Shoot first, ask questions later [Deck] Landstill Revisited

[HuntedWumpus]

I have to admit after it's recent showing I have wanted to make a thread discussing the possibly untapped potential this deck may hold. However I needed some time to steal the STG tourney list, and give it a few good test runs.

I would also like to state upfront, I take no credit for the construction of this list. I merely adapted the Matt Gronke version ran at the SCG tourney to better fit my local needs.

Landstill

2 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
1 Island
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black Lotus
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Faerie Conclave
4 Nevinyrral's Disk
4 Fire / Ice
4 Standstill
3 Brainstorm
3 Terferi’s Response
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
3 Annul
2 Stifle
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Regrowth

Sideboard
4 Oath of Druids
2 Darksteel Colossus
1 Gaea's Blessing
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Rack and Ruin
1 Misdirection  
3 Red Elemental Blast

So lets delve right into this

Three mainboard annuls gave me a shock until I realized how playable they are when not facing a Artifact based deck. Absolute bottom line worst case scenario, they are easily pitched to force, but they have more potential then may meet the eye at a casual glance. They can be effectively used against Moxen and even more potent the first turn lotus. Combining a turn 1 annul'ed mox with a wasteland or stifle fetch has the ability to cause major setbacks for many decks.

Of course their more noteworthy use it against any and all artifact decks. Going first, without mox or lotus, puts the chance to counter a big, or must counter turn 1 spell up to seven. The cheap counter also helps get the wave of man-lands active earlier laying down the beats against decks that can become dangerously active in the long term.

My addition of Terferi's Response was as much a meta choice as it was a logical addition in my thinking. Granted, you have fewer hard counters, but chances are you may have had to drain/force something in a game to protect a man-land. T'response Is simply much more effective at doing so, being able to deal with wastes and other land destroying effects, not to mention providing a supplementary draw engine.

The majority of the rest is fairly basic stuff, but there are few things worth covering . . .

I feel very strongly about having a four disk plan. There are arguments for less, but an early drain into disk and drastically alter the game state towards the favor of landstill.

Another Issue that should be addressed is the lack of access to Misdirection. I feel currently misdirection in the mainboard is more of a nice perk, not as much a must have. However having access to only one in the sideboard is not optimal, but I feel the best fit for the open slot is a mis-d over perhaps the last Terferi's or a second blessing.

Im glad I saw the regrowth on the net, I probably would have disregarded it. In testing it has been very good to be as a utility card. Most often going for a standstill or ancestral. I have considered using a mis-d instead and thus having access to two in the build, but it simply appears to have less potential here.

I have given fair amount of thought lately to yanking the Sapphire. I choose not to run the other moxen because they would only be tapping for manland activation, and tend to get disked. However the Sapphire stayed in the build for several reasons. First It can ease a turn one conclave. Secondly and far more importantly it is the blue producing accelerant that adds quick blue to a very blue hungry deck. But for a deck that likes having lots of mana on the board, Perhaps another tropical island would fit better, knowing that most games go long and activating manlands left and right is important.

Lastly the transformational board. . .

Yes, well its pretty basic. Move into Counter-Oath mode, this tactic has become very handy for tight matches.

Discussion please, thoughts. . .

Is the deck to obsolete to be played in a competitive meta? I tend to think not.

[BreathWeapon]

I'm just glad that Landstill finaly reached a T8 with Brainstorms, it was about fucking time somebody had the ballz to use the Fetch Land/Brainstorm engine. The Oath board was obviously included to SMASH Fish. Annuls are underrated, and one of the best answers you can have vs Crucible of Worlds. I definately think that Landstill should see more play, the archetype has a lot of room for improvement.

[Shock Wave]

I'm just glad that Landstill finaly reached a T8 with Brainstorms, it was about fucking time somebody had the ballz to use the Fetch Land/Brainstorm engine. The Oath board was obviously included to SMASH Fish. Annuls are underrated, and one of the best answers you can have vs Crucible of Worlds. I definately think that Landstill should see more play, the archetype has a lot of room for improvement.

If you choose to play with 3 colours, you have no other option but to go with fetchlands. I don't think the green splash is necessary. I'm curious as to how often Matt actually sided in the Oath strategy. Other than that, the list looks pretty standard. I think 3 Teferi's Response is a bit much right now, I would trim them down to 1 and play with at least 3 Stifle. The Annul is a nice touch, but really meta dependent IMO.

[Arvid]

Is it possible that the fetches/Brainstorms are needed as well for the Oath sideboard, to help avoiding scenarios where you draw the Colossus(es)?

As for the sideboard I would like to know what the BEB's and the lone Misdirection are for? If I would play a tournament tomorrow I would swap them for three more artefact hosers, probably 1 more R&R and 2 Energy Fluxes.

Another thing, is Gaea's Blessing really needed? In a worst case scenario the 2nd Colossus would be the last card in the deck, or? Seems quite unnecessary to take into calculations.

[HuntedWumpus]

I am very happy with the Terferi's Response's right now. Its soo effective against strip effects, CW for removal, and the Sligh (sigh) that we have it our meta. The additional card advantaged gained is also most welcome.

In testing, the use of the Oath based board varies from session to session, depending on what match's are played. With that in mind, the Oath board comes in often enough, and with effect to justify it. Here is a list of match's it can help with.

Any madness based deck
Sligh
Fish
Aggro Workshops
4ccontrol (if they pack 3 angels and tend to drop them fast and liberally)
Gat (risky, but at best they oath up a tog)
Assorted aggro

The brainstorm fetch as was pointed out is often very helpful when drawing up the blessing or a darksteel.

I guess you could run the deck without the blessing, but it would seem scary to not have it, and being its only 1 card for that much insurance it seems pretty logical.

[Necropotenza]

Bringing in Oath's against 4cC is not the best idea... Rebs, Responses and Misdirections will help you more.

[HuntedWumpus]

I agree absolutely, however There is one local player that loves to resolve super fast angels, Oath can help compensate for that.

[BreathWeapon]

Bringing in the Oath Engine is only a bad idea if they know your bringing in the Oath Engine. You could probably manage to steal a game with it easily, just don't expect it to work for game 3.

[Stupid_Newb]

If you really want to play this three color version of Landstill, you must ask yourself a few things about the deck:

1. Why is running Green better than running White, or even Black for that matter?
2. Is the transformation sideboard really worth it?
3. Would you be better off just running conventional U/R Landstill?

Running White, in my eyes, definately has an advantage over Green. You get Creature Removal (StP), Control (Meddling Mage), Artifact destruction (Disenchant), and probably one of the best Landstill finishers (Decree of Justice). I also think that Black is extremely underrated, and extremely underutilized. Duress, Mind Twist, Nether Spirit, Diabolic Edict, Yawgmoth's Will, and Demonic Tutor are all good Black cards you can consider for inclusion in your deck.

The transformation sideboard, while it can come in handy and win you some games, can be detected and stopped by game three, or, since you take up so many sideboard spots on it, you may not have the answers you would normally have for a certain matchup. To me, it would be a metagame descision, so that one is totally up to you.

Three color Landstill has its advantages, and disadvantages. It has versatility, and answers to more threats, but has a more unstable manabase in a deck that already is a bit shaky in the mana department. If you do choose to run three colors instead of two, make sure you've got your manabase figured out from head to toe, and make sure to watch out for Stifles if you run fetchlands (which is a must for Three Color Landstill).

Bottom Line: Running three colors (third color being Green) can be risky, so if you do choose to go that route, make sure you've got your deck figured out, and fitted to your metagame.

[Covetous]

Has chain of vapor fallen out of favor?  It seems like a natural answer for this deck, where nothing can be bounced (if you have a disk in play, do you really need a chain?).  I feel that teferi's response may be a better SB card than maindeck.  I would advocate cutting the responses for brainstorm #4 (why wouldn't you run this??) and two chains.  I'd also add another land because even 26 seems a little light, especially when you are running a mox and a lotus, both of which won't be around for long.  I would add another tropical, or even the 4th conclave (why aren't there 4 factories and 4 conclaves already?)  The sapphire should stay because it can allow turn 1 drain into turn 2 disk, a play which stunts the opponent and generally wins games.  The lack of misdirections is too bad, but probably not very important.  Brainstorm is a great card, and probably necessary with the SB oath plan.  

On the topic of the SB oath plan--I think it's a viable option, especially considering that you can oath then disk and have a board that is clear except for a colossus on your side.  Also, oath + standstill = tempo advantage, allowing you to beat face with your lands.  My question is--what do you take out for your oaths, colossusi and blessing (*which I think is necessary in any oath deck*)?  The real question about the oaths is this--does conversion to oathstill shore up the deck's weak matchups?  In theory, this deck has problems vs. pure aggro, disks notwithstanding.  So, also in theory, the oath sideboard technique can improve these matchups.  However, one caveat still exists--the older UR landstill builds generally had enough countermagic to out-counter control decks, but now the deck runs with fewer hard-counters, making me wonder if they can still out-counter 4cc/Tog/GAT, etc.  Although I like Annul, I still wonder if it is better than good ol' vanilla counterspell for added hard-counter consistency.

[BreathWeapon]

I imagine one of the key motivations for Oath is; Workshop Aggro, FCG, U/g Madness, Fish and GAT. If you look at the # of Creatures in the format, Oath is an extremely attractive option and adds dimentionality to the deck. It doesn't surprise me at all, considering the popularity of Oath/Still by Rogue players. I highly doubt that Disks and Oaths were ever in the MD at the same time tho'.

Chain of Vapor seems of little signifigance in the deck, and wastes MD slots. Arguably Echoing Truth would always be the better card, however it can't deal with Chalice@2 debilitating the entire deck. IMO, what Landstill really needs is 2xGorilla Shaman. Why not Chalice proof the deck and add a 2nd meens of Mana Denial, with the perq of being a "threat" under Standstill? You can't rely on Disk to do everything in Landstill in a timely fashion.

[MarkPharaoh]

Where the hell is Fastbond?  In this deck it's so broken it isn't funny...

[Shock Wave]

Where the hell is Fastbond?  In this deck it's so broken it isn't funny...

All should make note of that comment. Fastbond is absolutely retarded in Landstill.

[Arvid]

@Shockwave:
Sorry for the language barrier here, but do you mean that Fastbond is good or bad in Landstill?

[Shock Wave]

It's really good.

[lOlive]

I used to play the green splash for regrowth.
I prefer now to keep with UR and play mystical tutor, which is fine in this deck.

I added impulse in addition to brainstorm, because i just have 4 fetchland.
I LOVE this card, but more playtesting must be done.
This improved searching base allowed me to reduce disk from 4 to 3.

Annul looks like a nice idea,  should it replace chain of vapor or misdi?
I'm not sure. As you did, it's probably something to manage between MD and SB.
Naturalize was not an option for your green splash? Because of the mana base? Of titan?

To me, timewalk is not so good. It is either a win-more card, or just a cantrip. I never win because of timewalk.

I applause the 4->3 conclave. I do not know if it is classic for a landstill build, but it should be :)

My (humble) secret tech: MD masticore.  It usually wrecks fish. And helps against random aggro. It also survives the disk. Well, it sometimes gives you games you should have lost. Enough for me.

Any explanation for the BEB? Gobs? Blood moon? I don't see the point.

[Shock Wave]

I used to play the green splash for regrowth.
I prefer now to keep with UR and play mystical tutor, which is fine in this deck.

I added impulse in addition to brainstorm, because i just have 4 fetchland.
I LOVE this card, but more playtesting must be done.
This improved searching base allowed me to reduce disk from 4 to 3.

Annul looks like a nice idea,  should it replace chain of vapor or misdi?
I'm not sure. As you did, it's probably something to manage between MD and SB.
Naturalize was not an option for your green splash? Because of the mana base? Of titan?

To me, timewalk is not so good. It is either a win-more card, or just a cantrip. I never win because of timewalk.

I applause the 4->3 conclave. I do not know if it is classic for a landstill build, but it should be

My (humble) secret tech: MD masticore.  It usually wrecks fish. And helps against random aggro. It also survives the disk. Well, it sometimes gives you games you should have lost. Enough for me.

Any explanation for the BEB? Gobs? Blood moon? I don't see the point.

Well, I must say that you've arrived at quite different conclusions than myself. I found Mystical Tutor to be ok, but not worth the slot. I'd much rather have an answer in its place. What did you cut to support Brainstorm *and* Impulse? Something must've suffered, either your manabase or your answers.

Time Walk is extremely important in this deck. This is an issue where play style and metagame have no bearing, it is just that crucial.

[wuaffiliate]

I cannot see any reason to run mystical, aside from running balance.

You do win because of Time Walk you just dont realise it.

[Zelyon]

The deck looks solid, I have a question regarding the sideboard.

How often do you find that you would be better off if the Rack and Ruin were Artifact Mutation.  I often prefer the lower casting cost (helps against land destruction) and the huge tempo boost (getting 10 1/1 counters when I destroy a 7/10) to the ability to take out what usually ends up being one big threat and a mox.

Time Walk I would argue is the most broken card in magic if not fighting for the slot with Ancestral Recall, Black Lotus, and Yawgmoth's Will. Not only does it mean that you are essentially playing the 59 cards but it gets a whole another land drop (huge in landstill) and a whole another turn.

There is NO reason to cut Time Walk, ever.

[Shock Wave]

The deck looks solid, I have a question regarding the sideboard.

How often do you find that you would be better off if the Rack and Ruin were Artifact Mutation.  I often prefer the lower casting cost (helps against land destruction) and the huge tempo boost (getting 10 1/1 counters when I destroy a 7/10) to the ability to take out what usually ends up being one big threat and a mox.

That's a good point. If what we're concerned about in the current meta is Workshop decks, Artifact Mutation is definitely worth consideration, especially with the rise of Stax again. There's always the issue of ease of casting cost, but Landstill typically runs 4 Stifle to protect its mana base so it should be ok.

[lOlive]

Time Walk I would argue is the most broken card in magic if not fighting for the slot with Ancestral Recall, Black Lotus, and Yawgmoth's Will. Not only does it mean that you are essentially playing the 59 cards but it gets a whole another land drop (huge in landstill) and a whole another turn.

There is NO reason to cut Time Walk, ever.

To me, it is very important for Landstill to focus on cards that bring answers. Brainstorm is fine for mana smoothing and deck digging, Impulse is VERY GOOD at deck digging and mystical tutor is nice with both of them. Such cards can get you what you need the most (fire/ice, chain of vapor, fow and disk) when you need it the most.

Time walk won't help much against an angry tog, a smokestack or a big mind twist running at you.

Ok, Timewalk is great and can make games.
But deck digging and efficient tempo in Landstill must definitely be considered. And that means sacrifing slots for that.

Note: did I mention I LOVE impulse?

[MarkPharaoh]

Why run cards to find answers when those cards CAN BE ANSWERS?!  I'm sorry, but you have very little experience with the deck if you think Time Walk shouldn't be included...

[HuntedWumpus]

Sorry I could not keep up with my own topic. I was away for a few days.

Good point about artifact mutation, It seems to me that it would be a better choice here.

As for the whole color argument. The only Viable way I see to play this deck is with U/R/g. The transformational  board improves to Many COMMON match's not to have access to. The most lethal example of this is fish, which shows its Gay face in the top eight of most big events.

Lastly when it comes to answers, I believe the maindeck is fairly well optimum. I guess its possible you don't see the true value of Terferi's response until you really test with it, but I consider it to be one of the strongest cards in the deck.

Why?
Its almost never dead. Almost every competitive deck runs either wasteland or a form of removal, all of which are heavily raped by the response.

Also you have to give mad props to the sudden influx of cards into your hand. The secondary draw engine can really get the deck going at an absurd rate.

[Shock Wave]

As for the whole color argument. The only Viable way I see to play this deck is with U/R/g. The transformational  board improves to Many COMMON match's not to have access to. The most lethal example of this is fish, which shows its Gay face in the top eight of most big events.

lol. Are you implying that Landstill loses to Fish? Landstill should almost always beat fish. Sure, it might be an even easier matchup with Oath in the sideboard, but why improve an already favourable matchup? What else do you side Oath in against? Goblins? That's another matchup that you should be winning.

On the flipside, look how much this deck has sacrificed against combo. There was no Chalice and no Crypt (!!) in the sideboard. Without the Oath combo, you can shore up a lot of the tougher matchups that should be expected in a large, competitive metagame. It's really brave to run a sideboard without Crypts, and losing the Chalices is also not a good idea.

[BreathWeapon]

I imagine Artifact Mutation should be used in the Green Splash, however it should only be used as an additional win condition. Landstill has serious issues with Chalice=2, which is why Rack&Ruin probably got the nod. However, I think Oxidize is also a great card. Considering it's 1cc removal for Chalice and Mana Denial, it's hard to argue against using atleast 1 or 2.

I also agree that the Green splash probably isn't worth the effort. The only time I'd be tempted to run Oaths is for Artifact Aggro, which is a HUGE problem for Landstill. I'd be more tempted to run a full set of Rack&Ruin first, or I'd splash White for STP, Balance and DoJ/Exalted. Have a secondary kill condition is plush with Crucibles running rampant.

@Richard, I don't think any one plays with Tormod's Crypt or Chalice of the Void in their SBs anymore, Combo is having an awful time with 4cc and Fish ruling the metagame. I'd probably dedicate my SB to Artifact Removal, Rack&Ruin and Gorilla Shaman being the best choices.

[Shock Wave]

@Richard, I don't think any one plays with Tormod's Crypt or Chalice of the Void in their SBs anymore, Combo is having an awful time with 4cc and Fish ruling the metagame. I'd probably dedicate my SB to Artifact Removal, Rack&Ruin and Gorilla Shaman being the best choices.

Hmm, well I suppose the underlying issue is how you approach your SB strategy. I personally like to have as diversified an SB as possible because IMO it's too risky to guess as to what the dominant decks are going to be. I wouldn't cut Dragon out, nor would I cut out Belcher or TPS.

[HuntedWumpus]

Im planning to attend a power tourney this sat, so looking at that particular SB strategy is important for me in the next few days. I know that the format will include a hefty amount of Fish, coupled with  lots of workshops. Some in aggro form, some in prison form, stax will probably show up too.

In addition to this Control will show up in a decent amount, and there will be a few silly newbs sprinkled in.

Im going to Want artifact hate, probably in the form of Rack and Ruin an mutation.

So will the many slots of the transformational board pull their weight. In this case I tend to think yes for a couple of reasons.

First of this deck hasn't been seen locally since, well, a long time. So the board will probably be a shocker at least a few times.
Secondly Im destined to see fish at least once in the swiss, and probably in the top eight if I make it.

[TheRock]

Teferi's Response is a great card, but it is extremely situational.  You have to play it when your opponent lets you play it, and more often than not, it's at a bad time.

Honestly, I think that it is acceptable not to run Crypt or Chalice in the sideboard, but in that case, I would definitely want multiple copies of Chain of Vapor instead.  Chain can be a small help against any aggro deck and still gives you something to combat Dragon.

Dragon won't struggle a whole lot against Fish right now.  Most Fish sideboards aren't packing that much for the Dragon matchup either, and it's not because the matchup is favorable.  Fish has to devote slots for stopping FCG, Madness, and most artifact-based decks as well.

Edit - Spelling errors.

[circus]

How often do you find that you would be better off if the Rack and Ruin were Artifact Mutation.  I often prefer the lower casting cost (helps against land destruction) and the huge tempo boost (getting 10 1/1 counters when I destroy a 7/10) to the ability to take out what usually ends up being one big threat and a mox.

Artifact Mutation is keyed to converted mana cost, so you would only get 8 1/1 tokens.  Still a nice boost.

[BreathWeapon]

Is boarding vs Dragon even necessary? 5 Wastelands, 4 Disks and 3-4 Stifle is a hell of a beating vs Dragon. If Keeper does well against Dragon with out boarding H8, I don't see why Landstill should even bother.