Spiketail Vs. Daze

[Lockdown]

This question has always intrigued me.  In a game, which have you found more helpful: Spiketail Hatchling or Daze?

Spiketail Hatchling

      Color= Blue    Type= Creature - Drake    Cost= 1U    PY(C)/8(U)
      Text (PY/8th): 1/1, Flying. ; Sacrifice ~this~: Counter target spell unless its controller pays .

Daze

      Color= Blue    Type= Instant    Cost= 1U    NE(C)
      Text (NE+errata): You may return an Island you control to its owner's hand rather than pay ~this~'s mana cost. ; Counter target spell unless its controller pays . [Oracle 2003/07/01]

Each has its individual merits.  Daze is much more likely to actually counter a spell and gives the opponent a sense of uncertainty.  Whereas Spiketail Hatchling is a certainty, forcing your opponent to play around it, giving yourself a tempo boost.  Daze, on the other hand, can be played for free, but costing you some tempo in the process.  Vote now:  Which card has been better for you?

[zipykido]

Spiketail=creature
creature=damage
damage+curiosity=card advantage

I think that sums up everything

[M.Solymossy]

i think he ment as a straight up counter.  as a counter ability, which works better....


but you got it right..


anyways....

in game, i have dazed their threats, but they just force of will the daze, and then go big.  it worked like this....

i was playing against madness with fish, obviously.  well, he had a mox emerald untapped, and he played a lotus.  i dazed, he force'd the daze.  he then proceeds to go wild mongrel with UU floating, going into 3 rootwalla's and an anger in the grave and timewalk's with UU floating.  If i had spiketail, he couldn't have timewalked playing 2 arrogant wurms next turn.

spiketail all the way.  it forces them to play around it.

[Pex]

Spiketail=creature
creature=damage
damage+curiosity=card advantage

I think that sums up everything

Spiketail with Curiosity... Can be good somethimes. but when he plays something and you counter it with your Spike you lose your Curiosity and that's not good.

[Sandster]

Spiketail=creature
creature=damage
damage+curiosity=card advantage

I think that sums up everything

Spiketail with Curiosity... Can be good somethimes. but when he plays something and you counter it with your Spike you lose your Curiosity and that's not good.

However, you should have gotten at LEAST one, most likely much more, card from a curious Spiketail (unless you are just a terrible fish player).  Spiketail is usually more useful than Daze simply because 1) Daze is a spell, while Spiketai's ability is not, and 2) as said previously, creatures are good both because they are threats and because of Curiosity.

Still, Daze is very good in its own right.

[cardiffgiant]

Daze works on the first turn. Spiketail is sitting in your hand waiting to be pitched to FoW. Spiketail is only mana denial when in play. Once you play Daze, it's a threat whenever you have a card in your hand.

[cssamerican]

The Spiketail has to be in play for it to be effective; Daze just has to be in your deck. Notice I said deck and not hand, people play around the card just because they know you might have one in hand. I have played many games and never even seen one of my two Dazes and watched people play around them as if they knew I had them in hand. It is like playing with an extra card, almost feels like cheating at times. This to me is the main reason to play with Daze; the mind blowing psychological effect it seems to cause in some people. And the funny thing is those same people will get aggravated later on in another game and you will have a Daze in hand, which only seems to strengthen their belief that you always have one in hand. MindGames4Life:)

[zipykido]

The Spiketail has to be in play for it to be effective; Daze just has to be in your deck. Notice I said deck and not hand, people play around the card just because they know you might have one in hand. I have played many games and never even seen one of my two Dazes and watched people play around them as if they knew I had them in hand. It is like playing with an extra card, almost feels like cheating at times. This to me is the main reason to play with Daze; the mind blowing psychological effect it seems to cause in some people. And the funny thing is those same people will get aggravated later on in another game and you will have a Daze in hand, which only seems to strengthen their belief that you always have one in hand. MindGames4Life:)

Are you sure this isn't because your dazes are also backed up my Fow and mana drain? Also what happens when they realize you don't have a daze in your hand?

[theorigamist]

Spiketail and Daze are best used together.  You really shouldn't be using one without the other.

[cssamerican]

Of course the deck I play Daze in (Gay/R) has Force of Wills and Spiketail Hatchlings. But like I mentioned in my previous post, some people literally will not cast spells unless they have additional mana to pay the Daze cost if need be. Then after several games they get aggravated and quit worrying about Daze, then of course I happen to Daze their spell, which only reaffirms their fear that I always seem to have a Daze in hand (Of course I don’t, but they never seem to figure that out). It truly is one of the weirdest and most effective psychological tools in Magic. It is like a poker player who is bluffing you time and time again, but seemingly everytime you call him he has got pocket pairs. Eventually you just play your hand as if he has pocket pairs all the time.

[mongrel12]

The issue I've been having lately with daze is this--the deck is gay/r:
Hand: Lavamancer. Fetch. Daze. Standstill. Land. Two other cards (no FoW).

Turn 1: Fetch into a volcanic. Play lavamancer.

Them: Land. Go. Your upkeep: Ancestral.

Daze? And lose tempo and a potentially explosive start, or let the ancestral resolve, and the opponent find answers to your threats?

[theorigamist]

Turn 1: Fetch into a volcanic. Play lavamancer.

Them: Land. Go. Your upkeep: Ancestral.

Daze? And lose tempo and a potentially explosive start, or let the ancestral resolve, and the opponent find answers to your threats?

You absolutely Daze.  You lose slight tempo, but you show the possibilities of Daze, and you get your second card into the graveyard for Lavamancer, and they don't draw three cards.  I don't really see how there's a question here.  In fact, if you tap the Volcanic for red, Daze the Ancestral, and then use Lavamancer afterwards with the red floating and the Fetch and Daze in the graveyard, you haven't really wasted the missing land drop.

[SpikeyMikey]

The issue I've been having lately with daze is this--the deck is gay/r:
Hand: Lavamancer. Fetch. Daze. Standstill. Land. Two other cards (no FoW).

Turn 1: Fetch into a volcanic. Play lavamancer.

Them: Land. Go. Your upkeep: Ancestral.

Daze? And lose tempo and a potentially explosive start, or let the ancestral resolve, and the opponent find answers to your threats?

Fish is a solid deck.  It's not an explosive deck.  Drawing cards is good for fish not because they find stupid broken restricted cards, but because it keeps your hand full of solid threats and countermagic.  On the other hand, your average control deck, tog or 4cc, is an explosive deck.  They're heavy control decks, but you are going to have problems with an early resolved tog or exalted angel.  Not as much, obviously, if you've got mancer in play, but I would say the general rule of thumb is that you would rather that neither of you draw cards than both of you drawing cards.  You've got the threats, they've got the answers.  The less they draw, the less answers they find, and the longer your threats have to win the game for you.

To illustrate this point, let's take it to the extreme.  What do you think your win % would be against 4cc if you both started with 7 cards and never got to draw another one?  Probably about 90-95%, right?

[zipykido]

Daze is in no means the best answer to ancestral. If you've ever faced fully powered 4cc you'll know what i mean. First turn drops usually include one or two moxen. When it comes to dealing with ancestral it usually comes down to misdirection being your best option. Daze also is also less useful in taking down exalteds. Spiketail has the power to chump block.

[SpikeyMikey]

Daze is in no means the best answer to ancestral. If you've ever faced fully powered 4cc you'll know what i mean. First turn drops usually include one or two moxen. When it comes to dealing with ancestral it usually comes down to misdirection being your best option. Daze also is also less useful in taking down exalteds. Spiketail has the power to chump block.

Yes, but the incident in question, you don't have a spiketail, you have a daze, and they have no moxen.  In which case, you daze the fuck out of ancestral and resign yourself to dropping standstill 2 turns too late.