Karn is a tried and tested kill condition. Up to recent sets it always proved to be good. There might be better win conditions now, but that doesnt makes him bad. Personally I think the mox eating capability must not be understated in this deck. Also, karn really feels like it was DESIGNED for that deck. Unfortunately I do not have test results for my claims, mostly because I'm on a budget, and I don't play with proxies.

[Aeneas]

Your probably right, that The Mox eating ability is very useful.  With Crucible/wastes, Sundering probably isn't needed, so now it's...

-2 Titan
+2 Karn

And 1 more Titan's for the Sideboard, leaving 2 spots open.