[Deck] Superball rUb

[Crazy_Mykl]

//Manabase

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Saphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Grim Monolith

1 Strip Mine
4 Island
4 Shivan Reef
4 Volcanic Island

//Combo

4 Vedalken Archmage
4 Words of Wind

//Kill

3 Brain Freeze

//Broken

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Timetwister
1 Tinker
1 Memory Jar
1 Wheel of Fortune

//Draw

3 Serum Visions
3 Deep Analysis
1 Frantic Search

//Tutor

1 Mystical Tutor
3 Intuition

//Countermagic

4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain

This deck is designed as mono-blue combo-control, and is still being refined. It tests pretty well, but I'd like the people here's opinions.

The combo is Vedalken Archmage and Words of Wind. When these two are in play, on your draw step you tap an a mox to pay for words, bouncing the mox. You then replay the mox in your main phase, taping it to pay for words in responce to archmage. Lather, Rinse, Repeat, bouncing an opponent's permanent each time, until they are without permanents. (Note that sol ring and grim monolith work in place of moxen, and so do vault and crypt, but you must use words as a mana sink, or refrain from tapping them on each iteration of the loop.) This combo can be repeated every turn.

The kill comes from the Brain Freeze, cast off the infinite (okay, "arbitrarily large") storm count from the combo.

I have yet to find a way to work in the Wastelands; as I don't know if going below 13 blue sources is smart...

I am also wondering if their is a better blue way to tutor for words/archmage than intuition, since intuition is also nice for making AKs big-big.

Also, is a black splash viable?

Please critique fairly, and make suggestions for improvement.

EDIT: I also need a sideboard, but I just can't think of one. Guess that's why I post in newbie...

EDIT2: Re-upped kill count to three, after additional testing....

EDIT3: More list modifications, now i got Superball U/r

[cardiffgiant]

Not quite a tutor, but it might help, Ancestral Knowledge. It allows you to stack the top 10 cards of you library, removing any you don't want.

I personally don't think AK is good enough draw for combo. You'd be better with Tolarian Wind (you loss a card, but dig deep).

Also, without shuffling effects, Brainstorm is a bit weak. Would Serum Visions be better?

Good luck

[Marton]

Well, I will start off with exactly what I think. Cute 3 cards combos that don't win you the game are not viable in this format. I have said it many times on other threads on other combo decks. While you can get your combo in play rather quickly, you just really lack the tutors. The card drawing may make up for it, but generally you want tutors.

While this deck may work out, it requires 2 cards to be in play to be able to do something. vedalken archmage and winds of change are so-so cards when used alone (by todays standards). Both of theses cards costs 4 mana, which really hinders the competitiveness of the deck. The more cards the combo requires to be played, the easier it is to disrupt, and the slower it is to kill. Theses days you need 1 or 2 cards combo that win you the game to be competitive (think dragon (which really only needs you to play only 1 card - the reanimator) and belcher).

I like some ideas, but just keep in mind that the combo is fragile, particularly with the archmage. chalice of the void and trinisphere will really hurt you too. Also, keep in mind that your deck will have a hard time dealing with removing permanents in play, since your only solution to those is force/mana drain and words of wind. Words of wind when used alone is only good when you have more mox than your opponent into play, so you can't always count on it to deal with all the stuff that force/drain missed,

-marton

[Crazy_Mykl]

@cardiffgiant:
I can't afford to lose any counters I might be holding to a Tolarian Winds,  so that's out, good as it might've been.

However, the other two suggestions are good, and will be implemented. *goes to update decklist*

@Marton: I agree that this deck, in its current state, is highly imperfect. I don't really consider the mana artifact a "card" because it is highly unlikely I don't get at least one out, and although this combo doesn't win outright (w/o the freeze), it does completely destroy thier board position, and very few decks can recover from that. Also, Words of Wind costs 3 (2U) not 4. Also note this is not combo, but combo-control. Intuition is almost as good as a tutor here, but not quite. Also remember, dragon needs to resolve a reanimator under very precise conditions (i.e. Dragon and other man in 'yard, win condition somewhere accessable), and can fail spectacullarly, losing you all your permanents. Does that make this superior to an optimized dragon build? Not a chance. But this (hopefully) has some potential...

[Marton]

For a while I thought you were trying to say that this deck was better than dragon. Yes dragon requires some cards to be set up to work, but the thing is that to actually win all you need is to actually PLAY only ONE card. If you start by bazaar, activate bazaar, drop dragon, then play 2 mox and reanimator, you won the game because the bazaar will fetch your laquatus. All you needed to do was to play one animate dead essentially. Belcher oretty much only needs to play one card to win too.

I dont consider the moxes part of your combo either, but to win you still need to actually PLAY 2 cards (ignoring the brainfreeze part because you can automatically draw-it and pay for it once the 2 other cards are in play). This is more whats bugging me. Not trying to nitpick, but even though the words of winds costs 3, it still costs another 1 to use (the first time), essentially making it costs 4 too.

With that said, I do agree that usually it's game once the combo is in play. What the deck needs is mostly speedup and tutors. I think what I would do would be to try out draw-7s as 'tutors', since you pack so many accelerants. Probably wheel of fortune and memory jar.

[cardiffgiant]

FWIW I think the deck needs some works, but has a lot of potential.

If you want to make the deck less dependent on WoW and Archmage, look at Hurkyl's Recall and Retract. This allows you to double the number of spells within a turn.

Although it's a bit risky, you could use Isochron Scepters. Putting Brain Freeze or Retract or Fork on them could be great.

Assuming this should play like a combo deck, the Deep Analysis aren't good enough (even with intuition). Possibly try Windfall and Meditation or even Mental Note.

Also, if you want a splash, I wouldn't use red. Black is probably better with Demonic Tutor, Spoils of the Vault, Skeletal Scrying, and Yawgmoth's Will. You also get Disciples of the Vault as an alternate win.

Lastly, how well does your mana work? Do you find the deck stalling because you don't have enough to keep going on a single turn?

Good luck

[Lyhrrus]

Why red?  The only red spell I see is Wheel.  Run Windfall instead.  You don't have welders or anything else red, and yet you're using Shivan Reefs and Volcanic Islands.  I'd cut them for basic islands and fetches, so you can have Brainstorm and you're less vulnerable to NBLH.

[BloodyClownSuit]

interesting deck.

how does it stand up to SlapJack? you know, the combo deck that goes straight for your nuts on turn 4 or 5. how do you deal?

[Marton]

the intuitions and deep analysis *really* seems too slow for a combo deck. Personally I would never cut red, because wheel of fortune is so damn good.

conserning card choices.

if I were to do a major re-haul of the deck, here would be my first take at it. first, cut 1 brain freeze, going down to 2. the idea here is that your deck *should*, in my opinion, pack lots of tutors and draw cards, essentially resembling a belcher deck (which also takes near 8 mana to play/use the belcher). packing more (good) draw card and tutors would make the need for brain freeze less of an issue.

Whatever the mana base you end up with, ideally try to have 3-4 blue fetchlands in it. its important for the next 4 brainstorms that im adding to it. windfall is most notably missing, but this is a hard call that requires actual testing of the deck to determine if it is good enough in there. you *might* want to reconsider the mana drains, because there isn`t much mana sinks in there.

In the cut list, definately all your draw and tutors section. Yes, that means all the serum visions, the deep analysis, the frantic search, the lone mystical tutor that doesnt seem to have any important targets, and the odd 3 intuitions that don't do much more than costing too much mana for an effect that is sub-par to a real tutor (since you can't use the cards in your graveyard). I will explain the cuts for those I didn`t explain yet. serum visions is a sorcery and simply really really underpowered. You're playing control, you need those mana on your opponent's turn. deep analysis is way too slow for a combo deck. heck, even the nights whispers i hate so much makes more sense in this deck. I have not much else to say on the frantic search other than 'why?'. You play combo. You're supposed to kill BEFORE turn 3. the effect is very sub-par, and NOT abusable in your deck. the card reads: '-1 card advantage' in your deck. I already covered the mystical tutor and intuitions above. I will also mention that I am not sure about the fact or fiction because it costs 4. The strip mine is very random. You're playing combo (essentially). Combo should win fast.

so, heres what we cut:

-1 strip mine
-1 brainfreeze
-3 serum visions
-3 deep analysis
-1 frantic search
-1 mystical tutor
-3 intuition
(-1 fact or fiction) // perhaps later

total: -12 cards

and now for what we add.

+1 tolarian academy (duh)
+4 brainstorm
+4 dark ritual
+1 demonic tutor
+1 vampiric tutor (to test)
+1 windfall (to test)
+1 necropotence
+1 yawgmoth's bargain
+1 mind's desire

(+ fetchlands)

total +15 cards

the idea behind the card choices for stuff we add is that we really aim for quicker kill. you might want to try and put 1-2 skeletal scrying, 1-2 hurkyl's recall. Also you might want to put in mox diamond and/or lotus petal. tolarian should have been there from day 1. All the other card choices are fairly standard cards for combo/tendrils decks, which really is what this deck tries to accomplish. I would very likely cut 2-3 more lands (in addition to the strip mine that is) for the extra cards, since you seem to have a few too many.

another thing that requires testing: you might want to try replacing the brain freeze with cunning wish, and put the brain freeze on the sidebord. when you get your combo, you seem to be able to generate a few mana, up to a point where the brain freeze or the cunning wish dont make a difference.

BTW, if you arent sure about what to add, I greatly recommend you check out the list I posted here, it really helps a lot for deckbuilding.
http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=18568

-marton

[cardiffgiant]

Marton - I think you have some good suggestions, but there are a few I'd disagree with.

Vampiric Tutor - this is strictly inferior to Demonic Consultation or Spoils of the Vault

Yawgmoth's Bargain - way to expensive. Skeletal Scrying or Reading the Runes would be more generally effective.


Mykl - I've thought more about your deck.

One problem is it lacks some synergy. Having WoW without Archmage is dead. I don't thing there are enough artifacts, draw, or tutors to get WoW if you have Archmage.

In a lot of ways, WoW combos better with Argothian Enchantress, Femeref Enchantress, and Replenish. Artifacts become Wild Growth, and Gaea's Touch. Serra's Sanctum gives lots of mana.

Just some thoughts.

[Marton]

yawgmoths bargain/minds desires is playable if you do all the changes I suggested. I added 4 dark ritual and more card drawer, which allows for casting it. while vampiric tutor card disadvantage really sucks, I gave it the nod over consultation because consultation/spoils is really bad at searching restricted cards, like yawgmoths bargain/necropotence/wheel/timetwister/etc..

[Crazy_Mykl]

Marton, I took your suggestions, and the deck is a turn faster and more consistent. Thank you. Here's an upated list:

//Manabase

1 Tolarian Academy
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Grim Monolith

1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Volcanic Island
4 Underground Sea

3 Dark Ritual

//Combo

4 Vedalken Archmage
4 Words of Wind

//Kill

2 Brain Freeze
1 Mind's Desire

//Broken

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Timetwister
1 Tinker
1 Memory Jar
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Yawgmoth's Will

//Draw

4 Brainstorm
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Windfall

//Tutor

1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor

//Countermagic

4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain

Dark rituals I couldn't fit in,  but I still can cast necro, though usually a little later than I'd like to.... and bargian off drain works.

MisD is kinda filler, but I wouldn't run a single Rit, as it seems silly.

EDIT: Cut MisD, and the FoF that was listed twice, added 3x Rit...

[Marton]

hmmm, you forgot to put yawgmoths bargain and mind's desires in the broken section here is my new recommandations upon the newer decklist


-1 fact or fiction
-1 polluted delta
-1 underground sea  (I am very unsure about this one, it could be too excessive in addition to the polluted delta)
-1 misdirection

+4 dark ritual


i see you already put yawgmoth's will. that will avoid cutting more stuff to fit it in. seriously, you ought to play with dark ritual to speed it 0.5/1 more turn faster. It shouldnt really affect much of the deck consistency.

EDIT: you might want to try to put 1x crop rotation too as the 5th dark ritual.

EDIT2:
if you want to try and change the deck to a more retract/hurkyl's recall style, you OUGHT to play with lion's eye diamond. heres how you play this: with archmage into play, play retract/hurkyl's recall, RIGHT AFTER playing the spell, DO NOT PASS PRIORITY YET. sacrifice the lions eye diamond NOW. discard your hand, then let the retract/hurkyl resolve, returning all your moxes in your hand. replay everything, draw tons, and abuse the lions eye diamond mana you had for free.

[theorigamist]

It looks too slow to put together on paper, but without actually playing or seeing the deck, I'll refrain from any more comments on it.  However, a quick FYI:

Vedalken Archmage reads: "Whenever you play an artifact spell, draw a card."  It will trigger when you play the Mox, not when the Mox comes into play.  So you cannot use the Mox to pay for Words for its own card draw.  Here's how it has to happen.

Since Words of Wind says "The next time you would draw a card this turn..." you can pay for the effect well in advance of a card draw being on the stack.  So, you need to pay 1 mana in the main phase, then play the Mox, the card draw triggers, then you use the floating mana to activate Words, then return a DIFFERENT MOX, then the Mox you cast will hit play.  Then you can tap it and float its mana and cast the other Mox that you just bounced.

What I'm getting at is, since the Archmage card draw triggers while the Mox you cast is still on the stack, then using Words will also happen while the Mox is on the stack.  In order for you to actually continue this combo, you need 2 Moxen, not one.

Perhaps somebody who knows the rules more thoroughly (i.e. a judge) could confirm this, but I'm almost positive that's right.

[AngryPheldagrif]

So you're running an effective 5 card, heavily mana-intensive combo:
Veldaken Archmage+Words of Wind+Brain Freeze+2 Mox things

How is this going to run better (especially since they run a similiar support base) than the other combo of this sort:
Auriok Salvagers+Lotus/LED+Spellbomb/Wish

-Dan

PS: And I'm being ironic, not sarcastic.