Expanded Discussion of Ur Fish (Shamans and Angels)

[leviat]

Mox Monkey vs Goblin Vandal

I am very interested to delve a little deeper into the discussion of the Monkey vs the Goblin. Typically I am a huge fan of Monkey since I've been playing 4cc for quite some time. However, I have just revently unloaded the majority of my magic cards (including power) and have decided to keep some fish around since it's an excellent budget deck...

The main argument I have heard that puts Monkey > Vandal has been Moxes (and Crypt). What I don't understand is how Monkey is more efficient at dealing with Jewelry than Null Rod. More specifically, if Monkey is run to handle early Jewels, then a fourth Rod seems a more efficient solution to the problem at hand. I myself would prefer Null Rod as well since it doesn't allow the feeding of the Moxen to a 'Tog.

Now, if the reality of the situation is that Monkey is used to handle the random Chalice (since fish would rarely have enough mana to handle any other triggered artifact) then does the advantage of Monkey really make up for the diversity of that the Vandal can offer?

In terms of artifact threats, I see the Vandal being able to deal with a much larger array of threats that can cause problems for Fish (Smokestack, Tangle Wire, Jugs, even 7/10 will stop swinging when not backed with a defender). Even random problems such as Crucible or Skullcap have a more likely chance of falling prey to Vandal than they would of Monkey.

Anyways, I was just hoping to get some input from someone who has playtested both in order to get some solid background to this quandary.

Dealing with Angels

In my metagame, 4cc is extremely popular. On paper, it seems to me that fish can do very little against a "4/5 spirit linked beatstick with a halo". Racing quickly becomes out of the question as most fish decks will have a hard time doing 8+ damage a turn. While one could simply argue that fish must keep control of the game and prevent her most righteous ass from hitting the table, those Angels come down lightning fast in a powered meta.

Gilded Drake seems like a powerful option but I see very few people have even mentioned them. Thoughts anyone?

[paradigm]

To address the use of Goblin Vandal versus Gorilla Shaman, it becomes closer to a specific metagame call to what types of artifact decks you expect to see.

In the specific metagame of prison or prison aggro decks resembling MUD, Stax, Stacker, TMS, and so forth (let's not get into the "names" debate), the Vandal becomes superior due to the abilities you mentioned of being able to take down the 3+ CMC Artifact.

Where the Shaman shines is the matchups where the deck is more dependant on Goblin Welder. Although Null Rod may shut off artifacts, they, of course, do not do so for the Welder, and the ability to destroy a mox in response to the Welder's activation remains the strongest reason for Shaman's inclusion - versus Control Slaver w/ 7/10s and the 7/10 matchup (assuming you counter the Gilded Lotuses there).

Addressing the Exalted Angel problem, after sideboard, the ability to use Maze of Ith has also proven to be helpful - of course, not that you'll drop the Ith to fill a land-drop, but more as a combat trick - to avoid Waste effects. In addition, Grim Lavamancer also becomes a boon here for its ability to prevent the morphed angel. Between that, and trying to cut off white sources, you can also afford to be more lenient as to what you counter in the early to mid-game as the angel is the only viable threat at that time, and there is no must-force-through spell on your part.

[Grendal]

Addressing the Exalted Angel problem, after sideboard, the ability to use Maze of Ith has also proven to be helpful - of course, not that you'll drop the Ith to fill a land-drop, but more as a combat trick - to avoid Waste effects. In addition, Grim Lavamancer also becomes a boon here

I would think there would be something more powerful than Ith to bring in.   As it stands now it is common practice for keeper players to side in CoW against fish, I would think the worst sideboarding option a fish player could make would be to side in a vulnerable land vs. Angels.   The reason being is that the Keeper play really doesn't even have to swing with Angel to gain the effectiveness of it.   Unless you have a resolved lavamancer that can plink your opponent, the keeper player need only sit with the angel because its presence alone will thwart most attacks.

- Grendal

[nataz]

@ the angel problem

drake is expensive, for that kind of mana I would rather have my own CoW.

The combination of an early daze, and stifling their fetches can keep an angle off the table for a decent amount of time. Bounce can also be very useful here seeing that it can often take two turns to get an active protected angel on the table again.

Maze of ith can be good, but post SB the 4C control player will prob. have CoW. CoW and 5 strip effects mean Maze isn’t the greatest of answers.  

for me it is less about dealing with the angle once it hits, and more about playing the tempo game in such a way that by the time the angel does get on the board, you have already put yourself in a position to win.

of course there is always the mad-tec of mid-D ing a STP, or even the always fun;
block w/ a conclave/flying creature
ping with lavamancer
and then Fire for 5-6 total dmg. :-p

@ the monkey vs Gobbo vs 4th Null Rod

Here its monkey all the way, almost all the time for multiple reasons.

Its better then the 4th null rod b/c drawing a second null rod is a dead card.

More importantly a shaman can make the moxen go away. In effect an early mox monkey can consistently shut down mana development AND the ability of a goblin welder.
Mox Monkey on the board means a lot less worry about those second turn titans.

As for the goblin that whole not blocked/only once a turn thing is a killer.
in order for me to kill a 7/10, for some reason the 7/10 player would have to choose not to block.
Ditto with the jugs and any other artifact fat.
as for decks that run smokestack/tangle wire, prison decks have never really been a problem for Gay/Red.

the difference between the two cards is that one is pure artifact kill, and one is all about the tempo advantage.

The monkey can kill multiple moxen/cheap artifacts a turn, cut off the ability of a goblin welder, all while still dealing that one point of damage.

the vandal can only kill one artifact a turn, and only if it attacks (so you have to wait a turn to use it!), and only if it is not blocked.

What it comes down to is that Gay/Red has much more efficient ways of dealing with large artifacts then the vandal (i.e., rack and ruin), whereas there is no replacement for the swiss army knife that is the monkey.

[orgcandman]

I would figure against 4cControl sigil of sleep would be a much more viable option. On a pinger/unblockable attacker, it will buy critical turns while still boosting tempo. Of course, the downside is that fire/ice becomes even more of a "must counter" card, but then again, angel is also a "must counter" card, and bouncing it may allow you to dump a few in the yard if they try to resolve again. Bounce combined with mana denial combined with counter power > maze of ith.

On the subject of the Vandal, I agree that it's a metagame choice. Although, I can also make a case for running Viashino Heretic (and he IS run in more than a few sideboards). The heretic acts like a detonate on crack, and making it curious == good game.

Just some thoughts,
Aaron

[Komatteru]

Currently I've been toying with Meekstone to deal with Angel as well as artifact decks.  While Meekstone isn't the greatest answer ever, it can be pretty decent (better than Maze perhaps).  Meekstone keeps the Angel from being unmorphed, which is quite a huge problem for fish.  You need to have an active Lavamancer on the table and enough cards in the graveyard to kill an opponent if there's an Angel on the table.  That's not always possible.  I have only gotten the ability to test this in one game.  I didn't end up winning because I couldn't draw what I needed (my opponent used 6 strip/waste effects on me as well), but the Meekstone bought me a ton of turns.  I'll let you know how this works out after more testing.

Meekstone also stops those nasty monsters from Workshop decks.  I haven't had the chance to test that, as there are no Workshop decks in my local meta (we have everything but that).

Meekstone is not the best tech ever (it is unexpected though), but it might be better than Maze right now, because of Crucible.  I'm still looking for a fantastic board answer for Angel, but I haven't been able to find anything.  Sleeping Potion, Thirst (upkeep cost = bad), or Apathy (doesn't tap it when it comes into play) might also be ideas, but they need testing.  I'm not so sure about any of those.  It's obvious that they're not amazing, but they might be enough to get the job done to buy enough time to pull out a victory.


[Edit]: Now that I think about it, there isn't going to be an amazing answer for Angel in Fish (someone would have though of that already).  However, that doesn't really matter, as Fish isn't the deck of amazing answers (excepting Force of Will, which is more necessity than anything else).  Fish is the deck that gets a minor board advantage that seems like it might disappear at any given moment.

Sleeping Potion must be sacrificed if the creature is targeted, but that requires the 4CC player to use half his Fire/Ice on the Angel, which saves one of your creatures to get rid of the Potion or Cunning Wish for Disenchant.  Both of those are a pretty suboptimal use of resources for the 4CC player, which might work out well for the Fish player.  Thirst requires Cunning Wish for Disenchant.  After I test this, I shall let you know how it works.  I'm not too hopeful about it, but it might surprise me.  In any case, I don't know if I like this because it requires the use of space to deal with one card almost exclusively.  However, these "solutions" might be good against Shop decks as well.  Angel poses a significant barrier to Fish, and the current meta includes enough 4CC to justify a specific solution.

[Raven Fire]

drake is expensive,

U1 is expensive?  It costs the same as most every other card in the deck.  Also costing U1 is Waterfront Bouncer, a decent answer to Sexxys with great Standstill synergy.  But IMHO, the best way to deal with them is to try and cut off your opponent's access to white mana.

[Stupid_Newb]

The only thing I can think of to solve the Angel problem is Gilded Drake. At 1U it's quite affordable, and in blue/red, you'll have a tough time finding cheap, effective creature removal. And not only do you remove the Angel, but you steal the Angel and make it very hard for an opponent to rebound (unless they've got a second Angel or Swords to Plowshares).

But, you also must take into account the number of counters 4C Control will have (generally 8-10, not including ReB's). If you aren't able to resolve a Drake, you could be in serious trouble. Outside of that, there isn't much you can do. You must accept the fact that Angel gives Fish trouble, and you can't do anything except hope to counter, steal, or not be faced with one.

Bottom Line: In a meta filled with 4C Control, your best bet is to sideboard (up to) four Gilded Drakes to try and steal an Angel. Outside of that, there isn't much you're able to do.

[Zelyon]

I know this is about U/R fish. But if you do decide to splash green as well, dryad is a suprisingly potent way to outrace exalted angel in 4c control.

Any control player is too busy focusing on countering and dealing with your more immediate threats (curiosity, standstill etc) or swordsing your curious flyer than about dealing with the dryad. Plus, you do play a good bit of countermagic. Before they know it, it's a constantly growing 5/5 monster that can outrace their angel.

[Addolorisi]

Ditto with the jugs and any other artifact fat.

The thing is, there's generally only ever 1 turn that ends with Jugg not turned sideways. And even then, Ice is an option.

[Moxlotus]

I don't know why people are so concerned with Jugg.  Factory takes it down.  Lavamancer+gay takes it down.  Juggy is not hard to take down.  The best way to deal with an angel is to not let it into play by using your mana disruption.  If not you're down to Cloud+conclave+lavamancer.

[Kerith]

I tried the Drake plan some time ago and I ended up drawing a Drake in the early turns, where it does absolutely nothing, ways too often. Gilded Drake is simply too narrow in the 4cc matchup, denying them WW is much better.
As for the Shaman/Vandal: I tried replacing the Shaman and another card for two Vandals, but the only time they really shined for me was when my opponent had a CoW and no instant win with it. Sadly, Vandals make a bad Curiousity target, so I am not sure if I keep them.

[goober]

I didn't realize Fish didn't sideboard Drake already, that card is sexxxy.  In my build I have for a while.  It is great at stealing Dryads, Angels, Artifact Fat, (insert problem creature).  The deck has a hard time against fat, and Drake is an amazing answer.

When you draw it early, just hold onto it.  There is nothing wrong with waiting on a bomb until it can go off.  Against 4cc either you win, or the Gilded becomes useful.  There is no way to lose if they don't play the Angel.  Here's a test, playtest 4cc vs Fish and record the number of times Drake is dead, then see how many of those you lose.  Pretty much the only way to make you get rid of it without you casting it is Twist/Balance and they are a 2 of.  Worst comes to worst it pitches.

[wuaffiliate]

Waterfront Bouncer: {1U} |Creature -- Spellshaper| 1/1. U, T, Discard a card from your hand: Return target creature to its owner's hand. MM-C (Oracle Version Date: June 1, 2004. See http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dci/oracle)

Bouncer is reusable, he should be taken into condideration. No, do not use him in conjuction with drake.

[leviat]

Just to keep the discussion going, I'll try to sum up here.

Shaman vs Vandal
The Shaman's ability to remove moxes seems to be a necessity when having to deal with Welder and Tinkers. So far, noone has really vouched for Vandal as better options seem to exist (RnR).

Dealing with an Angel
It seems we have three options--

Waterfront Bouncer: Decent answer because it can be dropped early to interact with Standstill. Downside is that it can be F/I and REBd.

Gilded Drake: Another decent answer, but he is reactive rather than proactive which seems to conterdict the strategy of Fish. Downside is that he's dead early on, and can be REBd.

Sleeping Potion: See Gilded Drake.

Attacking Manabase: Probably the best option for fish and I would like to explore this more. Keeper does have a limited supply of white mana (3/4 Tundras, 2 Cities, 2 Mox/Lotus).

Seems like sideboarding in extra Stifles could be a strong option but like Glided Drake, Stifle is a reactive answer which doesn't work well with Standstills. Unfortunately, there's really not many other ways to deal with Fetchies.

What other options could fish employ to attack an opponents resources?
[card]Dwarven Miner[/card] might be useful but having 3 mana open is always a problem for fish. It does have the advantage of not being REBd.

[card]Shivan Harvest[/card] has a draw back, but it does work well with Standstill and allows Manlands to become extra Wastelands. This might also prove useful in the mirror as you can turn dieing lands into resources. Again, cannot be REBd.

Any other ideas?

[Jacob Orlove]

Sigil of Sleep is a solid answer to Angel if you run enough "unblockable" damage. With just 4x Lavamancers, it's not quite good enough, but if you have River Boas, Razorfin Hunters, or the like, then Sigil becomes a great answer to an angel. You can also play it on like a spiketail or something after the angel swings once, and make them waste a few more turns trying to get it back out.

Like Gilded Drake, it doesn't do a whole lot when they have no creatures (they both just pitch to force), but unlike the Drake, it's good against an unmorphed angel too.

[Komatteru]

Attacking the manabase is a lot harder to do than it sounds.  I have tried this strategy, and it is very difficult to do.  Realize that you need to draw 2-3 of your Wasteland/Strip Mine, drop a Null Rod (and keep it in play), and have your opponent not draw Fetchlands and/or Tundra.  All that makes it nearly impossible to deny the 4CC two white mana for the entire game.

leviat mentioned Dwarven Miner as a way to attack the manabase.  I don't think that's the answer.  Dwarven Miner requires an investment of three mana everytime you want to destroy a land, and is suseptible to destruction via Balance, Swords to Plowshares, and Fire.  If you opponent takes out all your red mana (since there's only the 4 Volcanics in the deck), you can't do too much, which isn't great.  If this is to be the strategy, I think the answer is our friend Crucible of Worlds.  Most Fish builds are already packing 1 in the board for the mirror, but perhaps the addition of another would be good for the control matchup.  This requires you to draw only one of your Wastelands and then you're set.  You can go all out and destroy the entire manabase if you want.  Fish doesn't need more than a couple lands available to cast threats, and won't usually have more than one or two lands in hand at any point in the game, so the Crucible doesn't really interfere with the land drops as it does in Control.

I think Sigil of Sleep is worth playing around with.  Against Shop decks, it can be very good, since none of their threats fly, letting you swing right in and take out the fatties.  The only trouble is that it doesn't work too well against Sundering Titan...

A combination of the Sigil of Sleep strategy as well as attacking the mana base could be what is necessary.  If you can attack the Tundras and shut down the artifact mana (perhaps your opponent busted his Lotus to get the Angel unmorphed because you took out the Tundras but didn't get Null Rod into play) and then bounce the Angel every now and then, you can buy enough time to win the game.  If you take out the Tundras, you might be able to force the 4CC player to use his City of Brass for mana, which helps you out quite a bit.

There's not going to be a definitive answer to the Angel in Fish's arsenal.  However, doing what I said above is really what Fish is all about: hacking away and annoying the opponent with moderate disruptions, so that's a good thing.

[leviat]

A combination of the Sigil of Sleep strategy as well as attacking the mana base could be what is necessary.

If we were to rely on this strategy, then it seems to me we need to modify the standard creature base to include more evasive creatures. Some of the candidates I would select from include:

[card]Razorfin Hunter[/card] - It can ping any target, pitches to FoW, and can deal with Hasted creatures. Downside is that it can die to BEB, REB, F/I, and requires to cast.

[card]Thalakos Seer[/card] - He's a shadow, pitches to FoW, and draws a card when he leaves play. Downside is that it can die to REB, F/I, and requires a to cast. (He is a Wizard though, so he combos well with Voidmage).

[card]Saprazzan Heir[/card] - Not exactly evasion, but she IS a fish, and blocking her does get you an Ancestral Recall.

[card]Tolarian Entrancer[/card] - Similar to Saprazzan, there's a downside to blocking him. (Again, I mention he's a Wizard).

In my opinion, Razorfin Hunter is probably the best choice and he is the most universally useful and keeps with the fishy theme. The problem of course is where would he fit (eg. is he better than a Voidmage Apprentice), but I didn't necessarilly want to turn this into that kind of debate.

[Kerith]

Attacking the manabase is a lot harder to do than it sounds.  I have tried this strategy, and it is very difficult to do.  Realize that you need to draw 2-3 of your Wasteland/Strip Mine, drop a Null Rod (and keep it in play), and have your opponent not draw Fetchlands and/or Tundra.  All that makes it nearly impossible to deny the 4CC two white mana for the entire game.

Usually, after boarding versus 4cc I have:
4 Null Rod
1 Shaman
4 Stifle
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
for mana denial (or, more specific: white mana denial).  It works quite good, so maybe mana denial is the right strategie to deal with Exalted Angel.

Or rather was .. up to the introduction of the Evil Thing (c) that is Crucible of Worlds. Now you can disrupt them all you want, they will just drop the CoW and undo all that. Now I sure don't want to compare CoW to Yawgmoth's Will, but it has a similar impact on the game by allowing them to refill their resources (the mana producers the matchup is mostly about) and letting them recycle their removal (wasteland).

I think the mana denial plan was naturally superior to any other plan against 4cc. So if we now have to use another plan to beat 4cc, does the matchup not get worse? Can Gay/r keep up with more and more lists packing more and more CoWs, or does the stabilizing effect the CoW has on everybody's mana base make Gay/r obsolent?

.. or am I totally wrong?

[Chaos Blade]

Right Now Im packing a creature base of

4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Suq Ata Firewalker
4 Cloud
1 Spiketail
2 Shaman

I tested out Goblin Vandals against trinistax and hated them. There to slow and could never get passed when the opposite player had a Sundering or Pentavus on the opposite side.

Also are REBS worthless against 4cc besides hitting Brainstorm?

The Suq Ata is in there right now for the mirror and game 1 welder matchup. Props to it is, it can't be hit by Grim and decimate their whole board while it cost a whooping 3 mana. With me having problems verus Trinistax i've added 2 Annul  sideboard to my 3 Rack and Ruins and 1 Energy Flux. Please let me know.

[Cross]

Also are REBS worthless against 4cc besides hitting Brainstorm?

nope, they also hit ancestral, timewalk, and all of their countermagic. I always side them in against 4cc, mainly because of their countermagic.

EDIT: On the topic of crucible, I don't think it makes gay/r obsolete, it just makes it a little more difficult to play. It may just be a smart move to board in your rack and ruins when playing 4cc, because most of the good players will be using them. I'm not sure how many crucibles 4cc is boarding now, and that would be a good barometer for how many rack and ruins to put in.

[leviat]

Based on discussions of this thread, my current U/r Fish list is looking as follows:

Ur Fish -- Co-op Build

Creatures
4 [card]Cloud of Faeries[/card]
4 [card]Spiketail Hatchling[/card]
4 [card]Grim Lavamancer[/card]
2 [card]Razorfin Hunter[/card]

Spells
4 [card]Force of Will[/card]
2 [card]Misdirection[/card]
2 [card]Daze[/card]
2 [card]Stifle[/card]
1 [card]Ancestral Recall[/card]
1 [card]Time Walk[/card]

Enchantments
4 [card]Standstill[/card]
4 [card]Curiosity[/card]

Artifacts
3 [card]Null Rod[/card]
1 [card]Mox Sapphire[/card]

Lands
4 [card]Mishras Factories[/card]
2 [card]Faerie Conclave[/card]
4 [card]Wasteland[/card]
1 [card]Strip Mine[/card]
3 [card]Flooded Strand[/card]
2 [card]Polluted Delta[/card]
4 [card]Volcanic Island[/card]
1 [card]Island[/card]
1 [card]Library of Alexandria[/card]

Sideboard
2 [card]Red Elemental Blast[/card]
2 [card]Blue Elemental Blast[/card]
2 [card]Fire/Ice[/card]
2 [card]Sigil of Sleep[/card]
2 [card]Maze of Ith[/card]
2 [card]Gorilla Shaman[/card]
2 [card]Rack and Ruin[/card] (or [card]Energy Flux[/card])
1 [card]Crash[/card]

Based on the discussions from this thread, it seemed that Goblin Vandal just wasn't strong enough to being included over Gorilla Shaman, and the reason for that was because of Goblin Welder. Because of Razorfin's ability to easily deal with Welders, I felt that it was better to include him main and keep two Gorilla Shamans in the side for games two and three against Workshops decks. Null Rod should be able to handle most of the other problematic decks game one.

In order to deal with keeper I see myself bringing using the following sideboard strategy:
-2 Daze, -1 Curiosity, -1 ???
+2 REB, +2 Sigil

As of yet, my experience with fish is somewhat limited, what would you do for a sideboard strategy?

[Stupid_Newb]

For Keeper, I would probably go:

-2 Daze, -2 Razorfin Hunter
+2 ReB, +2 Sigil

Razorfin Hunters don't seem to be doing much for you in the Keeper matchup, so I'd side them out. But, are you sure Sigil of Sleep is a better option than Gilded Drake? Gilded Drake, while more expensive, seems to get the job done better if it can resolve.

Perfect example of why one should read a thread before posting --Leviat

[Kerith]

You play Hunters because you need more pingers to put the Sigil on, so boarding them out to put in Sigils is logically a bad idea. I usually side out the Couriosities because they will bring in more point removal and you really don't want to give them 2-for-1s.

[Covetous]

I believe that having your only plan vs. angel to be a mana-denial strategy will not be as effective as you want because of CoW, as mentioned previously.  CoW crushes Fish for the most part because it eliminates one of the deck's most effective strategies as well as potentially playing off the weakness of Fish's manabase.  Knowing that people maindeck and/or sideboard from 1-3 CoW in 4cc, do you want to bank on being able to prevent white mana development in order to prevent the angel from hitting?  I feel that having some form of effective removal will work better when combined with mana denial (or even instead of mana denial).  Several less-than-stellar options have presented themselves, such as sigil, bouncer, maze, etc.

Although sigil is obviously a powerful card, I feel that gilded is a more straightforward answer because it does not presuppose that you already
a. have an active source of unblockable damage
b. will not have this creature removed soon
Now, against 4cc these can be tricky propositions.  If they STP or Fire your creature in response to the sigil, the sigil has just become nullified.  Also, it MUST go on a pinger to work, because an exalted can block everything else you have.  I am not a fan of creature enchants as solutions to problems--they generally equal card disadvantage and allow for an opponent to make a sneaky, nasty play that will annoy you.  I think that a waterfront bouncer is probably better than a sigil because if it gets removed, it's not a 2-for-1.  Of course, the bouncer has its own downside as well.  Sigil would probably work better, as Jacob suggested, in WTF or WTF/r because of the additional unblockable river boas.  

The problem with UR decks is that they generally have poor removal for creatures that come into play.  That's why UR control decks run 12-16 counterspells--once something comes into play, it's hard to remove.  Has anyone considered running an additional color to help against these problems?  Black and white both have some legitimate solutions to the problem of angel and other fat creatures, such as terror/edict/etc. or STP.  Would it be a complete waste of time to add in either of these colors to bolster the 4cc matchup as well as any other matchups (Madness, TnT, 7/10, etc.) where fat creatures are the win condition?

[leviat]

You play Hunters because you need more pingers to put the Sigil on, so boarding them out to put in Sigils is logically a bad idea. I usually side out the Couriosities because they will bring in more point removal and you really don't want to give them 2-for-1s.

I was thinking that myself, but if played properly a curiosity should almost always net you at least one card. Against a good player, the Dazes suddenly become somewhat useless as they will attempt to play around them, so I think I will stick with -2 Daze, -2 Curiosity. Obviously I should get some play testing in...

Although sigil is obviously a powerful card, I feel that gilded is a more straightforward answer because it does not presuppose that you already

I think Gilded Drake is another decent option but my reasoning for going with Sigil is because it seems to have a stronger tie into the strategy of fish by being proactive, as well and being more universally. Sigil also has the advantage of being an instant-speed answer which will come in handy when dealing with Haste and Time Walk. I also don't like the idea of giving my opponent a 3/3 flying creature when playing a deck of 1/1's.

I think that a waterfront bouncer is probably better than a sigil because if it gets removed, it's not a 2-for-1.

I think you are forgetting that it costs a card to activate Waterfront bouncer. I'm not saying it's a bad solution as much as it's even worse when considering the card advantage aspects.

Jacob suggested, in WTF or WTF/r because of the additional unblockable river boas.

A river boas is no more unblockable than a Razorfin, but anyways, let's keep this discussion about UR instead of WTF.

Has anyone considered running an additional color to help against these problems?

I feel it is impossible to add an additional color without completely altering the premise of the deck. The deck already has 10 colorless mana sources which makes it very difficult to add anymore colors.

On a side note, considering the complete lack of basic lands in 4cc, has anyone actually tried Bloodmoon? You would probably have to go down to four Fetches and possibly drop a Mishra's and/or LoA to increase the Basic Island count, but considering how strong Blood Moon would be, it's probably worth attemping as it would completely counteract a CoW.

[Komatteru]

I also strongly disagree with Gilded Drake, as giving the 4CC player a 3/3 flyer isn't such a great idea.  You get the Angel, but she can be plowed, leaving you with nothing off the deal.  It is ironic that your opponent would have to use a StP to get rid of one of his own creatures, but the creatures you run in the deck aren't nearly as terrifying as an Angel.  However, 3/3 can be easily killed by blocking with a Cloud/Spiketail and firing with a Lavamancer, but that's a pretty terrible use of resources to get rid of an Angel.  Your opponent loses and Angel and an StP (which can be removed from the game with Scrying and wished back, so no big loss), while you lose your own Drake, 1/1 flyer, and 2 cards from your graveyard.  That's pretty terrible, especially since Fish can't afford to waste so many cards in the 4CC matchup.

We'll start with my current build:

Creatures (15)
4 Cloud of Faeries
4 Spiketail Hatchling
4 Grim Lavamancer
2 Voidmage Prodigy
1 Gorilla Shaman

Spells (10)
4 Force of Will
1 Misdirection
2 Daze
1 Stifle
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

Enchantments (8)
4 Standstill
4 Curiosity

Artifacts (4)
3 Null Rod
1 Mox Sapphire

Lands (23)
4 Mishras Factories
2 Faerie Conclave
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
5 Flooded Strand/Polluted Delta
4 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Library of Alexandria

I leave my sideboard off because it is still in development (trying all these ideas we've thrown around here), but, if you're interested, it currently looks like this:

1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Energy Flux
1 Fire/Ice
3 Meekstone
1 Pyroblast
2 Rack and Ruin
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Stifle
2 Squ'Ata Firewalker

The slots in bold and italic are the ones that I'm currently experimenting with (might drop 1 Firewalker, etc.).  This board has also never been tested against a Shop deck, as there are none in my meta (but we have everything else, including Dragon).

Yes, I have considered Blood Moon as a sideboard option.  It's very risky, as it stops your manlands and requires you to have basic islands in play (i.e., not Stripped out).  However, Blood Moon in conjunction with Null Rod totally finishes the 4CC player, as they must now rely on drawing a basic island (since they probably didn't fetch one out) to do anything (Cunning Wish -> Blue Blast).  I've seen that some builds (played by people who may post often on TMD   ) don't even include any basic Islands, in which case Blood Moon + Null Rod = good game.

It can be dangerous, as the number of basic Islands is limited and Blood Moon shuts off a good number of your best creatures (the ones that slip in under Standstill), forcing you to rely on the Lavamancer and whatever you have on the table.  Blood Moon still allows the 4CC player access to Fire and REBs, both of which are still effective against you as a Fish player.  Blood Moon does nothing to stop Force of Will as well, so your few working threats are vulnerable.

Fish gets upset if the opponent drops a Blood Moon (as they're prepared for it), but a Blood Moon of one's own could be some amazing surprise tech.  Again, I've considered it and added it to the list of things that need to be tested.

So, to recap, our the options we've considered here:
Maze of Ith - tried and tested, but vulnerable with Crucible in the board, doesn't allow your critters to get though

Sleeping Potion - decent, but reactive instead of proactive

Gilded Drake - reactive instead of proactive, giving away a 3/3 flyer without a real cheap and easy way to remove it is not a particularly strong strategy

Sigil of Sleep - requires a way to do unblockable damage, not so well supported by just 4 Lavamancers

Blood Moon - dangerous, but a terrific boon if you can pull it off, as it can spell disaster for the 4CC player (esp. in combination with Null Rod)

I also find myself siding out the Library many times, as it's hard to use effectively in this deck.  I don't think it would be missed terribly if you included another basic island instead.

[Kerith]

While Blood Moon is not too good against this deck, as Cloud still cycles and Voidmage Prodigy has Morph, what keeps me from playing it myself is the horrible horrible anti-synergy with Standstill. Those two cards just work together in no way. The CMC of 3 means you usually can drop Standstill not before turn 4, and that only if you have a basic Island. Also, it weakens the Standstill drastically because it destroys your manlands.
Somehow, I can also imagine 4cc players beating you up with face-down Angels, destroying your creatures with Fire, after you resolved Rod/Moon because you don't have any threats left yourself.

[orgcandman]

For all those people arguing sigil vs. guilded in fish, lets take a look at the two cards in a side-by-side comparison of their respective powerlevels:

Code:

[b]sigil of sleep[/b]   Color= Blue 	Type= Enchant Creature 	Cost= U 	 UD(C)
Text (UD): Whenever enchanted creature deals damage to a player, return target creature that player controls to its owner's hand.

Code:

[b]gilded drake[/b] Color= Blue 	Type= Creature - Drake 	Cost= 1U 	 US(R)
Text (US+errata): 3/3, Flying. ; When ~this~ comes into play, choose one - sacrifice ~this~; or exchange control of ~this~ and target creature an opponent controls. If you don't make the exchange, sacrifice ~this~. This ability can't be countered. (This effect doesn't end at end of turn.) [Oracle 2002/05/20]
# This effect is targeted, so Protection from Color will prevent targeting if Protection from Color exists when the ability would be announced. Once the ability is on the stack, adding Protection from Color will not counter the ability but the exchange will not take place since the target is illegal and you sacrifice this card on resolution. [bethmo 2000/02/02]
# If the chosen creature to exchange is not in play at resolution, then sacrifice this card. [D'Angelo 2000/01/16]
# Note - Also see Comes Into Play Abilities, Rule 410.10a.

Key Differences:
* With standstill on the board, sigil will work (if already played). Gilded will not.
* Sigil can be used to save a creature of your own (READ: anti-wasteland/fire/etc.. for lavamancers and factories)
* Gilded puts a dangerous creature in your hands (READ: turn a losing situation immediately into a winning situation)
* Sigil's ability works as an instant
* Sigil is never a dead card in hand (you should always have a target)
* Sigil is card disadvantage if your enchanted creature is destroyed
* Gilded is trouble if the creature you've gained control of is destroyed

Now look at the sideboard potential of each of these cards. Gilded is useful in matchups where extreme aggro pressure is put on you (welder based aggro decks, stompy, u/g madness). Sigil is ALSO useful in these matchups, being a reusable way to remove a creature from combat at instant speed. Gilded and Sigil are both pretty much completely dead in control matches. In combo, Sigil gets the nod over gilded due to dragon. To the rest of the field they're both pretty much dead.

IMHO, in case you haven't noticed where I'm going with this, Sigil gets the all around nod over gilded as it allows for reusable tricks in aggro, and isn't completely dead versus some combo.

BTW, I got the sigil idea from pern's OneFishLeft.dec and I think as a fish player one would be wise to look at that deck as I feel it is well beyond it's time in terms of construction.