[Deck Discussion] Grow-A-Tog/GAT - Decklists and playstyle

[skecreatoR]

As Fifth Dawn brought two cards that radically changed Grow-A-Tog, I think it would be quite useful to have a discussion in open about the deck.

First, I will post the list that I found the most efficient, and later on discuss the card choices and most importantly, the role of GAT today. I bolded the special choices.

Grow-A-Tog, skefied, suited for the common meta:

Mana (19):
4 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
1 Island
R Strip Mine
R Library of Alexandria

R Black Lotus
R Mox Jet
R Mox Sapphire
R Mox Emerald

Beatings of tomorrow (5):
4 Quirion Dryad
1 Psychatog

I Can Trip a.k.a. Draw (14):
4 Night's Whisper
4 Serum Visions
4 Brainstorm

R Ancestral Recall
R Gush

Resolving +5 spell stacks with wicked sick moves (14)
4 Force of Will
3 Mana Drain
4 Misdirection
3 Daze

National/International tutorage (4)
2 Cunning Wish

R Demonic Tutor
R Mystical Tutor

Awesomeness in large doses (3):
R Yawgmoth's Will
R Fastbond
R Time Walk

The skilled calculative mind already figured out this list to be 59 cards only, I will get back to this later. First the special choices, in listed order:

Strip Mine - This is the only card where I don't think it is the GAT playing style that depends on the card, more the current meta. Sui.Gat has a great matchup against Hulk, but a early LoA can take the steam out of the game. I have more then once faced a LoA that drew 6-8 cards in an game, which is more then I probably drew that entire game. You get the picture. Same counts with 4cc and "the better Slaver.dec".

Misdirection and Daze - it is a personal choice, first of all. First how many of each should be included, if they should be included at all. I always liked Daze (And happens to own 3 foil asian). Ric_Flair (or David Hernandez? One of them, at least) has always said that Misdirection is underrated. Misdirection is bloody gawd. I bow in my blasphemous body beneath the great power of the flying blue faces in the picture.

The drains. These are, as the closed debate already prooved, very much up to discuss.

Playstyle and the issues involved

Those who remember old GAT, the amazingly streamlined, Gush-Powered(TM) draw house it surely was, will have a hard time realizing that the playstyle of GAT has shifted a lot. The primary reason is, of course, the restriction of Gush. Lets see a situation with Tog on the table, 1 Mox, 4 Lands in play, 2 Gush in hand.

Tap two lands for blue > Gush. Draw 2.

In theory, tog just gained: +6.5/+6.5

Tap another two lands, play another Gush, tog is now, with discarding ONLY the cards that Gush gave as merit of its casting cost/ability, +11/+11. Considering you have 4 free mana, Cunning wish > Berserk is now a very likely possibility.

That is why the deck is named Grow-A-Tog, not Grow-A-Dryad or GAD, the amazing ability to just totally wreck your enemy, even at instant speed. Today's GAT went from immensely powerful draw to Cantrips replacing themselves, and that has so surely changed the focus from 'Smiley' to 'Elvy', and that is the point; GAT combos out in an entirely different way today compared to before, and therefore the playstyle should be adjusted in that way. Psychatog is still a house, granted, but its role in SuiGAT is outplayed. As an conclusion, the evolution of GAT can be explained like this:

GAT changed from powerful draw cards onwards to the other end of the scale, the cantrips, merely replacing themselves.  ´

This bring me further to Mana Drains, and why you would want to play them, even today. When people argue for using Mana Drain in decks today, the reason is either, for some damned reason, Cunning Wish > Fact or Fiction or Let's make that SKEletal Scrying 'damn huge, ma' (Nothing wrong with scrying, note the name, no coincidence.). The reason why I would not play GAT without drains anymore is first of all because a Drain of a 3-4cc card is not fueling a power play, it is fueling 3-4 small counter-plays.

Example:
Drain FoW, 5 mana in mainphase. Tap Underground Sea > Night's Whisper. Draw 2. Tap blue, Time Walk. Tap Black, Demonic Tutor. Tutor op Ancestral Recall if its still in your deck, play it. Now you probably either drawn into more cantrips, and surely counters and 1-2 mana pieces.

Even if the deck doesn't have huge amounts of cards it can blow, Mana Drain is too god to give up. I am amazed by it every time. That is also exactly another reason why the deck's focus has changed. Where you wanted a powerplay before to pump tog, you now strongly focus your mind on the Dryad with many small plays. Because of that, I strongly advocate Mana Drain.

Playing against creatures that start gay and end fat

People tend to make the same mistake every single time they play against GAT; they go into total defensive and try to avoid losing to the dryad, but this is the sure way to actually lose.

The best example in magic is without doubt Xantid Swarm. Deal with it or lose.

Change 'Xantid Swarm' with 'Quirion Dryad' and you have the exact same situation. GAT can't play the inevitable style that Tog bases so much of its play on, but even turn 3-4-5, a resolved Dryad is simply just turning the game around and saying: now we play my game. The cheap cantrips always net you bunch of countermagic, note that my GAT plays more disruptive counterspells than Keeper.

To play against GAT you need to disrupt the early game instead of trying to outcounter the Dryad when the time comes. Some people will try to rush the Dryad through (Aggressive role) and other will wait a few turns, building up a powerful hand (Control). The role is as always very important, missasignment equals gameloss, as we all were told by our mama's at bedtime when we were young (/younger.).

What I would like to discuss is how to optimize GAT and how to play it correctly. The deck, straightforward as it may be, often surprise me in the array of possibilities very early in the game due to the low mana curve, technically ending at 2. After all the intensive testing I done with GAT, I find the deck to be surprisingly resillient and incredibly powerful. The deck could surely be a defining deck of the fall, I find no decks where its matchup is that bad.

EDIT: For the 60th card, throw in Merchant Scroll, or whatever.

[Gilberry]

I find GAT mediocre in the current meta. Matches vs. workshop decks are especially difficult for me. An opponents first turn trinisphere or goblin welder can often mean a game loss. In the late game my dryad can't do very much against a darksteel colossus or sundering titan if one resolves. How do you face workshop decks, with your deck?

I haven't tried including daze in my deck. Usually I use stifle, but I see how daze can help in early countering. It also works with fastbond.

What is in your sideboard? My fear of workshop decks has caused me to devout about half of my board to fighting them. My usual board is:

2 Hurkyl's Recall
1-2 Rebuild
2 B E B
1 fact or fiction
1 xantid swarm
1 beserk
1 oxidize
1 naturalize
1 coffin purge
( and three other cards, depending on the meta)

Another issue I'm faced with is what kind of playing style to adopt if dryad doesn't come into my hand turn 1-3? Usually by then my hand is no longer full of draw spells and I'm forced to play a strictly control deck. Sometimes this works, but if I'm facing a control deck myself, this is when I usually loose. I think I might be too aggressive in the early game. I often play GAT as a combo deck. What is your optimal playing style?

[Addolorisi]

I'll preface my statements with the disclaimer that most of my time spent playing GAT is in T1.5, so please understand that I may not be quite up to par with the T1 builds.

Has anyone tried fitting red into the mana base? I find that running a red splash is very effective and gives me several tools. The two most important are Artifact Mutation as a wish target, and Fire/Ice which, while it's there to deal primarily with 1.5's larger proportion of aggro, is also pretty good at nailing Welders.

[skecreatoR]

Gilberry > Unless you are running a workshop deck, which deck like a T1 Trinisphere?

Against workshop, you first of all need to assign a role. With a deck packing 5 Lotus, 7+ mana producing artifacts and some of the most efficient fat ever printed, control is often the obvious role you need to take. That is one of the reasons I play Strip Mine, to handle that Workshop or Library.

Often, these decks run a minimum of countering, hoping they can outbroken the opponent within the first 3-4 turns (the critical turns.) If you resolve a dryad, you just changed the decks focus entirely, and now they need to deal with it. Running 14 hard counters and 14 drawspells give you nearly 1/2 of your deck devoted to making your dryad survive. That's one of the reasons I don't run a Duress or two in the deck, the weak match against workshop decks.

Resolving a dryad seems key, at least to me. Resolving dryad against anything seems key, as people always go into defensive, and when they finally kill the bastard they either lost so many turns dealing with it that you resolve a next turn dryad or outdraw them in a glitch. That is the strength of GAT.

Not drawing a Dryad within turn 3 is so rare that, with my decklist, I don't even thinks its a liability. I'm not lying when I think it never happened once.

My sideboard changes very often, but I wouldn't leave home without:

1 Berserk
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Snuff Out
1 Accumulated Knowledge (>>> Fact or Fiction, even if I include both.)
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Oxidize
1 Teferi's Response
1 Naturalize
1 Coffin Purge

Metagame the last 3 spots. I prefer having a totally wishable sideboard, which I believe is the most efficient way of using GAT, even though I sometimes run 2 Berserk SB to side in, shifting out a Serum Visions for the faster kill.

Addolorisi, the discussion of fitting in red in GAT is as upheated as the color symbolize itself. Artifact Mutation is an fantastic tool, but so much more in Hulk-based decks. Where you sometimes just can't outdraw the opponent and make the Tog lethal, a snap AM can totally change the game in your favor. GAT doesn't need this game switch possibility, as GAT doesn't play like Tog anymore. Again, resolving the dryad and countering his stuff is the answer to most problems you will face.

The beauty of the manabase, at least my version, is it's so hard to get mana screwed. 12 duals, including the Polluted Delta, a lone Island and two of the three best lands ever printed. If you worry about the base, remove the Strip and add a Forest.

Fire/Ice is insanely good in any deck it fits the mana base, but dealing with Welder's is just easier with hardcountering. Running red is, imo, the wrong decision and again changes the deck onward to the slower Hulk-like build. I don't think it would be as easy to do the turn2 kills with red as well.

[Gilberry]

skecreatoR, I agree with you completely that resolving an early dryad is key. (unforetunately it doesn't always happen).

I do have one question about your side. How can you fit Red Elemental Blast without a splash of red? Speaking about splashing red: I don't think it fits this deck, for the same reason that wastelands don't make the cut. The color splash makes the manabase vulnerable, and doesn't speed up the deck. One could potentially include a single volcanic island for sideboard effects. (The idea needs playtesting, but I don't think it would work very well)

[skecreatoR]

omg, I combined my Tog and GAT sideboard.

4 Blue Elemental Blast

Instead.

I don't think running red or having a single volcanic is a good idea, either. The manabase should definitely stay at 3 colors.

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

I'm not sure about 4x misdirection.  I understand how powerful it is but I believe it to be far too conditional as a 4 of.  2-3 misdirection seems to make more sense.

I definately agree with the daze idea.  In my testing it has been fantastic.  Same for the 3 colour mana base.  19 mana sources with 4 colours = suicide; more mana sources with all of the cantripping= unessecary.

I'm not sure about the exclusion of duress.  It's certainly more useful against workshop decks that mis-d is.  Duressing trinis, TFKs is useful, and mis-d can't touch those.  It's also 1-for-1, while mis-d is SOMEtimes 2for-1 on you. (mostly in counter wars)

So, I would probably advocate the use of 2 duress in 2 of the mis-d slots.

I realize that the main focus of the deck is dryad, but tog is also very poweful, particularily when drawn into mid-late game.  Even with all of the draw, 1 tog seems kind of random, so I would probably up the count to 2 to ensure being able to find one later in the game when necessary.

[Ultima]

Your threat count is so low.  If I were only running 5 threats, i'd be worried about drawing into any threat in the early game at all, let alone a dryad.

1 stripmine is hardly enough to handle any sort of land problems like a library or workshop and should probably be used for colored mana considering the mana count is 19.  

Serum Visions is such a bad cantrip in this deck and should really be replaced with sleight of hand.  I'm sure you come to the same decision eventually.  When you start to lose games because of its slowness, you'll see.

Unless your metagame is heavy control, there really isn't any reason to run 4 misdirection.

[JDawg13]

Serum Visions is such a bad cantrip in this deck and should really be replaced with sleight of hand.  I'm sure you come to the same decision eventually.  When you start to lose games because of its slowness, you'll see.

Serum Visions is actually a LOT better than Sleight of Hand in most situations.  I remember there was a thread comparing the two when the 5D spoilers were first up, and it came out showing that Visions is just pretty much strictly better.  It's the same cost and it can get rid of more unwanted cards than Sleight can.  I don't see how you can call Visions "slow" compared to Sleight, when they cost the same and Visions digs you more.  It really is just better.

EDIT: Here's the link to that thread:
http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=16840

Unless your metagame is heavy control, there really isn't any reason to run 4 misdirection.

With practically every deck in the format running FoW these days, Misdirection is very necessary at resolving your early Dryad and then keeping it there.  I'd almost not consider going below three in a GAT build such as this.

[eddavatar]

I gotta run but here's a couple comments from my experience.

1)2 togs is the good number....you can always pitch it away.
2)4 Mis-D will make you cry in so many matchups. 2 is the right number. And its Batman Hernandez that says MisD is underrated.
4)Full power aint bad for the deck.
5)Fastbond really stink w/o 4 Gush.
6)60th card can be Berserk. It gives you some good faster wins.
7)Serum Visions is alright. Sleight of hand is worst in my opinion. NW/AK engine shuold be tried too.

[Gilberry]

@ eddavatar
 2 togs can be used in this deck and the 60th card can very well be a second tog. It should not be a berserk, unless one happens to be running a merchant scroll (and less cunning wishes, but who would do that?). The berserk can be easily retrieved from the sideboard, when needed. 3-4 misdirections is not such a bad idea (as JDawg13 said: most decks these days run FoW). I have seen several fully powered Gat builds, and they have usually done pretty well. Extra moxes can help in resolving a 1st turn dryad, but they also make the manabase a bit unstable.

@ Ultima
 This deck can't run too many wasteland cards. They slow you down, have no synergy with daze, and off-set the manabase. 1 Stripmine will have to do.

The number of misdirections or duresses the deck should have is an interesting issue. I prefer misdirections since they do keep your dryad alive and are key against control matches (that usually run somewhere between 13-15 misdirection targets).
Any ideas on the deck's potential playstyles

EDIT: Sorry, bad info. Merchant scroll only gets blue instants. I somehow forget this even in tournaments.

[Ultima]

Serum Visions is actually a LOT better than Sleight of Hand in most situations.  I remember there was a thread comparing the two when the 5D spoilers were first up, and it came out showing that Visions is just pretty much strictly better.  It's the same cost and it can get rid of more unwanted cards than Sleight can.  I don't see how you can call Visions "slow" compared to Sleight, when they cost the same and Visions digs you more.  It really is just better.

I really don't want to get into this again.  In the old thread, "Key to GAT in 5D,"  there's a long and more drawn out explanation as to why visions is too slow.  Like I said, when you start to lose games because that FOW was the 2nd card that sleight would have gotten you, you'll see what I'm talking about.

With practically every deck in the format running FoW these days, Misdirection is very necessary at resolving your early Dryad and then keeping it there.  I'd almost not consider going below three in a GAT build such as this.

Just because FoW is played by 2 out of the 3 most prominent decks doesn't justify it as a 4 of.  If you really want to play a free counter for dryads, daze is a better choice.  With Tog declining, there are even fewer mis-d targets and COW with wastes make duress too vulnerable.  

Even if you analyze the 2 popular decks, Fish and 4CC, mis-d still doesn't look like the best choice.  Besides recall and the occasional Twist, there isn't anything you can reallly misdirect.  Any player who lets you mis-d their swords probably would have lost anyway, and artifact aggro decks have nothing.  4 dead cards can be gameloss alone for that match up.

[Addolorisi]

On Visions: I was formerly of the opinion that it was better than Sleight/Opt/etc. and I'm aware of the how Visions looks better when done by the numbers. At this point, I'm quite undecided on where to go.

Visions is great at massaging your next few draws, but it doesn't give you any choice in what card it actually puts into your hand. How many times has Visions put a useless land into your hand and left two bombs on top of your deck? I realize that this is only one example, and the most extreme one at that. But I'm going to be giving Sleight a much closer look.

[kill doug]

Try again.
-Kowal[/color]

[Gilberry]

@ kill doug (By the way: you didn't include a single period, to end a sentence in your post, and what you wrote wasn't very legible).

 Serum Visions is a perfectly good card in GAT. I understand that one can replace it with slight of hand, but the deck needs the card drawing from one of the two cards.

 Daze and Fastbond are worth consideration in this deck. Daze is a very powerful counter. It is free, unexpected and works well with an early dryad. Fastbond can boost your tempo, and make lands drawn by serum visions not a waste. It also has great synergy with daze and gush. (Fastbond isn't played in fish )

 Pernicious deed is not a wise choice for this deck. This is not Hulk. You don't want to kill your own first turn dryad, or your moxes. This deck wins fast (thus the Fastbond).

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

@ eddavatar
 2 togs can be used in this deck and the 60th card can very well be a second tog. It should not be a berserk, unless one happens to be running a merchant scroll (and less cunning wishes, but who would do that?). The berserk can be easily retrieved from the sideboard, when needed. 3-4 misdirections is not such a bad idea (as JDawg13 said: most decks these days run FoW). I have seen several fully powered Gat builds, and they have usually done pretty well. Extra moxes can help in resolving a 1st turn dryad, but they also make the manabase a bit unstable.

@ Ultima
 This deck can't run too many wasteland cards. They slow you down, have no synergy with daze, and off-set the manabase. 1 Stripmine will have to do.

The number of misdirections or duresses the deck should have is an interesting issue. I prefer misdirections since they do keep your dryad alive and are key against control matches (that usually run somewhere between 13-15 misdirection targets).
Any ideas on the deck's potential playstyles

1: I agree with the 2 tog idea

2: Merchant scroll only gets blue instants; the only thing it is used for is grabbing ancestral/gush

3: Right on on the strip mine thing.  The deck is akin to hulk in this- it hopes to kill the opponent fast enough that a pesy non-basic doesn't matter, but the addition of a lone strip mine could be a useful tool, especially considering the amount of draw/search the deck runs and the surprise value it would carry

4: Still don't agree with the full 4 mid-s; that just asking for it to be dead.

5: The deck can obviously play as aggro, combo, or control, depending on the matchup and particular circumstances.  This is obviously one of it's strengths.

Oh and I think visions > slight.  With the amount of cheap draw this deck runs, digging and looking 1 card deeper is better than being able to decide between just the top and bottom card.  Visions simply has more versatiliy than slight overall, even though there are situations when sleight is better.

I also agree with everything GIlberry said in his last post.

[Ultima]

Oh and I think visions > slight.  With the amount of cheap draw this deck runs, digging and looking 1 card deeper is better than being able to decide between just the top and bottom card.  Visions simply has more versatiliy than slight overall, even though there are situations when sleight is better.

The issue between the 2 cantrips doesn't lie with which digs more or which is more versatile.  Its about which one is faster and that is what's more important for winning.

I think its also important to understand that visions doesn't always dig.  If you decide that you need the 2 cards on top, it feels like you haven't really gotten anywhere with the card.  Additionally its important to understand that every card that is good or is what you need, a bomb.  There are many cards that are simply necassary but far from being a bomb.  This is another reason why visions is sub-optimal.

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

I think that in the majority of situtations, the superior digging and versatility of visions outweighs being able to grab the 2nd card with sleight.  That is the issue.  You, obviously, think that the ability to choose the 2nd card and get it right away is more important.  There is no real way to argue this any further as only testing can determine what advantage outweighs the other.

[Ultima]

This has been tested for many months, even before it was released.  The strongest arguement I can give to this side is the common knowledge, the fundamental turn in T1 is 2, which is not alot of time.

[glenchuy]

has anybody else done any extensive testing with the TFK + DA for card drawing (backed up by whispers of course)?  i find the visions is umm... lacking,  if you run a full complement of jewelry + crypt (which i do) TFK can be huge, and fills up the yard real quick.

fastbond + yawgwill is sick.  however, it is really just useful if you draw will- which in this case, you should be winning anyway-  also, since i use DAs, i can't afford to lose any more life since i'm already losing so much life.

//NAME: GAT
// Mana (22)
        4 Tropical Island
        4 Underground Sea
        3 Flooded Strand
        2 Island
        2 Polluted Delta
        1 Strip Mine
        1 Mox Emerald
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Black Lotus
// Control (12)
        4 Force of Will
        3 Mana Drain
        3 Daze
        2 Misdirection
// Beatdown (6)
        4 Quirion Dryad
        2 Psychatog
// Cantrips (20)
        4 Brainstorm
        4 Night's Whisper
        3 Thirst for Knowledge
        2 Deep Analysis
        2 Cunning Wish
        1 Ancestral Recall
        1 Demonic Tutor
        1 Gush
        1 Time Walk
        1 Yawgmoth's Will
// Utility (1)
        1 Mystical Tutor
// Sideboard (15)
SB:  3 Blue Elemental Blast
SB:  3 Ground Seal
SB:  2 Stifle
SB:  2 Gilded Drake
SB:  1 Naturalize
SB:  1 Berserk
SB:  1 Coffin Purge
SB:  1 Fact Or Fiction
SB:  1 Oxidize

it's been working fine, but i really do miss the red splash, especially since my meta is welder infested.

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

TFK seems strong(I am not sure about the artifact count without testing, though), but I don't like deep at all.  It is extreamly difficult to cast without drain mana or a tog to discard it to.  

Fastbond works with all of the other draw in  the deck, not just will.  However, I hasn't been spectacular for me in my testing so I am considering cutting it.

I agree that 2 togs in the correct number.

Of course, without the second cantrip your 1cc plays decrease, but with the full set of moxen+lotus it isn't as important.

[glenchuy]

TFK seems strong(I am not sure about the artifact count without testing, though), but I don't like deep at all.  It is extreamly difficult to cast without drain mana or a tog to discard it to.  

you can discard DAs from TfKs.  i tested more drawing since i find that 4 whispers only is just lacking

[Gilberry]

deep analysis does not suit GAT in my opinion. GAT needs versatile draw cards and not cards that can only be played via another card. What if during my game I don't have a TFK in hand (or tog on the board), and I don't have the mana (or time) to cast DA? These kind of situations are all too frequent, and DA is a useless card way too often.

I don't like TFK either. Most of the time it will only draw you one net card, for three mana. This does not help tempo or card advantage.