[Deck Discussion]Draw-7, the forgotten archetype that wins.

[AngryPheldagrif]

Draw 7
by Koen van der Hulst
6th place, 2004-04-04 Mol

1 Memory Jar
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Necropotence
2 Tendrils of Agony
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Brainstorm
1 Chain of Vapor
3 Diminishing Returns
4 Force of Will
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Mind's Desire
1 Time Walk
1 Timetwister
1 Tinker
1 Windfall
1 Crop Rotation
1 Fastbond
1 Wheel of Fortune
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Dark Ritual
1 Black Lotus
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Glimmervoid
1 Tolarian Academy

Sideboard
1 Chain of Vapor
2 Duress
1 Gaea's Blessing
3 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Naturalize
2 Oxidize
4 Xantid Swarm

Draw 7
by Team DD

1 Memory Jar
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Necropotence
2 Tendrils of Agony
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Brainstorm
1 Chain of Vapor
3 Diminishing Returns
4 Force of Will
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Mind's Desire
1 Time Walk
1 Timetwister
1 Tinker
1 Windfall
1 Crop Rotation
1 Fastbond
1 Wheel of Fortune
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Dark Ritual
1 Black Lotus
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Glimmervoid
1 Tolarian Academy

Sideboard
4 Duress
3 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Oxidize
4 Xantid Swarm
2 Metagame Slots (whatever the hell you want or just another pair of Oxidizes or something)

As you can see, we barely touched up the sideboard and did absolutely nothing to the maindeck. The board changes were in cutting the less useful items and upping the Duress count. We felt that with 4 Hurkyl's Recalls, Naturalize is useless and won't help against Chalice for 2.

Why is this deck competitive? Because this is the most consistent turn 2 victory in all of current T1. With a lot of aggressive decks like FCG and 7/10 split running around, the ability to win before they can do pretty much anything is extremely deadly. While not always quite as 'explosive' as Belcher or Death Long, the deck's turn 2 goldfish is simply routine.

This deck hates Force of Will, that is a fact. Another fact is that a ton of T1 seems to be playing Force of Will at the moment. Unlike Belcher, this deck has them too. Unlike both Belcher and Death Long, this deck is consistent and redundant enough to often go off straight through even multiple Forces.

In the one major tournament I took this too, I beat a whole ton of Tier 1 and 2 decks, from Kaeper and Tog to Slaver and Dragon, losing only to crap out against Belcher and consecutive god hands of 7/10. With almost every deck playing dead cards against this, I was able to win with an easy consistency through counters and everything. And his was considering that I was running a sideboard that transformed to MaskNought which was pretty much a joke. (I ended up boarding it in in just one single game against Tog, which I won.) Despite my Salvager adventures, Draw-7 remains my deck of choice for tournaments.

There isn't a ton you can do to this deck besides shuffling the mana base around a bit and swapping a card or 2. Still, it's a deck that delivers and delivers well. Why isn't it seeing more play?

[austinnadz]

I find that once the deck has a counterspell of sorts played against it on a draw7 whether it's FoW, manadrain, daze (god forbid you lose to a daze with this deck) or whatever, it loses it's steam and goes into topdeck mode just too fast to be reliable for a win. it needs to have more ability to have a pick-me-up once you lose a draw7 or a search.

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

Which is why I really think xantid swarm needs to be MDed. I understand Smmenen's point about it being useless when going off (imagine drawing 2 swarms off a draw7), but quite honestly, the swarm LETS you go off. A first turn swarm is sooooo good vs. control. Factor in everyone and their mother playing Force of will & Co, and you'll see why MD Swarms are so sexy. The other problem I had with this deck is that letting an opponent draw 7 new cards may mean they will draw into a force. Swarm negates this shenanegance.

[Smmenen]

MD Xantid slows the deck's goldfish down a turn and makes turn one wins too rare.

[Thug]

Funny that you took my deck   But all credit goes to Smmenen.
You really shouldn't look at my sideboard, I basicly thought it was ok after putting in 8 cards, and I just threw some more artifact destruction in there to fill it up. They might as well have been Tarpans.

I think hidden Guerillas and Gibbons are good sideboard options so that you can force your opponent to deal with two different kind of strategies.

I never sideboarded in the Duresses, when do you plan on sideboarding them in? versus control I guess?

Koen

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

MD Xantid slows the deck's goldfish down a turn and makes turn one wins too rare.

The only time you want to go off turn 1 is vs. workshop decks that can immediately pressure you by going turn 1 trinisphere. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that what the board is for? If I were going into a major tournament today, there is no doubt in my mind that I would MD 3-4 swarms. The top decks now-a-days are all control based strategies (or aggro-control, as the case for fish) meaning you are really in no hurry to win. I would gladly trade not being able to go off turn 1 for a guaranteed win later on (except in the case of workshop prison).

As far as the whole "overwhelm your opponent with bombs" idea, it applies to swarm as well. Swarm is even a bigger threat than draw7's in the first 2 turns. If I resolve a swarm turn one and you have no threat, it doesn't matter how many card-drawers or counters you have.

-Bob

[AngryPheldagrif]

MD Xantid slows the deck's goldfish down a turn and makes turn one wins too rare.

The only time you want to go off turn 1 is vs. workshop decks that can immediately pressure you by going turn 1 trinisphere. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that what the board is for? If I were going into a major tournament today, there is no doubt in my mind that I would MD 3-4 swarms. The top decks now-a-days are all control based strategies (or aggro-control, as the case for fish) meaning you are really in no hurry to win. I would gladly trade not being able to go off turn 1 for a guaranteed win later on (except in the case of workshop prison).

As far as the whole "overwhelm your opponent with bombs" idea, it applies to swarm as well. Swarm is even a bigger threat than draw7's in the first 2 turns. If I resolve a swarm turn one and you have no threat, it doesn't matter how many card-drawers or counters you have.

-Bob

The problem with maindecking swarms and such is the same reason TPS ran into the ground. Slowing down to deal with control doesn't make the deck more effecient, it makes it suck.

The sideboard doesn't really matter all that much. I used a useless transformational board and it still was ok. The only really important part is the 4 Swarms and the 3 Recalls. The rest is negligible. I don't even remember why we upped the Duresses.

Against control it becomes more important to win fast. If you draw the game out, control gains the advantage. That's the whole point. Winning turn 1-2 means that all that can stop you is Force. They have, at most, 4 Forces. So do you. It isn't anywhere near as crippling as it is to Belcher.

-Dan

[goober]

Draw7 isn't viable in any large tournament because it will randomly crap out on you.  You can play the deck perfectly and just lose.  This will happen often enough to make you not top8 anything serious.  TPS and Death Long are more viable because they don't keep refilling your opponent's hand.  A Force can mean the game, so it is a lot safer to not let them look through 30 cards for it.  The strategy of powerign out 1 huge spell, backed with Duress and FoW is far more powerful.  5 Wishes, Bargain, Necro, and Desire all read GG.  Draw7s make you hope to draw something good, and pray your opponent doesn't hit the FoW.

[AngryPheldagrif]

Draw7 isn't viable in any large tournament because it will randomly crap out on you.  You can play the deck perfectly and just lose.  This will happen often enough to make you not top8 anything serious.  TPS and Death Long are more viable because they don't keep refilling your opponent's hand.  A Force can mean the game, so it is a lot safer to not let them look through 30 cards for it.  The strategy of powerign out 1 huge spell, backed with Duress and FoW is far more powerful.  5 Wishes, Bargain, Necro, and Desire all read GG.  Draw7s make you hope to draw something good, and pray your opponent doesn't hit the FoW.

Draw-7 craps out a lot less than Belcher and Death Long. For goldfishing, you've got (rough estimate after a shitload of goldfishing)
Win turn 1: %20
Win turn 2: %60
Win turn 3: %10
Win afterwords or crap out: %10

I define 'crapping out' as not winning by turn 3. And even then, thats 1 in 10. A single crap out game out of every 3-5 matches. The deck doesn't crap out anywhere near as much because it's so redundant. And realistically, comparing to Death Long, Hurkl's Recall can do just the same thing if you've got a win condition. That's why they're on the board, in addition to being hilarious artifact hate.

[Vegeta2711]

The problem with maindecking swarms and such is the same reason TPS ran into the ground. Slowing down to deal with control doesn't make the deck more effecient, it makes it suck.

Tell that to the Italians and some of the other europeans, since they have by far put up the best results with straight combo decks for the last few months.

[goober]

Crapping out is not winning before they get UU open, which happens far more often than you would expect.  I have done more goldfishing than you, and the results are always deceptive.  Yes it can go off, undisrupted, that fast.  Then you factor in Chalices, Forces, Trinisphere, Mana Drain, Wasteland, Duress, Mind Twist, and anything else.  After that you will be losing far too often to be competitive.

Draw7 is good at screwing good decks out of the Top8, then failing to do it themselves.

Death Long and TPS "crap out" by your definition more, but they also deal 20 damage to the dome for more often too.  Game plan after turn 2=tech.

[jazzykat]

I have used negators in my board for control matchups. They side out all their fire/ice, stp and stuff or they never had any (if they don't expect swarms, or have a different strategy for them...like stopping draw 7's with rebs and countering swarms). Then I go ritual first turn negator... ha ha! Making a mini tendrils is easy after one or two shots with a negator.

I don't know if using negators is the most competitive idea but first turn it makes your opponent shit themselves if they don't have removal and don't expect it!

[goober]

They side out all their fire/ice, stp and stuff or they never had any

Then they are horrible players, so you should win anyways, assuming the deck doesn't randomly make you lose.

Fire/Ice is so hot against Xantid Swarms, and they should assume you will bring those in.  If you do bring in Negators instead then they should just Fire them.  

Optimally I sww storm based combo being centered around resolving Bargain, Will, or a decent Desire.  That way you don't make your opponent find the answers they need.  I am thinking Death Long is the way to do it, but slow down the combo a bit.  Have Force/Duress/Cabal Therapy (that last one is iffy) all backing up the Wish->Will or Bargain that will win.  I am still going highly experimental with this so I don't have a decklist nearly ready.

[Purple Hat]

I agree with goober.  I think if storm combo is going to rise again in the current meta it's gotta be Death Long or TPS.  Draw7 just gets knocked back too easily by too many of the current top decks.  Death Long and TPS are a little more stable in longer tournaments because of their superior control matchup.  They don't keep refilling the opponent's hand or they play enough disruption to work through several counters or 3 sphere.

[Nehptis]

Optimally I see storm based combo being centered around resolving Bargain, Will, or a decent Desire.  That way you don't make your opponent find the answers they need.

I couldn't agree more.  Even though I won't win any popularity contests among combo deck discussions, the deck itself wins.  I have been playing Rector-Tendril's for months now, with great success.  It's basically the same core (5 color) combo build with the exception of 3 MD Rector / 3 MD Cabal T / 3 MD Duress (no FOW).

My meta is a good mix of Powered Net decks (Slavery, TOG, 4CC, Workshops, Fish, Dragon, Belcher), UnPowered versions of them, as well, and of course your Old School Sui, Sligh, and Aggro decks.  The deck philosophy is in-line as to what Goober stated in his post.  But, obviously more focused on YB.  I want to get the Bargain out ASAP so that I can draw and my opponent will not.  Since, as every ToA player knows the most devastating thing is to get stopped when you are going-off.  The best way to avoid this is to not let your opponent draw more cards (i.e. by not playing draw 7s).  The next best way to prevent disruption is by having your own disruption / protection as you are casting Draw 7s (i.e. with this deck Therapies / Duresses, with TPS it's Duress and FOWs).

I know that the main points of criticism are the potential slowness of a 3W + B "Combo" and the huge tempo loss to a Drained Rector.  To the 1st point, 1st turn wins are usually just T1 brokenness (absent of the Rector).  However, with all the acceleration in the deck, turn 2 AR/CT--> Bargain or a Draw 7 with protection is consistent.  To the 2nd point, don't play stupid.  Blindly casting a Rector head on into a counter or worse into a Drain is suicide.  Lastly, the deck can hold it's own against 3sphere, Rod, etc, hate with MD H Recall and Rebuild.  The SB of course has other Combo Deck staples, as well.   (Also, I'm currently testing the newly proposed addition of DS Colossus to the SB with favorable results thus far.)

[Mon, Goblin Chief]

Optimally I sww storm based combo being centered around resolving Bargain, Will, or a decent Desire. That way you don't make your opponent find the answers they need. I am thinking Death Long is the way to do it, but slow down the combo a bit. Have Force/Duress/Cabal Therapy (that last one is iffy) all backing up the Wish->Will or Bargain that will win. I am still going highly experimental with this so I don't have a decklist nearly ready.

You should definitly look into the italian TPS-builds, because that is exactly what those decks do. That makes them slower but harder to stop in the end.
Afaik, those are the most consistent decks with that plan so far.

[Shaman]

For reference, here you are one decklist of Italian Tendrils U/B. As it has been pointed out, this deck has a smaller win-ratio within turn 2 compared to draw-7 in goldfish, but it is much more reliable and consistent. Against an heavy artifact metagame your plan can switch from winning as fast as possible to win after you resolve a rebuild (with basic lands and fetchlands that's not too hard to achieve, expecially if you run a second rebuild maindeck that helps a lot). Well, I won't say more since this topic is about draw-7 and I don't want to talk about another deck too much. But since it has been suggested to look at it, here it is the decklist.
 
MAIN DECK
4 Duress
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Memory Jar
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
4 Dark Ritual
1 Windfall
1 Timetwister
1 Time Spiral
2 Tendrils of Agony
1 Mind's Desire
1 Rebuild
1 Cunning Wish
1 Chain of Vapor
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
1 Tinker
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Tolarian Academy
2 Swamp
2 Island
4 Underground Sea
1 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Library of Alexandria

SIDEBOARD
1 Brain Freeze
1 Echoing Truth
1 Misdirection
1 Hurkyl's Recall
4 Hydroblast
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Rebuild
1 Rushing River
1 Meditate
1 Stifle

[BreathWeapon]

What decks are you resolving the Colossus against, besides Fish and GAT? I'm a big fan of the game plan in numerous decks, but shouldn't it be kept in the SB?

[skecreatoR]

Draw7 isn't viable in any large tournament because it will randomly crap out on you. You can play the deck perfectly and just lose.

This will be one of my few posts so I will make it quick.

The above quote is the exact problem that D7 doesn't make T8s. I am an arrogant, better-knowing jerk when it comes to Draw7, but I know the exact reason it doesn't win is because it doesn't have a game plan. The deck consists of the restricted list+a few multiples here and there.

And Goober, not to be personal or anything, but you always say Draw7 is bad, and you're basing it on the large amount of goldfishing you have done with it. Obviously, you haven't learned yet to navigate with it.

It is damn hard, but as I play D7 now, I win against most decks and I absolutely think it is one of the most obvious Tier1 decks - It isn't long, but its nearly as crazy when piloted well. But the deck sure is the definite hardest deck to play 'perfect'.