The Meandeck Titan SCG tourney report

[Hi-Val]

Linkage:

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=7819

I finally got it written up so all the adoring masses can see how I did. I'm happy to answer any questions posters might have on the deck.

[Lashkar]

Nice report, funny style

I should point out that Gothenburg is swedish though

[Whatever Works]

I am a fan of the deck, and have had good results with the deck. A change to the deck that i recently made that i found incredibly successful was switching a Sac Land for a Darksteel Collossus. I believe that the collossus belongs in the deck, because besides 4cc most decks cant answer it... it kills opponent titans (which you said cause standoffs), and get around Rack and Ruin (that appeared to cause problems as described in your report.)

My question about your deck is do you really think black is needed in the deck??? Playtesting has shown the deck is incredibly tight, but with the increased #'s of CoW + wasteland etc. that are seen in most workshop decks, and the usual 5 strip effects you see in the other tier 1 decks (fish, 4cc). I just see that maybe dropping black could lead to more consistency in the mana base, and help your matchup against fish etc.

I am testing something like this:
-2 Underground Sea
+2 Island
-1 Demonic Tutor
-1 Yawgmoth's Will
+2 Fire/Ice
OR
+2 Cunning Wish

The arguement for running black is that yawgmoth's will and demonic are broken to hell... no arguements there... but considering the high # of fish decks you will see at gencon (no proxys aloud there) maybe keeping a few extra basic lands and maindeck Fire/Ice to deal with opponents welders/shamans/vandals might be more usful in a less broken kinda way. This idea is based on the concept that testing the deck vs. the bad post sideboard matchups i have had hard times protection the mana base, and if the mana base is maintained your going to win by resolving just 1 of the decks many broken spells (though it would be 2 less then previously.) Just wondering if you have considered (or already have) tested the deck without black?

[Caelestis]

While I agree with the idea that Black can (or should) be dropped for consistency and a better manabase against Fish, I don't think additional Islands are the way to go. If you were to cut a Fetch for a Colossus, then the Undergrounds probably should change to Shivan Reef, as I've found Welder to be extremely important.

With the slots for Demonic and Yawgwin, I don't believe they should be Cunning Wish. Fire/Ice can be a viable option, but Cunning Wish is at a loss in that the deck is quite reliant on the Chalice to seal up combo games, and that it is not something you can Intuition for, as occasionally to seal up a game you will be Intuitioning for Demonic and other broken spells. So either those slots should be Fire/Ice, or you can md a Platinum Angel and have another random power card (Memnarch? Stax has been on a rise).

[Hi-Val]

I would rather put Duplicant in than Colossus, as he takes out racing angels and Titans and at 2/4, is a healthy body against Fish even if you don't imprint. That, and it's pretty easy to cast one as well as opposed to Colossus.

The deck needs another land or two above anything else. Darksteel Citadel or another Island would be my first two choices. Both are stable, though I lean more towards the Island, as Mana Draining on turn 2 is crucial to the deck's development.

I had been working on a 2-color version on the side. Yawgmoth's Will allows so much idiocy though, mostly in that it can bring back several moxes and guarantee something like 4 more turns of slaving the opponent.

[Elric]

Do you ever find that you don't have enough artifacts to use Thirst well?  With 12 artifacts, you can't rely on your 3 draws from Thirst to give you one, but holding back on some of the 9 mana artifacts slows down a deck that, with only 24 mana sources, can use all of the mana it can get.  Especially given the number of Wastelands right now, I think that another land would be a really good choice (I might be somewhat biased because so many of the decks I play against have Wastes, though).

Will is so ridiculous in this deck.  Your main threat, Welders, cost R, your card-draw spells leave you with a huge graveyard and you play plenty of Moxes to bring back.  Demonic Tutor is a second Will or Tinker and those cards win so many games.  Also, Tinker-Platinum Angel is incredible against a lot of decks (and I have been on both ends of the table) post-side.

edit: hit submit early

[Klep]

Do you ever find that you don't have enough artifacts to use Thirst well?  With 12 artifacts, you can't rely on your 3 draws from Thirst to give you one,

The fact is that this deck has an insane amount of draw between the two engines.  It is going to have very little trouble finding artifacts when it desires to cast a Thirst.

[Whatever Works]

Will is amazing in almost any deck, and this deck is no acception, but with a deck like this you only need to resolve 1 spell half the time to just outright win the game, and will is just another one of those spells. Its an amazing card, but i dont think any deck should add an extra color for just that 1 card and a demonic tutor... the changes i would make to the deck after rethinking the manabase etc. is this...

-2 Underground Sea
-1 Demonic Tutor
-1 Yawgmoth's Will

+1 Fire/Ice (Could be a mana source OR 4th Intuition? Is that overboard?)
+1 Darksteel Collossus (Just SO good vs. SO many decks)
+1 Duplicant
+1 Island

Other cards I am considering are:

1-2 Triskillion Sideboard vs. FCG/Fish
1 Duplicant Sideboard to support 1 I run Maindeck
2 Fire/Ice Sideboard so you would have 3 against fish post board

How has chalice worked for you against Combo??? Its a good card, but it appears that it would often hurt you as much as it would hurt combo... you have ALOT of 1-2 Casting cards... and SoLoMoxen... what would u put chalice for, and is there any other card you have considered against Combo that might be more effective?

[jpmeyer]

Against which decks will a Tinker'ed out Colossus win you a game that a Tinker'ed Titan couldn't?  I think that's the important question.

[dromar]

Against which decks will a Tinker'ed out Colossus win you a game that a Tinker'ed Titan couldn't? I think that's the important question.

 An interesting point. I like to make my own deck for T1 tourneys (or at least tweak netdecks for my play style) and one of the win conditions for my deck was to tinker a DSC, otherwise I had Masticore and Morphling (btw, in that deck I also chose to add black for WiN and Demonic). I was relatively new at T1 at the time, and hadn't even some of the cards in Mirrodin block. Anyways, when I saw Sundering Titan for the first time I knew I wanted it instead of DSC. It's like a super strip effect, and a win condition.

 In conclusion, JP makes a strong point. Big vs. Big says DSC is better, but I think Sundering Titan's disabling power takes the game more often. DSC is just a less disabling and less castable version of Sundering Titan.

[Whatever Works]

Against which decks will a Tinker'ed out Colossus win you a game that a Tinker'ed Titan couldn't? I think that's the important question.

Hmmm... Random Tier 2 decks and Mirror match or normal 7/10 split... OK!!! you proved your point JP, its not good against most decks, I just like the card, because its nice to have something in play that isnt going way (unless they got Swords.) Sundering Titan is the only form of mana denial, and often decks can opperate on moxes, and in situations like this titan is better because it gets around rack and ruin. In short, in most situations sundering titan is the more explosive card, but with titan you know its going to hang around. This doesnt mean that everytime i cast tinker i am going to search for Collossus. In most cases its a 2ndary option that can be effective depending on what they are playing.

[jpmeyer]

Against which decks will a Tinker'ed out Colossus win you a game that a Tinker'ed Titan couldn't? I think that's the important question.

Hmmm... Random Tier 2 decks and Mirror match or normal 7/10 split... OK!!! you proved your point JP, its not good against most decks, I just like the card, because its nice to have something in play that isnt going way (unless they got Swords.) Sundering Titan is the only form of mana denial, and often decks can opperate on moxes, and in situations like this titan is better because it gets around rack and ruin. In short, in most situations sundering titan is the more explosive card, but with titan you know its going to hang around. This doesnt mean that everytime i cast tinker i am going to search for Collossus. In most cases its a 2ndary option that can be effective depending on what they are playing.

Actually, I really am curious as to if there are matchups where it would be a better target!

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

Fish and Stax. I've found that a titan is sometimes not enough to beat fish. By the time you get it, you're at low life, and they can just race you by holding back a cloud and swinging with everything. Postboard, it blows ass, as they'll bring in maze's. Versus stax, I like having a 2 turn clock. This prevents any crazy smokestack shenanegance to happen.

[Whatever Works]

Decks Collosus is good vs
Gay/r
7/10 (non basic land version which is more popular)
Stax
FCG
Workshop Agro/Affinity/etc.
Random crappy tier 2 deck ---> Mono Color decks (WW/Sui Black/Stompy)

Collosus against most Workshop decks can be incredibly easy to cast when opponents have Guilded Lotus etc. mana drained.

Collosus In my opinion is a very worthy target vs. 7/10. This is the case because it kills enemy titans, and because your titans dont affect most 7/10 decks because they dont run duels (with the acception of this deck). Grabbing Titan is also very nice when mana denial is not as helpful when they have several moxes out. This leads to the question, is running 1-2 maindeck Shaman worth considering to go along with the land denial theme of the deck??? My initial answer would be no, because the deck is not strictly land destruction, but 1 major threat that uses land destruction as a way to cripple opponent and ensure victory... However, it might be worth considering.

The Main reason for grabbing Collosus is because its good vs. Fish/Stax/7-10 that runs few basic lands... and wont just totally be hosed by Rack and ruin or the billion other answers to artifacts that most decks have easy acess too. This being the situation if destroying a few land wont affect the outcome of a game (fish or decks where opponent might lose like 1 land), it may be a stronger choice to just grab a Collossus.

Concerning Maze of Ith... Tsabo's web is a great way to buy time, and is probably one of the best answers availible to Gay/r at the moment.

[Hi-Val]

I think the best answer to 7/10 is Duplicant because you turn their clock into your own. When you dance it in and out, you take care of the rest of their clocks as well.

In any situation where Colossus is better than Titan, Duplicant is better than Colossus, excepting certain Fish situations, and even then if you nail their flier or Lavamancer you buy time to dance it.

[Eddie]

Decks Collosus is good vs
...
FCG

I'd rather have the Titan against FCG. Destroying 2 of their lands (if they have Taiga in play) is usually game. Even against the "crappy tier 2" decks Titan is a better option.

I'm not sure why people would try to fit in a Darksteel Colossus instead of using Titan. If Titan leaves, so what? Their mana base is destroyed in the process and they won't survive that anyway. You shouldn't care about indestructible. As Hi-Val pointed out, Duplicant is far better than the Colossus as a second option.

I prefer this version over the one Atog Lord is playing. The draw engine is sick. The raw speed of the deck is incredible.

The only down side is that it's a lot tougher to play against a Gorilla Shaman. I'm trying to fix this in the deck. Darksteel Citadel is great, but hard to fit in. I'm thinking to drop an Intuition and put something there to help me kill the shaman. Trisk or Wish seem the best cards at this time to do the job. (Edit: with Wish, I don't drop the 3rd Intuition. Instead I move Fact or Fiction to the side). But I'm still testing. Of course, all depends on how many shamans you expect to see. Last time, half the field was 4c control, so I'd say I encounter enough of them.

[TutoreIlluminato]

In my version i made this changes:

- 2 Underground Sea
- 1 Library of Alexandria
- 1 Demonic Tutor
- 1 Yawgmoth's Will

+ 2 Island
+ 2 Cunning Wish
+ 1 Seat of the Synod/Shivan Reef (still undecided)

While black gives you 2 bombs, it weaks your manabase, and sometimes there are problems with the Titan who wants to destroy a swamp. Reducing land types of the deck to 2 is a good choice (and you have now 4 basic islands, to better support a possible sb Blood Moon and to prevent to be screwed by opponent's Wastelands).
I think also that 15 blue mana suources is the minimum for a control deck.
In my metagame (Italian) Library is quite slow, because you have to face many Stacker, TPS and Dragon and you need always UU on turn 2. Then your draw engine is faster and more brutal than Library of Alexandria.
I felt the lack of removal (for Shamans, opposing Welders, variuos artifact...) was a trouble for the original deck. Including 2 Cunning Wish gives you flexibility in every situation(Fire/Ice, Starstorm, Rack and Ruin, blasts...). I think this is the way to go: a more resiliant and flexible deck.

[Whatever Works]

Have people actually liked Cunning Wish in the deck??? I originally thought it was a good idea, and then after testing found that it was just sooo slow in this deck. I would rather use my mana at the EOT to cast Intuition/TfK/etc...

[Hi-Val]

I tried cunning wish quite a lot in a 2-color version and found that they just sat in my hand. Without something that I always want to wish for or can win me the game (Scrying in the first case, Berserk in the second) that it just sat there as a slow answer to Welders/Shamans/Null Rods. I'd much rather like, as Whatever Works said, to cast a draw spell at the end of turn. Cunning Wish for Fact or Fiction is 7 mana that could be used to cast Intuition/AK/AK.

A single maindeck answer will be seen when playing thanks to the draw power, but I am not sure how early or how relevantly it will be seen. Duplicant is a great target because it works under Null Rod and is Tinkered out, but without moxes it can be hard to weld in. Fire/Ice is probably the best bet in this case, but I am hesitant to cut anything out.

[Hi-Val]

Also, just thought I'd mention this. The deck won a tournament in Europe with the exact same maindeck:

http://mtg.bore.org/article.php?id=482

Obviously it's written in clown-speak that I don't understand, but the important bits are there. My success was not a fluke (not that anyone was claiming it was).

[Caelestis]

@Hi-Val

On the Control Slaver thread, you mentioned that you have Duresses in the Chalice slots, what disruption would you use in a 2-Color build? Would you continue to use Chalice?

[tehmajickguy]

@ Hi-Val:

In the Control Slaver topic, you mentioned the addition of Duplicant to the main deck due to the strength he brings in any match-up. While I can see that it would appear to be a very strong addition to the deck, the decklist is extremely tight as it is. How did you go about fitting him in without reducing the decks draw power or ability to disrupt the opponent while setting up the win?

[Methuselahn]

Congrats on the finish!!!

I think the Colossus/Duplicant/Titan issue is simple.  The deck is about board impact, not beatdown.  So why would you want Colossus?  That is a waste of a utility.  Personally, I'd rather see a Duplicant than a Titan, but that sounds like a meta call.  Welding in a Duplicant at instant speed is hott vs Dragon (Well, having the threat of doing so anyway).  Also, when you Intuition, you want to be able to get Duplicant, Slaver, Platinum.  You don't want to get Colossus, Slaver, Platinum.  That's just dumb.

Now, whether this deck is better than Rich Shay's Control Slaver of the awesome Team Reflection is for another conversation entirely.  

[TrixR4Kidz]

Take my word for it on this, you don't want to play darksteel in that deck, I've been playing my peronalized version of 7/10 (which by the way has been doing great for me) for a while, and I recently cut out my darksteel coloussus for another titan, and titans are just so much better in EVERY aspect, people can deal with darksteel just as easily as they can deal with titan... It sounds stupid, but it's true....Duplicant I believe is a must in this deck, A few of my team members were playing around with it and I notice it can't really do anything to anything on the board... it has no answers... so if something resolves, then it seems to be in trouble

however the draw in this deck is just ridiculous, it semi-combo's out, and it's so good when it gets going, but realistically the deck loses to ground seal and damping matrix, I don't know if you have ever thought about putting at least 1 cunning wish main?

[Whatever Works]

people can deal with darksteel just as easily as they can deal with titan

I guess you dont see Rack and Ruin as much as I do.
Darksteel Collosus vs. Duplicant arguement...

Adv. For Collosus:
-Stays on board longer
-Bigger
-Does not need the opponent to have a creature on the board to be effective.
-better early game tinker target

Adv. for Duplicant:
2 for 1
Shuts down enemy creatures
Very good vs. Angels
Nice welding target

Why I Believe 1 Collosus is good to have in the deck:

If your playing vs. 4cc or Tog etc... and they have an angel/tog on board... they have most likely taken over the game at some point in time, and you resolving a Duplicant is not very likely... Duplicant is very weak during the first 2-3 turns before your opponent has a threat (the same can sometimes be said for Titan, because so many decks that can be a problem run off moxes etc. easily. A titan is just a way to put pressure on the opponent, and technically say "find an answer NOW or your dead on turn 4, and this answer is going to have to occur while you cast nothing, and are holding double counter back up with incredible draw.

I still believe that Duplicant is superior to Darksteel Collosus, but i find it a very very usful card to have in the deck, because of its ability to just win the game before the opponent can caster a big creature that would be needed to abuse the card.

[dromar]

I still believe that Duplicant is superior to Darksteel Collosus, but i find it a very very usful card to have in the deck, because of its ability to just win the game before the opponent can caster a big creature that would be needed to abuse the card.

True. DSC is a game win in certain situations. If Rack and Ruin is popular where you play, maybe it should be in. I don't know if it warrants a valuable card slot though, but it could be ok in side if you're not sure. Side it in where it'll shine, and leave it out where it's not as valuable.

[rvs]

@W/e Works: Collosos is almost as good vs Angels as Duplicant is. Maybe even better, since it actually hits harder and is more of a real threath that way.

[TrixR4Kidz]

@W/e Works: Collosos is almost as good vs Angels as Duplicant is. Maybe even better, since it actually hits harder and is more of a real threath that way.

I don't know about this, 4cC usually only runs 2-3 angels, so duplicant sets them back so much and it hurts them so much that it's hard to recover from.... you tinker in darksteel they can swords it, they can also swords dupicant but not before you take out an angel....I mainly playtested DSC vs. 4Cc, and i've only won with it like once outta tons and tons of games, it always ended up dieing... they can balance it away, cunning wish, and swords it, so they have like 5 maindeck ways to get rid of it

Edit: not to mention it can't be welded which is HUGE and annoying to draw him in your opening hand, also this deck runs 3 intuition, you can't abuse darksteel with this card.

[Eddie]

MoreFling wrote:

@W/e Works: Collosos is almost as good vs Angels as Duplicant is. Maybe even better, since it actually hits harder and is more of a real threath that way.

I don't know about this, 4cC usually only runs 2-3 angels, so duplicant sets them back so much and it hurts them so much that it's hard to recover from.... you tinker in darksteel they can swords it, they can also swords dupicant but not before you take out an angel

Also, You can respond to the swords by welding out the duplicant for another artifact in the graveyard. Doing that with the Colossus will result in shuffling it back in your library.

Whatever Works, one of your pro Colossus points states that it stays longer. I say that other artifacts (Titan and Duplicant) can be protected by other means than countering a destruction spell. Welder tricks are hard to pull of with the Colossus. Therefore, both stay with equal ease.

Obviously it's written in clown-speak that I don't understand, but the important bits are there. My success was not a fluke (not that anyone was claiming it was).

It's in Finnish. Also, I T8ed in Eindhoven with the same MD.

Edit: TrixR4Kidz, I didn't see your edit to your post. You said just what I meant to. This means you need another heavy artifact to do the Intuition trick.

[Whatever Works]

My thought is that if you have a welder on the board, and any threats at all you probably should have won the game already.  Collosus is a card that i would preffer early in the game before the opponent has alot of creatures etc. I also believe that out of all the matchups Collosus is the weakest vs. 4cc, because of STP, but then again the first thing 4cc wishes for vs. you is a rack and ruin or a scrying, both of which if they resolve will take over the game.

If you factor in the theat of choice, and a welder it sometimes can obscure the actually ability of the card. It is very hard to keep a welder on the board in todays metagame. That being said why would your opponent swords the duplicant when they could swords the welder to begin with?