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Author Topic: Demons of the Forest  (Read 2482 times)
SpiritDeed
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« on: July 26, 2004, 04:12:26 pm »

Zaolac, Tranquil Evil
5BG
Creature-Minion Druid Legend
3/8
Creature spells may not be played.
Zaolac, Tranquil Evil cannot attack unless you pay 3 life.
GGGBBB: Zaolac, Tranquil Evil gets +3/+3 and gains shadow until the end of the turn.
"My past evils are to great I must repent in silence. My soul lies in the deepest of brush where any who enter are soon feed for the trees."

Zaolac, Tranquil Evil
4BG
Creature-Minion Druid Legend
4/5
This card may not be the target of spells or abilities.
Zaolac, Tranquil Evil cannot attack unless you pay 4 life.
BBG:Zaolac, Tranquil Evil gains Shadow until the end of the turn.
"My past is stained in blood, my soul is filled with sorrow, my mind is consumed by shadows, but my body will remain in peace."


In my opinion this version is better. It can be used as a blocker or if you need a finish he's a beatstick to.[/b]
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Jebus
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« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2004, 04:17:47 pm »

Second ability should just be "You cannot play creature spells."

Third ability should be "Remove all graveyards from the game and put 3 +1/+1 counters on Zaolac, Tranquil Evil."

Anyway, this just reminds me of another one of those bad multicolor legend cards from back in the day, except the flavor is worse.
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Ephraim
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LordZakath
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« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2004, 04:27:56 pm »

The flavour of this card is totally absent. How do any of this creature's abilities reflect tranquility? Why does a black card have protection from creatures? Traditionally, black only gets protection from white. Why does Zaolac prevent you from casting creatures? What is not broken about having an unblockable creature that, essentially for its casting cost, gets three +1/+1 counters?

Nothing about this card is designed to work with any other aspect. The harmony of abilities that makes up a good Magic card is missing.
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Did you know that Red is the color or art and music and passion? Combine that with Green, the color of nature, spiritualism, and community and you get a hippie commune of drum circles, dreamcatchers, and recreational drug use. Let's see that win a Pro Tour.
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« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2004, 04:31:46 pm »

This card is too fundamentally flawed to be fixable. You're better off just starting over.
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SpiritDeed
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« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2004, 04:51:25 pm »

I have changed the card almost completly and I really like this version.

I think it shows blacks williness to do anything to get what it wants and having to pay for power.

The tranquillity is shown in not allowing creatures to disturb it.(first ability,shadow)
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Jebus
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« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2004, 04:56:26 pm »

First, please read the forum rules on how things work in the Card Creation forum.

This card is just as terrible.  And did you really meant to keep everyone from being unable to play creatures.

Too much wrong with this.

Overcosted bad legend.
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johnstown713
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« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2004, 04:57:47 pm »

It could even be possible to bring the casting cost down to 4BG.  Since the ability costs six to activate then it seems like the casting cost would fit.  Three green and black is a little much for an abillity.  What if it was 2BBGG.  That seems a little more fair and it should say only you can't play creature cards.  Overall it is an ok card.  I love gold creatures.  Wizards needs to bring them back.

Johnstown713
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Ephraim
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LordZakath
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« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2004, 05:15:01 pm »

This card is simply too cumbersome, SpiritDeed. It has far too many abilities to be elegant. Furthermore, those abilities have nothing to do with one another. They don't form a complete interlocking whole. What they do form is a confusing jumble of ideas. Not all of them are necessarily bad ideas. For example, a large, black creature that can't attack unless you pay 3 life is a good idea. Go ahead and create that card, but don't feel that it's necessary to clutter it with other abilities.
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Did you know that Red is the color or art and music and passion? Combine that with Green, the color of nature, spiritualism, and community and you get a hippie commune of drum circles, dreamcatchers, and recreational drug use. Let's see that win a Pro Tour.
SpiritDeed
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« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2004, 05:51:34 pm »

I thought that I had explained the reasoning behind Zaolac's effects enough but here goes.

Zaolac was once a powerful evil, but after years of slaughtering innocents and murdering knights saw that he was a monster and fled to the deepest forest.  He sits in a deep tangling maze in silence trying to repent for his past evils.  Zaolac believed that if he surrounded himself with silence and tranquility he would be forgiven.  So he will defend the silence by any means needed.
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Ephraim
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LordZakath
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« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2004, 07:25:53 pm »

Allow me to clarify. While you made clear the flavour points behind this card, you still haven't addressed the mechanical inelegance of the card. When I say that the abilities have nothing to do with one another, I mean that they don't work together in a way that enhances the game. Take a look at Magnetic Magician. It's a card I created recently. Note how the two abilities play off one another. That sort of interaction should be present on most cards with multiple non-keyword abilities.

As far as the flavour goes, take note that only somebody who was previously aware of the story snippet you've written would understand why these abilities are present on the same creature. Furthermore, the principle of repentance is not characteristic of either black or green; it is characteristic of white. (See Repentant Vampire for one example of how this concept can be conveyed.) An excellent way you can generate flavourful abilities for a card is to select an attitude you want the card to convey. The two attitudes you've expressed that this card should convey are remorse and tranquility. Those are excellent qualities and could make for a very interesting card.

Let's take a look at your card's abilities and determine whether or not they actually convey the ideas of tranquility and remorse. I will also comment on whether the ability is of a reasonable power level.
Quote
Creature spells may not be played.

This is vaguely indicative of solitude, which may result in tranquility. However, the power level of this ability is very high. The nearest comparable card I can find is Feroz's Ban:
Quote
Feroz's Ban
{6}
Artifact

Creature spells cost {2} more to play.

Note that it is an artifact with a converted mana cost almost as high as that of your creature. Furthermore, its ability is much weaker than yours and is the only ability the card has. This sort of comparison shows that the ability of "Creature spells can't be played." is much too powerful in this instance. You would be better off finding another way of conveying this creature's desire for tranquility. One way might be to state "~This~ can't be the target of spells or abilities." That appears on many creatures, some of them quite huge, such as Plated Slagwurm. Furthermore, it is a reliable green mechanic. Naturally, if you wish to include other beneficial abilities on this, then you may not be able to make it quite as huge as Plated Slagwurm.
Quote
Zaolac, Tranquil Evil cannot attack unless you pay 3 life.

As previously noted, I like this ability. I think it conveys the flavour of repentance very well.
Quote
GGGBBB: Zaolac, Tranquil Evil gets +3/+3 and gains shadow until the end of the turn.

This ability comes out of nowhere. I can almost see the idea of paying some cost to give the creature Shadow. That might be a little bit appropriate for conveying the Zaolac's desire to be alone. However, you've already got another ability that conveys this. Furthermore, the +3/+3 comes out of nowhere. Your argument that it comes from Zaolac's desire to protect the silence is inconsistent with the repentant quality you're trying to build up.

The last comment is on the numbers. Your casting cost is huge, your power and toughness are huge, and the cost you've given the ability is huge. Tone this down a little bit and you might have something reasonable. If I were going to take this flavour and run with it, this is the card I'd create:

Zaolac, Remorseful Horror
{3}{B}{G}
Creature -- Horror Legend

Zaolac, Remoreseful Horror can't be the target of spells or abilities.

Zaolac, Remorseeful Horror can't attack unless you pay 3 life. (This cost is paid as attackers are declared.)

4/4
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Did you know that Red is the color or art and music and passion? Combine that with Green, the color of nature, spiritualism, and community and you get a hippie commune of drum circles, dreamcatchers, and recreational drug use. Let's see that win a Pro Tour.
SpiritDeed
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« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2004, 08:11:00 pm »

Changed.

You say Repentant Vampire, I say Kamahl.
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Matt
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« Reply #11 on: July 26, 2004, 08:22:51 pm »

Your flavor text sounds like a Linkin Park lyric. Also, it's still too cluttered.
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----------------------
SpenceForHire2k7: Its unessisary
SpenceForHire2k7: only spelled right
SpenceForHire2k7: <= world english teach evar
----------------------
noitcelfeRmaeT
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Jacob Orlove
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« Reply #12 on: July 26, 2004, 08:50:15 pm »

There's really never a time when a card should have more than two non-keyword abilities.
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Team Meandeck: O Lord,
Guard my tongue from evil and my lips from speaking guile.
To those who slander me, let me give no heed.
May my soul be humble and forgiving to all.
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« Reply #13 on: July 26, 2004, 09:05:42 pm »

Oh, I think I disagree with that. But the abilities should have more synergy than these.
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----------------------
SpenceForHire2k7: Its unessisary
SpenceForHire2k7: only spelled right
SpenceForHire2k7: <= world english teach evar
----------------------
noitcelfeRmaeT
{Team Hindsight}
johnstown713
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« Reply #14 on: July 26, 2004, 09:28:36 pm »

I think cards with multiple abilities are cool.  What if you dropped the shadow ability and tried something like this.  Can only attack if you pay 4 life.  Whenever you pay life for abilities or effects creatures you control can't be the target of spells or abilities until end of turn.  I think that is pretty cool and it creatures some synergy.

Johnstown713

P.S.  I didn't know we were comparing superman to stuff out of a card creation thread, unless the cards are made of kryptonite.
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Matt
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« Reply #15 on: July 26, 2004, 11:31:34 pm »

1. That's missing the point entirely. Morphling's abilities all make perfect sense for him to have.
2. Morphling isn't even overpowered anymore. Exalted Angel alone is better, and so are a host of other creatures. Morphling is a total Juzam Djinn.
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http://www.goodgamery.com/pmo/c025.GIF
----------------------
SpenceForHire2k7: Its unessisary
SpenceForHire2k7: only spelled right
SpenceForHire2k7: <= world english teach evar
----------------------
noitcelfeRmaeT
{Team Hindsight}
johnstown713
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« Reply #16 on: July 27, 2004, 06:58:04 am »

I was just joking but I totally understand what you are saying.  all of you examples are ones that are tied together unlike this.

Johnstown713
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SpiritDeed
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« Reply #17 on: August 02, 2004, 01:39:58 pm »

Zaolac, Tranquil Evil
4BG
Creature-Minion Druid Legend
4/5
This card may not be the target of spells or abilities.
Zaolac, Tranquil Evil cannot attack unless you pay 4 life.
BBG:Zaolac, Tranquil Evil gains Shadow until the end of the turn.
"My past is stained in blood, my soul is filled with sorrow, my mind is consumed by shadows, but my body will remain in peace."



Yes I am still trying to get this to work well.

The flavor has been changed to reflect each ability:
1st ability=last part
2nd ability=second part
3rd ability=third part
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lilmidget
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« Reply #18 on: August 02, 2004, 04:08:00 pm »

You might want to change the text Zaolac, Tranquil Evil cannot attack unless you pay 4 life. to something like Zaolac, Tranquil Evil cannot attack this turn unless you pay 4 life. for more clarity. Otherwise people might think that you could just pay 4 life once and he'll be able to attack every turn after that.
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