Humility vs. spikes and manlands ?

[Nubi]

I've got a few questions about humility:
a. How big is a mishra's Factory under humility ?
b. Does spikes come into play without counters ? (i.e. Spike Weaer)

Due to the rules of continous effects I'd say that the factory is a 2/2 since it's the last effect applied.

And I'd say that spikes are just 1/1 w/out counters, as the continous effect should be applied before looking for comes into play effects (and by then they're gone)

But I'd rather be sure, thus I ask

[Jebus]

I've got a few questions about humility:
a. How big is a mishra's Factory under humility ?
b. Does spikes come into play without counters ? (i.e. Spike Weaer)

a.  1/1.

b.  They come with counters.  However, they are 1/1s.

Due to the rules of continous effects I'd say that the factory is a 2/2 since it's the last effect applied.

The effect that sets its characteristics is applied before Humility, not after.  Since Humility is applied afterwards, it is a 1/1.

And I'd say that spikes are just 1/1 w/out counters, as the continous effect should be applied before looking for comes into play effects (and by then they're gone)

They are 1/1s, but they do have their counters.  The ability that adds counters will add them as it comes into play, before Humility removes any abiliteis.  However, since the counters are applied before Humility, the end result is still 1/1.  If Humility were to be removed, the counters would then work as normal.

[ProZachar]

The Factory is 1/1.

The Factory's animating ability produces an effect that is both a type-changing effect and a power/toughness changing effect.  Continuous effects work in 6 layers; layer 1 is the first applied, layer 6 is the last.  Normally, P/T modifiers are applied in layer 6, but since this one also has a type-changing effect, both are applied entirely in layer 4 with the type-changing effect.  Humility is a P/T modifier (and an "other, non P/T" modifier)[1], so it applies only in layer 6.  Because Humility is always applied last, the Factory is always 1/1.

418.5a The values of an object’s characteristics are determined by starting with the actual object, then applying continuous effects in a series of layers in the following order: (1) copy effects (see rule 503, “Copying Objects�), (2) control-changing effects, (3) text-changing effects, (4) type-, subtype-, and supertype-changing effects, (5) all other continuous effects, except those that change power or toughness, and (6) power- or toughness-changing effects.
          Inside each layer, apply effects from characteristic-setting abilities first, then effects from all other abilities. For power- or toughness-changing effects, apply changes from counters after changes from characteristic-setting abilities. See also the rules for timestamp order and dependency (rules 418.5b–418.5g).

418.5b If an effect other than a type-, subtype-, and supertype-changing effect should be applied in different layers, the parts of the effect each apply in their appropriate layers. If a type-, subtype-, and supertype-changing effect should be applied in different layers, all are applied only in layer four (type-, subtype- and supertype changing effects).


"Comes into play with...", "Comes into play tapped" and their cronies (which do not include "When ~this~ comes into play...") are replacement effects.  They are applied as the permanent comes into play.  Spikes will come into play with the counters.  In this case, you have 2 P/T changing effects (layer 6).  One of them is due to counters.   You start with the printed values (0/0), apply characteristic-setting abilities (none), then apply counters (2/2), then apply Humility(1/1).  It's a 1/1 with 2 +1/+1 counters on it.

[1]418.5b says that we apply Humility's "All creatures lose all abilities" in layer 5 (but that's mostly irrelevant to the discussion), and "All creatures are 1/1" in layer 6.

[Nubi]

Hmmm a bit more complex than I first thought eh, well thanks for clearing up my mistakes

[Nubi]

Ehm just one last thing: Goblin Recruiter and Ringleader both says "When ~this~ comes into play", so do they work under humility ?

[Jebus]

Ehm just one last thing: Goblin Recruiter and Ringleader both says "When ~this~ comes into play", so do they work under humility ?

No.  Their ability is removed before it can trigger.

[Zhalfirin]

How does Humility work with Meddling Mage?  Meddling Mage says "As this comes into play, name a card."  This happens before Humility's effect takes place, right?  However, once the Mage comes into play, it loses the "The named card can't be played" ability and becomes a 1/1.  What happens if Humility leaves play while the Mage is in play?  Does the named card suddenly become unplayable?

[Jacob Orlove]

How does Humility work with Meddling Mage?  Meddling Mage says "As this comes into play, name a card."  This happens before Humility's effect takes place, right?  However, once the Mage comes into play, it loses the "The named card can't be played" ability and becomes a 1/1.  What happens if Humility leaves play while the Mage is in play?  Does the named card suddenly become unplayable?

Correct on all counts.

[TracerBullet]

Question-

If I were to play Weaver and move one of it's counters to itself, would it then change it's P/T to 2/2?  

There was a time when I understood Humilty and all it's interactions...

[Jacob Orlove]

Question-

If I were to play Weaver and move one of it's counters to itself, would it then change it's P/T to 2/2?  

There was a time when I understood Humilty and all it's interactions...

Well, it wouldn't have that ability, but let's say you played humility with Vedalken Orrery in response to the weaver activation.

It would still be 1/1. Counters are applied before external effects.