Living on the edge with 1 Land Belcher

[theorigamist]

Well, after the Myriad Games tournament two weekends ago, I left for Canada before I had time to really write a report.  Now, it's probably too late.  Two weeks in the land of kilometers, 1.274$:$1, cheese plates and legal drinking made me forget a lot of specifics.  But what I can still start a thread about is my build of Belcher that I used to top8 at that tournament.  Specifically, focus on the land section:

One Land Belcher

"I-win": 25
4 Goblin Charbelcher
2 Living Wish
3 Goblin Welder
2 Xantid Swarm  
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Memory Jar
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Necropotence
1 Tainted Pact
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Windfall
1 Tinker
1 Channel
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Timetwister
1 Ancestral Recall  

Non-land mana: 34
4 Land Grant
4 Tinder Wall
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Dark Ritual
4 Chromatic Sphere
1 Cabal Ritual
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Chrome Mox
1 Grim Monolith
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Lotus Petal
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby

Lands: 1
1 Bayou

Having fifteen individual cards in my SB makes me special: 15
1 Oxidize
1 Naturalize
1 Deconstruct
1 Xantid Swarm
1 Goblin Welder
1 Elvish Lyrist
1 Scavenger Folk
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Uktabi Orangutan
1 Bone Shredder
1 Gilded Drake
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Gemstone Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Gorilla Shaman

From the generally accepted list, take out Tropical Island and two Brainstorms for Cabal Ritual and Tainted Pact (and Pearl, if you started from a 60 card list).  Nothing else is particularly intriguing in the main deck, except for one quick note about actually playing the deck.  I play combo very aggressively.  I do a lot of risky stuff I probably shouldn't do.  That won a whole lot of games for me, and I think it's the only way to play the game correctly against an unknown opponent, or against a tough matchup in game 1.  Games 2 and 3 you have to be more careful.  Also notice that I'm not kidding about that first section winning the game.  With the exception of about five cards in that section, any one will most likely immediately win you the game.  My first round opponent didn't really realize this, and so he got really pissed off when I always topdecked a broken spell that I needed.  But the deck really just is mana and "I win" spells.

Some sideboard notes:
The field had a decent amount of Workshops, so I thought "Hey, I'll load up the SB with Oxidize/Naturalize/Deconstruct (standard anyway), Welder, Elvish Lyrist, Scavenger Folk, Viridian Zealot, Uktabi Orangutan, and Shaman."  Somehow, though, I left out a Mishra's Workshop that would have been enourmously useful against Trinispheres.  I suck.

Now, with three cards different in the maindeck from a typical build, it may seem like this list is not even worth posting.  But I really would like to see more people giving some serious thought to having only one land.  Basically, what I've learned about the deck is that all the inconsistency that people always bitch about generally comes in the opening hand.  The game is decided before it starts if the Belcher player does not mulligan aggressively.  With that in mind, and the fact that I mentioned above about me playing too aggressively for my own good, I mulligan a ton.  The difference in how often I mulligan with one land or two land in the deck is negligible.  What's not negligible is the huge boost in the probability of a first or second turn kill when you activate Belcher.  It's so easy to get that one land out of the way it feels like cheating.  (Although obviously random stuff sometimes happens.  Against Landstill, in both games, I Belched second turn for five or six damage, and then had to wait and Belch again.)

The huger issue with removing a land that people often don't think about is having blue mana.  The only really necessary blue cards in the deck are Tinker, Twister, and Ancestral Recall.  That's three cards that only need 1 blue, and you've got Sapphire, Black Lotus, Lotus Petal, LED, Living Wish for Academy/Gemstone, Chromatic Spheres, and Chrome Mox.  The Windfall is less necessary.  I don't think it would be too out of line to replace it with another black tutor.  I'm a huge fan of Tainted Pacts, myself, although some people like Spoils better.  I have issues with Spoils in a deck like this.  Often you're searching not for a specific card, but for a card function.  For example, if you need a little more mana, you don't want to name Tinder Wall with Spoils and hope not to die.  Using Tainted Pact, you can start revealing and get any of 35 mana cards.  Plus my Tainted Pact is foily, giving me the false illusion that I am starting to pimp my deck (I also have a foreign Grim Monlith and one of my Welders is foreign, but my Bayou is Revised, so it kind of cancels out).

So I'd like to hear other people's opinions on the optimal use of the Tainted Pact and Cabal Ritual slots (which replace the previous Brainstorms and Tropical Island).  I somewhat randomly chose those cards, trying to replace function with function (drop a land, add a Ritual; drop card digging, add a tutor).  Also, I am not sold on having Tendrils in the deck at all.  It's very situational, and it's such a mana whore.  (The only times it came up at all in my testing was when I could play multiple Dark Rituals, YWill, more Rituals, and some combinations of LED/Black Lotus/Lotus Petal.  It also was mildly useful in a game I played before the tournament against Tog, in which having both a Belcher and Tendrils in a fresh hand off a draw 7 allowed me to not worry about counters.  However, any other really strong business spell in that same slot would have done the same thing.

Overall I had a great time at the tournament.  It was my first type 1 tournament, and hopefully I'll check out a couple more in NE this summer before I head off to college and forfeit my free time to Hold 'Em (sidenote: slops to the guy who took my Kaboom!s in crap rare Hold 'Em at Myriad Games) and pool (<3 having a pool hall on the first floor of the dorm).

[Ifflejink]

Overall, I like the decklist, and I have a few things that I would like to say/ask.
1. Why is your one land a Bayou? It doesn't seem that you would want to ever play it, except possibly in a situation where you would use Tendrils, and, as you stated, those are rare. Wouldn't your Belches be more consistent if your one land were something like Taiga or Badlands?
2. In the budget version of Belcher, Darksteel Colossus is used instead of Tendrils. In my playtesting, it's been quite effective, and it's basically unstoppable unless you run into StP. Plus, it's not too hard to get play, and it gets around Null Rod.
Anyway, good luck with the deck.

[goober]

Why is your one land a Bayou? It doesn't seem that you would want to ever play it, except possibly in a situation where you would use Tendrils, and, as you stated, those are rare. Wouldn't your Belches be more consistent if your one land were something like Taiga or Badlands?

Look at his decklist again, it is pretty obvious.  The only debatable replacement is Tropical Island, but I still perfer Bayou because of Rituals.

This is a small thing but I think Cabal Ritual should be a 2 or 3 of, possibly replacing Tainted Pact and a Chromatic Sphere.

[theorigamist]

1. Why is your one land a Bayou? It doesn't seem that you would want to ever play it, except possibly in a situation where you would use Tendrils, and, as you stated, those are rare. Wouldn't your Belches be more consistent if your one land were something like Taiga or Badlands?

Badlands is out because it's not a Forest, so it can't be Land Granted.  Why is Taiga that good of an option?  Red cards: Wheel, Welder.  Black cards: Will, D. Tutor, V. Tutor, Tainted Pact, Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual, Consult, Necro, Tendrils.  Plus Tinder Walls, Mox Ruby, and Chromatic Spheres already give you the red mana you need, whereas you may need multiple black mana.

2. In the budget version of Belcher, Darksteel Colossus is used instead of Tendrils. In my playtesting, it's been quite effective, and it's basically unstoppable unless you run into StP. Plus, it's not too hard to get play, and it gets around Null Rod.

I had a budget version for a while (I used the powered version because there were 10 proxies).  If I remember correctly, there were still Brainstorms in the deck.  In this deck, if I draw Collosus I'm screwed.  I can't BS it back and then Tinker for it, and I can't discard it.

This is a small thing but I think Cabal Ritual should be a 2 or 3 of, possibly replacing Tainted Pact and a Chromatic Sphere.

I don't want to remove any tutors from this deck.  If anything I would add more Pacts.  Cabal Ritual could only really replace Chromatic Spheres (the least necessary mana card), but I wouldn't even do that because the color fixing becomes more important in a one-land build.

[WildWillieWonderboy]

The spoils or pact question is is basically a mana question. If you find that it can reliably be cast in the same positions as spoils, go for it. I would think that with the sheer threat density of the deck xantids could be replaced with some kind of draw or tutors. Not to mention, xantids take a full turn to go online. I'm going to go a bit further and say that the draw spells used should definately not be brainstorm. When you peep the top 3, you're generally looking for one card, and it will be one that shuffles your deck, allows you to play one that shuffles your deck or win. As such, some straight up draw would be better. Night's Whisper would allow you to take advantage of the number of business cards in your deck by giving you more must counters than your opponent can match with FoW.

[Klep]

2. In the budget version of Belcher,

This is a terrible idea.  Budget implies a lack of Moxen, Lotus, and Timetwister.  What the hell are you thinking?

Darksteel Colossus is used instead of Tendrils. In my playtesting, it's been quite effective, and it's basically unstoppable unless you run into StP.

You mean the key spot removal in the most common control deck in the format.  Good thinking.

Night's Whisper would allow you to take advantage of the number of business cards in your deck by giving you more must counters than your opponent can match with FoW.

There are two big problems with this.  First, Night's Whisper is a sorcery that costs 2 mana.  Brainstorm is an instant that costs 1 mana.  The difference between the two in this deck is immeasurably significant.  Second, there are already more must counters in this deck than your opponent can match with Force.  4 Belchers, 3 Goblin Welder, 2 Xantid Swarm, 1 Necropotence, 1 Tinker, 1 Channel, 1 Yawgmoth's Will,  1 Ancestral Recall.  That looks like 14 cards that cannot be allowed to resolve.  You don't need more.

[Ifflejink]

I was using ideas from the budget Belcher. There is a decent topic about it in the budget forum, and the deck isn't that bad. If you wanted to say that building a budget Belcher deck was a terrible idea, you should have posted it in the proper thread.

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

I heard mentioned earlier about using hunting pack in place of tendrils as an alternate win.  You only really need a 3-4 storm and it will probably kill your opponent as mass removal that can take out 4/4s isn't exactly common.  It seems alot easier to do stuff with than tendrils.  I find that getting up to a storm count of 9-10 range is quite rare.  The only disadvantage would be that the win isn't instant, but it still seems to be effective.

I am also not sure about the xantids.  In some matchups they are useless and even when they do come in handy they are slow to set up and vulnerable to removal.  I would sb them and hope that any control player sides out removal against you.

[theorigamist]

The spoils or pact question is is basically a mana question. If you find that it can reliably be cast in the same positions as spoils, go for it. I would think that with the sheer threat density of the deck xantids could be replaced with some kind of draw or tutors. Not to mention, xantids take a full turn to go online. I'm going to go a bit further and say that the draw spells used should definately not be brainstorm. When you peep the top 3, you're generally looking for one card, and it will be one that shuffles your deck, allows you to play one that shuffles your deck or win. As such, some straight up draw would be better. Night's Whisper would allow you to take advantage of the number of business cards in your deck by giving you more must counters than your opponent can match with FoW.

The extra mana has rarely been a problem for me with Pact.  The effect is so much less risky that it's well worth one more mana.  I tried Whisper for a while but it wasn't generally useful.  Your two cards are likely to both be mana, and you can't use it to dig EOT like with Brainstorm (which I also don't use).  Brainstorm would definitely make its way into the deck before Night's Whisper.

This is a terrible idea. Budget implies a lack of Moxen, Lotus, and Timetwister. What the hell are you thinking?

The budget version is very powerful.  It's obviously not as fast as the powered version, but don't just dismiss it because it doesn't have Moxen.  Also, I don't want to turn this thread into a discussion about the viability of a budget version.

You mean the key spot removal in the most common control deck in the format. Good thinking.

Tendrils vs. Collosus is a call you have to make depending on what decks you're facing.  Obviously against 4CC you'd rather have Tendrils.  But against Fish/random aggro/most Workshop decks, you'd rather have Collosus.  And since Workshop decks are a much bigger problem to Belcher, I'd probably go with the Collosus for now, just because Tendrils has been so unspectacular.

I heard mentioned earlier about using hunting pack in place of tendrils as an alternate win. You only really need a 3-4 storm and it will probably kill your opponent as mass removal that can take out 4/4s isn't exactly common. It seems alot easier to do stuff with than tendrils. I find that getting up to a storm count of 9-10 range is quite rare. The only disadvantage would be that the win isn't instant, but it still seems to be effective.

The decks storm helps against are decks with counters, i.e. Tog and 4CC.  Tog has Tog to try to handle your 4/4s, and 4CC has 4/5 Angels and StP.  I don't really see Hunting Pack shoring up any weaknesses there.

I am also not sure about the xantids. In some matchups they are useless and even when they do come in handy they are slow to set up and vulnerable to removal. I would sb them and hope that any control player sides out removal against you.

I totally agree with this.  As I said before, I think the Workshop matchups are much more difficult than the control matchups (although obviously neither is enjoyable).  At Myriad Games, I pulled off some wins against Hulk, GaT, and Landstill, but I lost to Trinispheres and Null Rods every single time.  I'm not sure what to put in the Xantid slots that would make the Workshop matches better except some random catch-alls like Chain of Vapor.  Perhaps in those two slots Chain of Vapor and a third Living Wish could be used.  With more Wishes, you could afford to use one to fetch blue mana out of the sideboard.  If you're willing to do that, then you can add blue back to the maindeck.  I wouldn't put Brainstorms back in, but I have been seriously considering Lim-Dul's Vault.  There are very few tutors that are cheap, instant speed, and unrestricted.  Vault, in my opinion, has not been explored nearly enough.

[KitzuneNinja]

You only really need a 3-4 storm and it will probably kill your opponent as mass removal that can take out 4/4s isn't
exactly common.  It seems alot easier to do stuff with than tendrils.

To take out 4/4 token creatures:

Tog has: Deed for 0 (deed whitch would be dead otherwise)
              Tog himself can take down a pair of these or untap and berzerk
              your bottom.

4cc has: Balance, StP and Angel (it feels like I've forgotten something, but)

Plus, the mana cost on Hunting Pack hurts more than Tendrils.

[theorigamist]

I'd like to move the discussion away from the alternate win to discuss the advantages/disadvantages of the one land vs. two land deck, because that's really the reason I started this thread.  Here are my feelings:

Two land Belcher:
For obvious reasons, this deck will run into land far more often than one land Belcher.  I think that the only way to make that risk worthwhile (in other words, to minimize that risk and make the deck worth playing) would be to include Lim-Dul's Vault, which I've been pitching in the Death Long thread as the best setup card in the game.  A two land build would have the blue mana to reliably use Vault.  I also think that the two land build could fit in some FoW, which people have been trying for but have not had enough blue spells.  Between Mystical, Twister, Ancestral, Windfall, BS, Tinker and Vault (and the Forces themselves) the deck could potentially have the blue it needs.  (Obviously cutting Xantids would provide the space for FoW, and replacing Xantids with Forces would speed the deck up by at least the turn it takes for Xantid to lose summoning sickness.)

One land Belcher:
I really think this would be the way to go if blue draw and search weren't so damn powerful.  The one land absolutely cannot be Tropical Island, because black is much harder to cut out.  Brainstorms were easy to toss when I brought this to Myriad Games.  But the black spells in the deck are such bombs (Necro, DT, VT, Consult, DARK RITUAL) that black mana is so much less dispensible.  So, given that the one land has to be Bayou (so it would probably strain the deck too much to use Vaults), that leaves either more Tainted Pacts or Spoils of the Vault.  Obviously FoW is not an option, but I wonder if Duress would be better anti-hate than Xantids.  Like I've mentioned a few times before, I think Workshop decks are this deck's biggest problem, so Duress would be stronger than Xantids.

In a while, I'll probably just sit down and decide which cards are absolutely uncuttable, and then I'll fill in the blanks for both one-land and two-land builds.  I'll post that when I can.

[BreathWeapon]

Trying to "shop" proof Belcher is a fruitless adventure. The match up will ultimately always come down to the initaitive. I learned this lesson the hard way with Spoils-Dragon, and it had Duress + Unmask. If it bothers you that match, just board a fistful of Oxidizes.

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

Force in 2 land belcher seems like the best option, if you're afraid of trinisphere&co. Oxidize only works if you are going first, or you're holding land, ESG x 2. With force, you can surprise random opponents and de-pants them. Also, drop the tendrils already. It blows. You have to resolve a draw 7, play almost all the cards in the draw 7 seven hand, still manage to have 4 mana up, and be holding a tendrils. This isn't draw 7. I think colossus vs. nullrdod.dec is the best option.

-Bob

[theorigamist]

Force in 2 land belcher seems like the best option, if you're afraid of trinisphere&co. Oxidize only works if you are going first, or you're holding land, ESG x 2.

I agree.

Also, drop the tendrils already. It blows.

I agree, but I'd like to point out that mana isn't really the problem.  I've rarely used Tendrils as a kill card, but I didn't play any FCG or Fish, and I'd imagine that storm of 6 or 7 can really devastate aggro decks.  On the other hand, so can Collosus, and he also helps against Null Rod.

I think colossus vs. nullrdod.dec is the best option.

I agree.

Trying to "shop" proof Belcher is a fruitless adventure.

Not entirely fruitless.  I had a nectarine tonight.  Here's my take on a two land build:

Two Land Belcher

Card drawing: 11
2 Brainstorm
1 Necropotence
1 Twister
1 Windfall
1 Jar
1 Wheel
1 Ancestral
1 Will
2 Welder (unless I'm playing against counters, these usually recur Jars, so I put them here)

Tutors: 6
2 Lim-Dul's Vault
1 Consult
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Tinker

Anti-Rod/creatures: 1
1 Darksteel Collosus

Anti-Shop: 4
3 Force of Will
1 Chain of Vapor

Mana: 34
4 Dark Ritual
4 Land Grant
4 ESG
4 Tinder Wall
2 Chromatic Sphere
1 Channel
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Black Lotus
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Chrome Mox
1 Lotus Petal
1 Grim Monolith

Their powers combined: 4
4 Goblin Charbelcher

The game plan against BOTH Null Rod and other Shop usually involves Collosus.  I noticed playing against Stax with Crucible at Myriad Games that even if you can play the Belcher, they will, given one extra turn, deny you of the mana to activate it.  Therefore, unless you can play and activate the Belcher on a single turn, you're better off Tinkering out Collosus.  Certainly against Null Rods Collosus becomes the win.

Vault is awesome.  It's a cheap instant speed tutor that can pitch to FoW.  I have loved it in my limited playtesting in the last couple of days, but not as much as I've loved the two I stuck in Death Long in testing the last couple of days.  I honestly didn't think they'd be as good in Belcher as in Death Long, but since I stuck back Brainstorms and reliable blue mana, I can almost always draw whatever I set up.

Since there are still only 12 blue cards in the deck, I couldn't justify 4 Force of Will to myself (nor could I find space for the 4th FoW, let alone at least 4 more blue cards beyond that).  So three seems like a decent number for now.

I think overall the two land version with Force and Chain as maindeck answers is probably better than the one land version.  I just really hate activating Belcher with a land still in the deck.  I like assurance with my combo.  Even if you can't win every time, the times you're going to win, you should know it right away.  But so far I've had little trouble getting both lands out of the deck on the first or second turn, so I'll keep testing.  I might be going to a tournament on the 14th, so I'll see if any of my work has paid off by then.

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

hmmm....I really like belcher w/ force...it just seems that it's hard to fit in, so I'll chime in on some thoughts:

1) Upping the brainstorm count. With so many bombs/shuffle effects that belcher has, I don't think it's that unreasonable to run 4 brainstorms. This means tropical almost becomes more important than bayou, but such is life.

2) Following in the failure of Draw7 and the success of UB TPS, has anyone thought of making belcher more consistent and less "broken"? Mana severance may be an option. While it is a 2 card combo, it guarantees a win, and it allows you to run more blue cards and more lands. Granted turn 1 kills are near impossible, but hey, it may be an option.

Basically, if belcher can fit in force of will, I believe it becomes a much more serious threat to the metagame. Instead of people parising down to force + blue card, or Workshop + Trinisphere and winning the game, you can catch them with their pants down with force.

Finally, I question welder's inclusion in Belcher. It is really strong vs. control, but really ass vs. workshop, which is the bigger threat. With 2-3 living wish MD, I find welders to be a bit excessive.

[Mathman07]

@Clown

Welder is one of the most important cards in belcher.

Welder does the following useful things:

Recurs belcher
Recurs Jar
Recurs mana sources (monolith, crypt, vault, etc.) for more mana
Welds out opposing null rods, trinispheres, etc.
Gets around COTV by returning stuff countered by Chalice.

I agree that welder is not great against workshop decks, but against any deck with FOW you need ways to recur welders.  FOW is more common than workshop.  The tempo lost when living wishing for welder is large - 1GR is 3 times as much as R.  Granted, the red mana is the hardest to obtain, but against workshop decks especially you need to drop lots of mana sources and use an early welder to disrupt the workshop deck.  On another note, what would you replace them [welders] with that would be better against workshop decks (without radically changing the deck by adding FOW).

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

That's the problem.  If they go first and drop a trinishpere belcher scoops, and fow is the only thing that can stop that.  The solution is to just accept that you lose to workshop decks playing second, 98% of the time, and thus not play belcher in a meta with a heavy workshop component.  

I think that adding FOW bastardises the deck.  Belcher should rely on pure speed and the resiliency of goblin welder/other threats to beat control, not on things like fow/xantid/duress, etc.  Just try to go off as quickly as possible with another threat ready if they stop you (ex, draw 7, wedler, etc).  That is way better than trying to go off when protected.  Constant pressure and an overwhelming number of threats is the key to beating control.

[theorigamist]

I think that adding FOW bastardises the deck. Belcher should rely on pure speed and the resiliency of goblin welder/other threats to beat control, not on things like fow/xantid/duress, etc. Just try to go off as quickly as possible with another threat ready if they stop you (ex, draw 7, wedler, etc). That is way better than trying to go off when protected. Constant pressure and an overwhelming number of threats is the key to beating control.

I have heard the argument all over the place that adding Force goes against the nature of the deck.  But the fact is, if the "nature of the deck" doesn't beat a major component of the metagame, then people should stop their whining about the nature of the deck and do something to fix the problem.  Look at the two land build I posted with Forces.  I didn't sacrifice the powerful pressure cards.  I dropped Xantids.  Just accept that if the deck needs to change, then it needs to change.

[BreathWeapon]

I completely disagree with the "Needs to Change" sentiment. I've been down this road before, hell I think I was the first person to go down this road with FoW in Belcher. The moment you feel that FoW is reducing the speed and stability of this deck, it should be cut. Belcher is always going to be a Metagame Combo deck. 13-14 U cards is not enough to reliably keep Trinisphere off the Table, and even then you'll pitch either a D7 or a Brainstorm to do it. After that, your by no meens guaranteed to have achieved anything short of running out of steam. Being in Top Deck mode vs Workshop is "usually" just as good as a game loss. There is no need to bastardize a deck to improve a 50/50 match up against Shops, simply tune it vs 4cc and Fish. If you want to play a Combo deck that's favorable vs Prison, play Dragon. Honestly, I can't imagine a metagame consisting of enough Shops to make adding FoW to the deck (Which sucks against Control) a viable metagame option. Its one thing to consider what options would improve the deck on a theoretical level and another to consider how those options will actually work IRL.

Moving on, cutting Goblin Welder is an absolute No-no. Welder, unlike any other Disruption for Combo, allows you to play your threats first and ask questions later. Alternatively, he can be played first to bait FoW or Weld in a Belcher after a Draw 7. Belcher is a Tempo-Oriented Combo deck on the same level as D7 or Dragon, because it has Goblin Welder at its disposal. I'd cut Ancestral before I cut a Welder.

At any rate, has any one experimented with removing Chromatic Spheres for Birds of Paradise to increase the decks mana stability? I haven't had enough time to test the idea myself, but I've had some major issues with having the appropriate colored Mana Sources in 2 Land Belcher for awhile now. Does any one think the loss in speed would be marginal enough to permit Birds to stabilize the manabase?

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

I think you said it pretty well.

About the bop thing, I have tried it, but I found that setting up a bop and then waiting a turn often slowed me down too much.  Spehere cantrips and gives you the mana NOW, which is what makes the difference.  Also, it can be cast off colourless.

[BreathWeapon]

I agree with the the theoretical argument of why BoP is bad, however I'm trying to remember how many games having a BoP instead of a Chromatic Sphere in my hand would have slowed my win down. In most instances, I think those hands involved Dark Ritual in some form. I've seen Budget Belcher lists get along with it, but that isn't much an excuse

[theorigamist]

RE: Force of Will:  You are completely ignoring what they're replacing.  They're replacing the Xantids.  Do people honestly think the deck needs 3 Welder and 2 Xantids game one against 4CC in addition to its speed?  I sure don't.  Force of Will doesn't slow the game down.  I'm perfectly willing to toss a Brainstorm if I follow up with a draw7.  I'm aware 13-14 blue cards is low, but that's why there are only 3 Force in my most recent list.  Also, Force is not horrible against control.  It's just not as good as Xantid.  You can SB in Xantids for games 2 and 3.  But game 1, Force will catch them off guard and force them to play around it.  It can also catch their random bombs like Ancestral or Will.  

Its one thing to consider what options would improve the deck on a theoretical level and another to consider how those options will actually work IRL.

 I have played the deck IRL.  I'm not saying that to make this into a pissing contest.  I just mean don't assume I'm using only theory.  Since Belcher is basically the only deck I can afford to play, I test it as much as I can.

Welder will not leave this maindeck.  Period.  Let's waste no more time on that subject.

At any rate, has any one experimented with removing Chromatic Spheres for Birds of Paradise to increase the decks mana stability?

I thought about it, although I haven't yet tried it.  In my mind it doesn't make sense, so I haven't wasted any time on it.  But I will at some point, just to prove to myself that it won't work.  Aside from summoning sickness and the lack of cantrip, Birds also get Fired and StPed.  While some might argue that Birds prevent that removal from being used on Welders or Xantids, what those people ignore is the time it takes up.  You have just spent a turn to lose the mana cards that you really need.  With the duals in the deck restricted to green/x, you can't afford to lose your mana filtering ability.

I had problems with colors when I first picked up the deck as well, because I was ignoring the red from Tinder Walls and I was using Chromatic Spheres wastefully.  You just have to be careful what colored mana you use to cast colorless mana (like Vault or Monolith), and make sure to float the right colors before you draw7 (black has priority almost always, and other colors depend on what you've played and what you need at the time).

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

1) Ok, you were all right, welder is a must. I won't go any further on this, as everyone has beat this to death.

2) I still argue for the inclusion of Force. Like orgamist said, look at the cards he's taking out. Xantid swarm is pretty good, but force does basically the same thing vs. control. It makes the control player have to have double counter back up in order to beat you. If thats the case, you were probably going to lose anyway. Also, another subtle point is that you can force a duress. Xantid does nothing when tog goes turn 1 duress and takes your bomb. Also, I don't see how force slows down the kill. You aren't replacing mana sources or anything with them, you're replacing swarms.

3) If workshop's become huge, I would make a point to try out Vineyards. Going first, if you play vineyard, you basically nullify trinisphere. Also, you can blow your wad turn 1 by tropping a belcher and vineyard and not worry about the opponent shutting you off 3 mana during your next turn.

[BreathWeapon]

Trinisphere on the play isn't a major issue, its only a bitch on the draw for Belcher. While adding FoW isn't removing good cards from Orgamist's build, it isn't adding good cards to his build either IMO. I encourage you to test FoW, so you can see what we meen. With out having a sufficient U count to really support FoW your often left shooting blanks.

How many quality U cards can the deck run before it hits Chaff?

4xForce of Will
4xBrainstorm
1xAncestral Recall
1xTinker
1xTimetwister
1xWindfall
1xMystical Tutor (I wouldn't play this unless I had Tinker->Colossus)

After that the only sensical cards would be Hurkyl's at 2x. That's 15, maybe 16 if you used the much maligned Time Walk?

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

Xantids also slow down the kill.  Control can be beat simply by speed and threat redundancy alone, as I previously mentioned.  Read Steve's belcher vs tog matchup analysis at SCG.  The belcher deck won by a narrow margin despite not having xantids or fows.  Mana, threats, and draw is what belcher needs to suceed.  Like I said, just accept that you lose to sph3re on the draw.  Adding xantids and fows and shit will just mess with the consistancy of an already inconsistent deck.

[Lucentspirit]

Belcher does sometimes have a problem producing the correct color mana. Until recently I used 2 mana cylix in addition to the 4 chromatic spheres. Since then I've switched to 1 mana cylix in favor of an additional maindeck welder. When I had the 2 addtional cylix I almost never had a lack of the correct color mana.  I decided to put in the welder over the second cylix to free up a side board slot as well as up the "bomb" count in the deck. I do get color screwed on occation now, but I'm pretty content with cylix in the deck.
      As far as the trinistax match-up goes .... if I'm going second I expect a first turn sphere of resistance or trinisphere from them (if they don't mull into one they need to learn their matchups better).  Rather then scoop I side in all my land from the side board (1 workshop, 1 gemstone, and 1 taiga) as well as my artifact hate (most notable artifact mutation). Winning the game isn't so much belching for a win it's a game of gaining permanent advantage. If you can cast artifact mutation it's usually game.  If belcher goes first then I'll still side in artifact mutation and other hate, but leave out the extra land.

[theorigamist]

3) If workshop's become huge, I would make a point to try out Vineyards. Going first, if you play vineyard, you basically nullify trinisphere. Also, you can blow your wad turn 1 by tropping a belcher and vineyard and not worry about the opponent shutting you off 3 mana during your next turn.

But now you're focusing too much on Trinisphere.  What if you drop Vineyard and they go Shop, Sphere of Resistance (then 3sphere or not, it doesn't matter)?  Then you're screwed again.  They'll be mulliganing for a first turn 3sphere if they know the deck, but they'll accept any first turn lock-ish card if they see Vineyards.

Also, I don't see how force slows down the kill. You aren't replacing mana sources or anything with them, you're replacing swarms.

The argument about Force slowing you down is that you have to pitch a card drawer/tutor to use it.  However, this hasn't been a problem for me yet, nor has the blue count since I only run 3 Force.

How many quality U cards can the deck run before it hits Chaff?
*list*

Who runs 4 Brainstorm?  Three is pushing it, but I wouldn't run more than 2.  You also forgot Lim-Dul's Vault, which is a very powerful card in Belcher that many people, myself included, have previously ignored.

I side in all my land from the side board (1 workshop, 1 gemstone, and 1 taiga) as well as my artifact hate (most notable artifact mutation).

What do you side out for lands, though?  It sounds like a good idea, though.  I'll try that and see what happens.

[Mathman07]

@theorigamist:

1

The argument about Force slowing you down is that you have to pitch a card drawer/tutor to use it. However, this hasn't been a problem for me yet, nor has the blue count since I only run 3 Force

Excuse me, but the only blue cards in your deck are tutor / draw and other FOWs.  Unless you don't count brainstorm as draw.

2

Lim-Dul's Vault has only compounded mana problems for me, but it is very powerful.  

3

I agree that vineyard won't really help against workshop decks.  I'm not sure how many extra lands you could fit / would want to fit on the SB to put in against Workshop.  The only issue with more lands is that they can lock you before you kill them.  Ancient Tomb works pretty well as another land to board in, because it can pay for Draw 7s, Belchers + activation.

4

Is 34 mana sources enough?  I find that 37-39 is the right number.  Also, you don't have living wish.  I find that wish is very powerful, and that mana sources are at a premium.

[glenchuy]

How many quality U cards can the deck run before it hits Chaff?
4xBrainstorm

well, you can play 2x Bstorm, 2x Lim Dul's Vault.  

i'm currently running the 2 land version, but yes there are times when i drop a turn 1 belcher, belch next turn, run into first land, belch next turn, run into another land, and then have opponent drop rod.  

i haven't tested the 1 land version yet, but playing the 2 land version, there are already games where mana is so tight, getting to choose between which lands to pick on land grant is clutch-  

i suppose bayous would be the better land to leave- but then, dropping tropicals would only leave you with (loti, LED, 2x mox, petal, 4x sphere = 9) as opposed to (everything mentioned, 4x grant, 1x trops = 14)  and sometimes those 14 is even short!

[BreathWeapon]

I used 4 Brainstorms because I hate Lim-Duls vault with a passion in Belcher. It is one of the single most inconsistant cards in an already inconsistant deck, and Brainstorms work just fine.

I haven't had major issues with 2 Land Blecher choking on Lands when trying to go off, and even if I did I think that Windfall and Brainstorms would be worth the risk.

Has anybody tried Bargain as Potence #2?