[Discussion/Strategy Issues] Has 5D GAT been optimized?

[Kerz]

Yes, its Monday again, and time for more Discussion/Strategy Issues. This week's theme is:

Has GAT (including cards from 5th Dawn) been optimized yet?

It is a fact that Grow-a-Tog was given some great new tricks from Magic's newest set. The two cards in question are Night's Whisper and Serum Visions.  

Following suit with the general consensus, Serum Visions may be too weak of an effect to be considered, while Night's Whisper gives the deck a whole new asset of cheap, efficient draw.

With these cards being legal for over a month, have we, as a community, optimized the GAT deck which includes these cards? There has been sufficient time  to test and play the decks, including the SCG power nine tournament, where only 1 GAT deck showed in the top eight  (piloted by Scott Limoges).

This can mean any number of things:

1. The deck is simply not strong enough to post consistant solid finishes.
2. The deck hasn't nearly been tweaked to its optimal form, and still has much room for improvement. (There hasn't been enough work on the deck).
3. People have given up on the deck prematurely.

When Fifth Dawn was released, Grow-a-Tog was immidiately considered a major contender in the community. Not  putting up any serious numbers since then, does that mean that it has is not truely living up to its potential?

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

Well, personally, I don't think there is anything left to do with GAT. I mean, I think every configuration of draw/search/threats/disruption has been tried. The reason why GAT has been doing well, is because the people who pilot it know the deck very well and build the deck for their metagame. If you have the right counters/draw engine/threat density, you are sure to do well with the deck.

On a related note, I think GAT is going to decline in numbers over the next few months. There is a rise in workshop based decks, meaning GAT will have a tougher time, plus, Hulk's numbers are declining. So basically, GAT's best matchup is dwinddling, and it's toughest matchup is becoming more and more common.

-Bob

[Grand Inquisitor]

The reason why GAT has been doing well, is because the people who pilot it know the deck very well and build the deck for their metagame. If you have the right counters/draw engine/threat density, you are sure to do well with the deck

On a related note, I think GAT is going to decline in numbers over the next few months. There is a rise in workshop based decks, meaning GAT will have a tougher time

Exactly.  I don't know of many people who do well with the deck consistently besides Scott Limoge and Ultima.

However, in spite of workshop infested fields, I've conistently T8'd over the last few months.

To answer Kerz's questions:

ve we, as a community, optimized the GAT deck which includes these cards?

No.  Now that there are some better options (Whispers&Visions > Thirst), I think GAT can be a consistent metagame choice.  However, the structure of the deck changes a lot depending on the metagame (for example, I'm currently finding success with both crucible and future sight MD).  On top of that, more testing and most of all tourney experience are needed to fill in the blanks.

The deck is simply not strong enough to post consistant solid finishes.

In a prison workshop environment this is true.  In a more general environment, its a very strong choice.

The deck hasn't nearly been tweaked to its optimal form, and still has much room for improvement
 People have given up on the deck prematurely.

Complete agreement.  In general, people have given up on this since Gush got restricted, in spite of its continual strong showings.  If more creative deck builders were working on this, I think it would bear fruit.

Of course, take this with a grain of salt since
1) I'm high on michelob, and
2) My strategy with dryad based decks is to resolve future sight (kerz knows this as well as anyone)

[Methuselahn]

The deck is simply not strong enough to post consistant solid finishes.

In a prison workshop environment this is true.  In a more general environment, its a very strong choice.

So, if Trinisphere/Crucible will be as big as many people project, will Grow-A-Tog be viable regardless of whether it uses other Fifth Dawn cards?

Oh, and there is another 5D/GAT thread currently active, so I'm not sure why this subject was chosen Kerz.  

[ELD]

A while ago I came up with Ritual GAT.   It runs Dark Ritual, which allows for Night's Wisper to not take up the entire turn, pumps dryads like crazy and makes Yawgmoth's Will game over.  I have not tested it myself yet, but I did mention the idea to a couple people and they have had a lot of success with it.  I actually played against it today, and though I won our match, he still came in second with his deck.  His only game losses on the day were against me as well.  I will test the deck when I get time, but for now I'm really amazed at the deck I'm running.

[eddavatar]

I echo the sentiment that GAT's a deck that would do well if the player understand how the deck plays. I saw people playing GAT way too conservatively and lost. I've been playing it for the last year and it has been doing well for me. It literally grows on me.

I'm interested in ELD's Ritual GAT, on the other hand. I would love to get my hands on the list and see how it's like.

[Matt]

Yeah, really. I'm wondering how you spend the extra .

[Grand Inquisitor]

Yeah, really. I'm wondering how you spend the extra

I'm wondering how you build a mana base that isn't susceptle, to 5 strip.dec, and why you'd want to make GAT worse against Workshop Prison.

[Eastman]

Why do we want dark ritual in GAT???

The reasons that ritual is espoused are to power up Night's Whisper (a -2 life, +0 mana, +0 cards transaction) and to 'make Yawgmoth's Will game over' (errr... it already was). Granted it pumps Dryad but, well so does every spell you run in a GAT deck.

I'm hardly convinced.

[ELD]

As always, I'm not interested in changing anyones mind.  What works for me often doesn't work for other people because of differant playstyles.  For everyone interested in the Ritual GAT, realize that gro was first designed to take advantage of a light mana base.  Gush was the card that made the deck, not dryad.  Dryad, IMO is a weak card.  Very weak.  It is only amazing when you can play tons of spells in the same turn.  Ritual can let you play 3 spells very easily.  Ritual, Duress, Wispers is a lot of pumping, and it pushes you toward your bombs while disrupting your opponent.  

I still don't believe that the deck is anywhere near something I would play for real.  I play broken stuff.  I'm not a fan of getting myself into unrecoverable game states, and GAT can do that.  Anyways, I'll post a decklist after I try my next idea out.

[Wollblad]

Following suit with the general consensus, Serum Visions may be too weak of an effect to be considered, while Night's Whisper gives the deck a whole new asset of cheap, efficient draw.

Interesting point. Over here I've got the impression that poeple really likes Serum Vision, but are playing Accumulated Knowledge instead of Whisper. The argument is usually that Serum Vision makes it much more comfortable to hold a low mana hand since you then get the top four cards (including your next draw) to find more mana. It is also kind of shuffle effect after a Brainstorm. Accu is equally good and better from the second Accu and forth, is an instant, gives you no pain and can in worst case be discarded to Force. I cannot tell which configuration that is the better one, but the difference in oppinions suggests that there still is optimizing to do.

[Gabethebabe]

Accu is equally good and better from the second Accu and forth, is an instant, gives you no pain and can in worst case be discarded to Force.

Not convincing. AK only nets you more cards if you manage to cast all 4. Until you have cast your third, you are running behind NW.

Also, and now I'm nitpicking, NW doesn't give PAIN, but you lose life and you don't DISCARD blue cards to FoW, but you remove them.

[Wollblad]

Not convincing. AK only nets you more cards if you manage to cast all 4. Until you have cast your third, you are running behind NW.

True, but it's a minor issue. In my oppinion the main problem is the mana base. Running 4 NW, DT, Will, 2 Tog and a number of Duresses might make you mana base crap out and makes you more vulnerable to Wastelands. Also, NW and AK do not exclude each other as many players seems to believe. I hold fast to the oppinion there not all cofigurations are yet fully tested and that non have yet prooven to be superior to the other.

Also, and now I'm nitpicking, NW doesn't give PAIN, but you lose life and you don't DISCARD blue cards to FoW, but you remove them.

I'll be more careful nex time. Not that I don't know the terms (I'm a level 1 judge), I was just too lazy to be careful.

[Matt]

Has anyone thought to run more than zero but less than four Night's Whisper? I see people complaining that the pain adds up, suggesting that you not play them, but that doesn't imply you can't play a couple.

[Kerz]

Some builds are playing 3 Night's Whisper and 4 Accumulated Knowlege. I know Eastman piloted one a few weeks ago to the top 4  here.

This configuration is quite solid, adding more actual draw to the deck (a big part of what GAT needs). You can't really run Mana Drain along with these two though.

[Grand Inquisitor]

Has anyone thought to run more than zero but less than four Night's Whisper

I never ran 4.  Although the points Wollbad brought up aren't incorrect, the main reason is that there are more powerful spells I'd like to fit into the deck, and/or use mana to cast.

Not convincing. AK only nets you more cards if you manage to cast all 4. Until you have cast your third, you are running behind NW

Exactly.  However, the fact that there actually is going to be an AK for 4, and that it has all of the other benefits (mostly that its instant speed, blue) makes it an attractive choice in a slow, hulkless environment.

I hold fast to the oppinion there not all cofigurations are yet fully tested and that non have yet prooven to be superior to the other.

I would say, more accurately, that optimal configurations depend on what you expect to face, and your playstyle with the deck.

Ultima has made the prima facie argument that GAT should be played as aggressively as possible.  While this sort of emphasis produces wins that are extremely impressive, I've had frequent success with more controllish builds.

I've tested and played this deck an impractical amount, and the only conclusive thing I can say about it is that it has a positive matchup against almost everything except workshop, which it loses to bitterly.

[ELD]

I see no way for GAT to have game vs workshop.  One card that I hate in GAT is serum vision.  I think it is an extremely weak card.  I'd like to know if anyone has considered running Cremate in it's slot.  While it doesn't pitch to force, it seems like it would be useful in many match ups as well.  The fact that it can mess with a future Yawmoth's will seems like it could impact the majority of good decks out there.  Here are some specific card interactions.  

Crucible-remove that waste/strip
Welder-counter a weld, break game wide open
Dragon-hurtful
Rector-even more hurtful than vs dragon
Hulk-Removing DA is great, removing time walk makes will less broken