Krark-Clan Ironworks Combo

[waSP]

It's time to bring to the public what would have been an extremely strong competitor at the Star City Games tournament, had anyone known about it.  I was going to save it for GenCon and surprise the field with it, but due to a number of circumstances, I am unable to go.

This deck has a very strong matchup against Fish, requiring the Fish player to get Null Rod and Grim Lavamancer to win game 1 (barring a great imbalance in draws).  Game 2 it brings in enough fat to destroy absolutely destroy Fish, leaving combo'ing as the contingency plan.

Against Keeper, its a very resilient combo deck that brings in Trinisphere to shut down the eventuality of Keeper's counterspells.  As well as bringing in men to win the game if it doesn't find its combo quickly enough (and to give Keeper too many targets for Rack and Ruin).

So you all probably want to see a decklist.  I took Koen's build from here.  I tweaked it some and gave it a proper sideboard.  My choices are probably not all optimal yet, which is why I'm bringing it to the community to help improve it.

Krark-Clan Ironworks Combo

Mana
        4 Mishra's Workshop
        3 City of Brass
        2 Glimmervoid
        1 Ancient Tomb
        1 Tolarian Academy

Acceleration (free)
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Lotus Petal
        1 Mana Crypt
        1 Mana Vault
        1 Mox Emerald
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Sol Ring

Acceleration (Other)
        4 [card]Krark-Clan Ironworks[/card]
        4 Metalworker

Draw
        4 Skullclamp
        2 Chromatic Sphere
        1 Ancestral Recall
        1 Conjurer's Bauble
        1 Memory Jar
        1 Time Walk
        1 Timetwister
        1 Wheel of Fortune

Tutors
        4 Goblin Welder
        2 [card]Steelshaper's Gift[/card]
        1 Demonic Tutor
        1 Tinker

Clamp Fodder
        4 [card]Myr Retriever[/card]
        3 [card]Genesis Chamber[/card]
        2 Ornithopter
        1 Frogmite

The Kill
        1 Arcbound Ravager
        1 Triskelion

Sideboard
        3 Frogmite
        3 Myr Enforcer
        3 Trinisphere
        2 Tormod's Crypt
        2 Rack and Ruin
        1 Genesis Chamber
        1 Platinum Angel

The cards that are up in the air in terms of their necessity to the deck:
Demonic Tutor - It usually gets a combo piece but isn't very quick at doing it.
Conjurer's Bauble - Gives the deck recursion and a cantrip while synergizing with Metalworker and Goblin Welder.  Can be used to set up impossible wins (one involved an opponent's Glacial Chasm and him being decked).  I was drawing Steelshaper's Gift too much, especially with Metalworker.  I added this as an Artifact replacement.
The Kill - It's two cards.  One of them is semi useful when comboing, the other isn't.  The latter provides an answer to an opposing Disciple of the Vault, also to Platinum Angel game 1.  I think it may be the best choice, despite gaining a slot by running Disciple because of cards like Engineered Plague.  Because even with an Engineered Plague on Myr out, you can still win.  It also makes your kill instant speed, so you can avoid a StP on your Triskelion in response to your sacrificing Ravager.
Frogmite vs. Ornithopter - Frogmite is a mini beatstick.  Ornithopter is an awesome blocker (against Fish and Keeper).  I'm still very unsure about this.  I think the unconditional cost of Ornithopter (and its flying) makes it better, but the opening of sideboard slots by running a Frogmite or two is useful enough to merit it.

Would Windfall fit?  Would it work well with the deck's aims?

The Platinum Angel is my insurance against bad decks that may be able to beat me in some circumstances.

Is Mystical Tutor or Vampiric Tutor good enough to run?  I think it's relative speed makes it too weak in a deck as highly redundant as this one.

Crop Rotation is a major consideration, considering the extreme acceleration of Tolarian Academy in a deck that runs this many artifacts.

Oh, and by the way, if you missed the combo.  You get out a Myr Retriever (you need another in hand or in the graveyard), Krark-Clan Ironworks, Genesis Chamber, and maybe Skullclamp if you need it.  You sacrifice Myr Retriever to Krark-Clan Ironworks for two mana, returning the other Retriever to your hand.  You play him, netting a token.  Wash.  Rinse.  Repeat.

Lastly, your sideboarding strategy.  Against decks that can't disrupt your combo, you just play your game, maybe adding the last Genesis Chamber and Frogmites over the 'thopters.  If they can't disrupt you, they'd better hope to be faster.  I've got no idea what deck I'm talking about here, but if it exists, it's a virtual bye.

Against combo, you bring in your Trinispheres (you can combo through them with two Genesis Chambers, netting a mana for each cycle) and your Platinum Angel.  Tormod's Crypt if relevant.

Against decks with Null Rod (that aren't Fish), you bring in Rack and Ruin and your men for 2-3 Ironworks, 4 Metalworkers, 2 Ornithopter, Memory Jar, 1-2 Chromatic Sphere.

Against Fish you'll want Trinisphere's too.  Don't bring in the Platinum Angel (it's too slow and you should never have active Welders).  And also take out Ravager and Triskelion.  They don't have a quick way to kill you so you don't actually have to do more in comboing them out than play out a ton of men.  It shouldn't be too hard to sideboard with some practice with the deck.

If there are any matchups that look absolutely horrid, I will do my best to explain why they aren't that bad, or agree that they are horrid.

[Ric_Flair]

Just a question:  Why is something like Karvek's Torch or Myr Incubator not a better finisher?  That is the way the deck is developing among the Pros in Block right now.

[Kasuras]

That is exactly what I was thinking.

I already wrote an article about this matter, and so did JP.

Mine is here:
http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=17560&

JP's:
http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=7429

Both of them have a lot of interesting views on the card. But please: don't create a combo deck that doesn't kill until turn 4, can be easily disrupted and doesn't run any disruption itself. You will lose the first game versus probably all decks and just have to count on your luck to get trough game 2.

[The Atog Lord]

Right now, the most popular kill mechanism in block for this deck is the combination of Myr Incubator and Goblin Charbelcher. The Incubator alone is a kill mechanism, putting thirty or so tokens into play. The Belcher is also popular, because the block build plays with all artifact lands, and therefore the Belcher is lethal when all those lands are removed by Incubator. The Belcher can also deal with annoying small creatures before going off.

The problem is that right now, the KCI deck is too fragile to work even in block. I faced one copy of the deck in New Jersey, and it was too fragile to put up a good fight. The deck needs to resolve KCI with a healthy number of artifacts in play. Moreover, even if this does happen, an opponent with a Disciple of the Vault would spell doom for the deck, as going off would deal around seven damage to the KCI player.

In block, the deck is vulnerable to Oxidize and Disciple. While I have done no testing with the Type One version of the KCI deck, my suspicion would the that the two things that make the deck not amazing in block -- disruption and game-ending permanents -- would make the deck even less playable in Type One. Force of Will, Shaman, Null Rod, and Wasteland fill the role of Oxidize and Disciple.

Sure, Type One can power out an early KCI with Mishra's Workshop. But, then, if you only have one or two artifacts in play on the first turn anyways, what good is the KCI? I'm not saying that this deck won't work, but I am pointing out that there are certainly some challenges for it to overcome.

[policehq]

I'm having some trouble finding the disruption... Can someone help me out?

Oh, and by the way, if you missed the combo. You get out a Myr Retriever

1

(you need another in hand or in the graveyard),

2

Krark-Clan Ironworks,

3

Genesis Chamber,

4

and maybe Skullclamp if you need it.

And sometimes 5 cards required, all vulnerable to Oxidize, Null Rod, Artifact Mutation, Rack and Ruin, Force of Will, Mana Drain, and some to Duress.

Don't you think you need to be running Trinisphere maindeck to try and prevent someone from breaking a piece?

Really, even at 4, the combo is too inconsistent. There are plenty of two and three card combos that work very well and sometimes faster.

Barry

[Browser]

I'll post here again, just to stick up for my bud Steve.  The deck has the same "problem" as Turbo Land.  When you deck read it, it looks like it needs too many cards to win.

When in reality the deck is a harmonious design of intertwining combos, any 2 of which gain enormous tempo or card advantage and lead to a win very readily.

I've playtested against it with an even record with Animal Farm.  But since that's the only deck I'm focusing on right now, I'm really not qualified to comment on other matchups.

I will say in goldfishing, you shouldn't worry about the number of cards needed to pull of a "fully combo'd win".  When it starts gaining advantages, it usually only accelerates.

[waSP]

Interesting post Brian..  It's better than you say (as one of those games I got land screwed for 4 turns before screwing up my kill).

Kasuras:  You SHOULD go off turn 2-3, 4 would be a horrid draw.  This races most everything.  Other decks are faster, but don't have the same options (see disruption paragraph) against control or in the sideboard.

I'll address the acceleration, since there is a vast difference between this and the block build (which is hardly relevant when you consider the type of metagame it has to survive in).  You get all the broken artifact acceleration, which isn't TOO bad, but you also get Metalworker.  He is just huge.  Drop him turn one and turn 2 you pretty much explode.  (Metalworker gives you a pretty easy setup into the turn 2 kill).  You can't really compare speeds.  You have backup and contigency plans where the block doesn't.

@Ric_Flair
I suppose that Conjurer's Bauble is enough of a kill mechanism (infinite turns via Timetwister and Time Walk).  You could cut the two kill cards for something like Chain of Vapor and another draw spell (maybe Mystical Tutor).  It would bring the Artifact count down a bit (not so good).  That slot should probably go to a creature (Ornithopter or Frogmite).  I'll start testing that to see if it works.

Why is it resilient?  It runs so many ways to return lost combo pieces to play.  You have 4 Goblin Welders which, if resolved, negate Counterspells as a viable way to disrupt you.  It also has Myr Retriever, a highly overlooked card.  It brings back whatever you need.  More mana, a countered combo piece, more creatures to perpetuate your combo.

I guess I was hoping a little too much that people would just get it.  The deck runs off Skullclamp.  (cue knee jerk reaction mentioning Null Rod)  If you look at the deck as something that wants to abuse Skullclamp, you come to understand part of it.  There are loads of internal synergy in the deck that are hard to describe outside of game situations.

Getting all four into play at once is irrelevant because you just build into it.  You start out with a Skullclamp and a Genesis Chamber.  Eventually you find an Ironworks and get it into play.  Now you're near infinite.  Your opponents can't stop you if you get this far.  Let's say they counter the Ironworks.  You run 8 ways to get it back as well as 3 others.  So if they concentrate on stopping Ironworks, they have 12 cards to stop, as well as the Timetwister and Conjurer's Bauble.  They have to stop 14 spells to keep you from going infinite.  Keeper can't stop that many spells over the course of a game (especially not by turn 6) which is about when you can expect to go off through SEVERE countermagic.

Getting the combo out is all a part of your gameplan for winning.  You want to do what all good type one decks want to do.  Draw cards and play cards.  Your doing this is slightly different from other sorts of decks.  The best way to look at it is that you are an affinity deck with a slightly different set of cards.  These cards make you more explosive and powerful.  They don't look all that great on paper but in game they excel.  You're an aggro deck that turns into combo rather than fighting to do exactly 20 damage before your opponent stabilizes or wins outright.  There is some weakness to trying to just deal that 20 damage before your opponent can stop you.

@Kasuras - Let me reiterate, turn 4 is ridiculous!  Disruption is a misapplied term.  Disruption, the way you see it, is for seizing tempo.  So, if instead we look at disruption as a way to resolve threats, it's easy to see that there are 8 direct "disruption" cards, and a couple indirect disruption cards.  Also, your decks are different because they run neither Goblin Welder nor Metalworker.  Btw, this is an interesting view.  Thank Koen-

[Thug]

It would be a good thing if some people put some more time into this deck, 'cause I do believe it has some potential.

I agreed with WasP on the changed he made, only my sideboard looks a little bit different. (I like having Cranial Plate to turn into a beatdown deck). I actually also added 1 maindeck Plate to tutor for when you need it. And I see you came up with the bauble, very interesting, but I'm not if it should replace Ravager and Trike yet.

I also think the sideboard needs Oxidize more than it needs R&R. Getting 2R with a null rod in play can be a problem, and you most likely will have to destroy one of your own artifacts too.

The deck has zero disruption, but you really have to look past that. If you take a look at the high number of card drawers and recurring effects you should understand that is has a decent game versus control.

Fish off course can be tough, but with help of some sideboard cards it's doable.

And the comment about turn 4 is ridiculous. The deck goes off turn 2 most of the time if not disrupted, and otherwise turn 3 is almost always reachable. But this has been said before.

And this deck basicly is a one card combo: Skullclamp. With 3/4 Tutors, 4 copies and 8/9 ways to recur it. (and all these effect at a very low mana cost) You will see it, and you should be getting it into play. Once you have skullclamp and some mana (but that'll show up when you start drawing) you should be done in 1/2 turns.

The main weakness of the deck is the fragile mana-base, and fast combo (but who actually has the guts to play this?). And those are problems that need some time put into them.

But first some more people need to see this a a serious deck, and not a casual one. You have to see the perfect synergy between different card, running a non-artifact win conditions means all your ways of recurring it don't work and means your Metalworkers get worse, so why would you??

Koen

[Nehptis]

How does KCI combo compare to Storm Combo in terms of speed and consistency (use TPS as the Storm example)?

Some points to consider:
Storm is running disruption (FOW and Duress) while KCI has none.
Storm combo seems to be much faster than this KCI build even when faced with 0 disruption.
KCI seems to be vulnerable to similar disruption as Storm, i.e. Wastelands and Nullrod.
Storm builds have MD answers to both threats. Basic lands-->Wastelands and Chain/Hurkly's/Rebuild-->Nullrod

I like the idea, and it may have potential, but as a combo player you have to ask yourself why play a deck that seems to be slower and easier to disrupt than Storm?

[dicemanx]

And the comment about turn 4 is ridiculous. The deck goes off turn 2 most of the time if not disrupted, and otherwise turn 3 is almost always reachable. But this has been said before.

I'm genuinely curious how this deck can go off turn 2. Can we see some sample hands? I've been working on all manner of artifact combo decks lately, and I cannot get KCI to perform consistently. I would agree with the first poster that this is a turn 4 deck. Coupled with the fact that KCI decks are susceptible to nasty hate while lacking disruption of their own makes it a recipe for disaster.

[Thug]

I'm genuinely curious how this deck can go off turn 2. Can we see some sample hands? I've been working on all manner of artifact combo decks lately, and I cannot get KCI to perform consistently. I would agree with the first poster that this is a turn 4 deck. Coupled with the fact that KCI decks are susceptible to nasty hate while lacking disruption of their own makes it a recipe for disaster.

What about Shop, 5cc-Land, Worker, Gift/Clamp, Mox, Retriever, KCI. Just hands like that, but you don'T even need the worker. And often it has to be considered that if you do not win turn 2 you end your turn in such a position that nothing short of a Null Rod is gonna stop you from winning next turn.

In the first version of this deck I played cabal therapy for disruption, which is a pretty strong card in this deck, but it didn't make it. Now that the deck has shifted more towards artifacts I think the only viable disruption would be Tangle Wire, I'm currently testing some with them maindeck again (I had them before, but didn't really find them neccessairy) But they might just be the thing to make the fish and combe matchup a little better.

How does KCI combo compare to Storm Combo in terms of speed and consistency (use TPS as the Storm example)?

TPS is (IMO) the best deck in the format right now. I don't think this deck is better than TPS, nor am I claiming it. The only reason to run this over TPS would be a huge load of control in your meta. This deck also seems to be slightly better versus Prison, but this depends a lot on the prison deck. But In a mixed metagame I would rather play TPS than this right now.

This deck actually is probably faster than TPS, because TPS rarely wins turn two, more often it wins turn 3-4 but backep up with disruption. Both decks are extremely consistent.

---

Right now people are not really prepared for storm combo, because very few people play it (outside of Italy ). But once we will see more hate towards the deck (and I think we will) this deck could be the answer, while it has problems with Null Rod all the other hate aimed at TPS will barely touch this deck.

And even if this does not come trough, I still think it's worth putting some time into the deck, cause it's extremely fun to play, and plays with so much cards you woulnd't otherwise play with. Some people like to play for fun too (I don't, I rather play to win)

---

Some more on the main argument why people don't even try the deck:

Storm is running disruption (FOW and Duress) while KCI has none.

This deck is packed with threats, where Storm is pretty low on threats (which IMO is the biggest weakness of the deck, a well timed duress can ruin your game).

Versus control, duress + fow can force through the threats TPS want to force through most of the time. KCI will eventually get a clamp into play a start the decks engine. Both strategies seem pretty succesfull judging from my testing, but I would go as far as saying that KCI has a better matchup.

KCI is most defenitly better versus Tog, but people seem to have dropped that deck already.

Versus Prison, Duress + FoW can stop early disruption, and bounce wins games for TPS. But TPS has to rely a lot on their opening hand, since they won't get much time to dig early on. KCI can't stop Prison from doing it's thing, but It has a perfect answer to anything. Going first KCI can often make sure all of the lock parts of prison are pretty useless. Dropping chamber + thopter already makes Wire useless and makes Smokestack extremely slow. When a clamp comes into play Smokestack becomes something you don't even really mind seeing. Trinisphere is the biggest problem, especially when going second, because short of Shop + Worker there little you can do. But overall I would see these deck are pretty even here too, maybe a slight advantage for KCI.

TPS has a decent game versus Fish, and can easily play through some REB's + FoWs. The only thing that really seems to hurt the deck are early stifles on fetches. KCi Versus Fish you have to rely on your opponent not knowing your deck, if they mulligan into a Null Rod you lose, if they don't got a Null Rod there's very little they can do to stop you. Their only weapon at that point are the wastelands. After sideboard you can add beating instead of part of the combo, making it a much better matchup, also Oxidizes should be boarded in for Null Rods and possible Crucibles. TPS is clearly the better one before sideboarding while I would they are pretty even after.

The real advantage TPS has is versus other combo decks. But KCI can board a good number of cards that hurt the other deck a lot more than it hurts KCI (root maze for an example or even Trinisphere)

What I'm asking you is to try the deck out, not post facts based on theory, If you don't want to test it because you think it's crap, fine, but stop posting theories then. (Sorry for this, but It had to be said, it does not just count for this thread, but for a lot more)

Koen

[waSP]

I've been getting most of my kills on turn 3, so maybe we should discuss playing styles some time soon (I count Time Walk as using a turn).  I think turn 3 is perfectly acceptable though, especially if we consider adding in bounce.

With the idea of a cheap bounce spell for Null Rod.  What if we were to change Demonic Tutor for Mystical Tutor.  It would be a viable turn 1 play and could always find a Skullclamp for 1 more mana (although the loss of a card can be big).  I find that Demonic isn't good unless I have a bad hand.

I'm worried about Cranial Plating, as it is also susceptible to Null Rod.  I agree with you that it's gold against Keeper, but the real tough matchup for this deck is going to be Fish.

Did you not like Trinisphere in your testing?  I find it to be absolutely nuts against a lot of decks.  It might just have to find its way into the maindeck.  But that would make me want to turn Gilded Lotus .  Winning through Trinisphere is about as hard as winning in the first place.  The "tempo" it gives you is enough to justify you having to slow your game down a lot.  It would also free up some more sideboard space for more, useful sideboard cards.

I talked about disruption poorly above.  You have to think of disruption (in a combo deck) as the thing that makes your cards resolve.  It's not necessarily Duress or Mana Drain or Force of Will.  Disruption is different for decks with different goals.  This one wants to draw its deck with Skullclamp and eventually go "infinite."  The recursion cards do that as well as needs be.

I like oxidize over Rack and Ruin, but some deck are siding enough hate that you might have to hit two Null Rods in one shot because Fish has lots of counter.

I'm going to see if Trinisphere is going to fit main.  What do you think is best for cutting?  I was thinking maybe a Myr Retriever, a Steelshaper's Gift and maybe going up to 61.

[Thug]

Best (and most important) thing first:

The New (and improved) KCI

Mana
4 Mishra's Workshop
4 City of Brass
4 Glimmervoid
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Tolarian Academy

Acceleration (free)
1 Black Lotus
0 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring

Acceleration (Other)
2 Krark-Clan Ironworks
4 Metalworker

Draw
4 Skullclamp
0 Chromatic Sphere
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Memory Jar
0 Time Walk
1 Timetwister
1 Wheel of Fortune

Tutors
4 Goblin Welder
2 Steelshaper's Gift
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Tinker

Clamp Fodder
4 Myr Retriever
3 Genesis Chamber
2 Ornithopter
0 Frogmite

The Kill
1 Arcbound Ravager
0 Triskelion
2 Lightning Greaves - MVP

Disruption
4 Tangle Wire - MVP Runner-Up

62 cards!
---

What changed:

First of all, the deck has given up some speed for a better mana-base, slightly more threats and some disruption

The deck has more actual lands now, making Wastelands a lot less dangerous and mulligans much less needed. It takes up some spots that could have been more threats, but the deck still seems to have enough.

I noticed KCI being the most useless card in the deck untill you were ready to "go off". Having four of those cards doesn't have to be a bad thing, but I found something better: Lightning Greaves, more on that later.

How I first got to Greaves was that I felt that Triskelion was a little too costy, often making it a dead card. I really liked the single Ravager as it won some games and allows some neat tricks. Also having another option to sac artifacts too isn't a bad thing.

So I had to figure out what cards woiuld allow a kill in a situation with infinitve tokens, an infinitive huge ravager. Trike is probably the best optin, but I wanted something else. Greaves allows you to make a huge Thopter (or any other creature if you don't need a flyer) by saccing Ravager and attack with the creature since it gets haste from the greaves. This is a kill that will work 95%+ of the times, and the greaves seemed less dead than the Trike to me.
(with two greaves in the deck your opponent has to have two untapped flying blockers to survive another turns, and even if he does he will be forced to tap down all his permanents next turn, so the kill seems rather realiable, it does not deal with platinum angel though, but welder can most of the time)

But the greaves proved to be much more than a kill-card. It makes both Welders and Workers much much beter when you start drawing. Right now the main mana-engine of the deck are hasted Worker that tap for around 10 mana. Than you can sac/clamp 'em, Welder or Retrieve them back and repeat the progress. This allows you to use all that mana to draw cards with Clamps and makes comboing much easier.
The greaves also is an artifact, so you don't lose an artifact spot, and it's gets even better, you can search for it with a Gift! Greaves defenitly should be in any version of this deck since it improves the deck significantly.

Tangle Wire was dismissed by me at first, but I gave it a second change, and this time I actually changed my game-plan according to it, something I hadn't done before. Somehow this made the card look much better and more testing has showed it defenitly has place in the deck. This has very much permanents that you don't mind tapping to the wire (basicly any not welder/worker creature and every non-creature artifact). This often means the Wire, if play early on, acts as a double Time Walk. This combined with the fact that it powers up Worker and can be recurred by welder/retriever makes me think this card is better than an actual Time Walk, and therefore I play the 4th Wire over Time Walk.

Tangle Wire also improves your worst matchups (combo and fish). Against Fish you should focus on one thing: Cast wire a.s.a.p, this has won my many games, and seems a very succesfull strategy. The funny thing about Fish is that aside from the 3 Rods they run you have nothing to fear. If the fish player can't find a Null Rod you should win, this explains why siding in up to 4 oxidizes/justice's can be justified.

I'm still not settled on a sideboard but here some more info about it: Root Maze seems a no-brainer. Although most current combo-decks suffer less from it than others did before, it still slow them down a lot. Combined with a Wire this card can give you an amazing tempo boost.

A huge part of the sideboard should be devoted to artifact destruction. This is because in different matchups you really want different cards. Right now I went as far as having Oxidize, Teljad's Justice and Rack and Ruin in my sideboard. This is because you have to deal with Null Rod (oxidize is slightly better at that than Justice but both should be boarded in against Fish), Chalice for 0, 1 or 2 (you need diversity here but against most decks packing chalice Rack and Ruin is your best option).

Another card that has the potential to earn a spot in the sideboad 'cause Shaman is one of your worst enemies, combine this with the fact that decks playing shamans often also board in Rack and Ruins.

---

Changes I consider making to the maindeck:

I think right now I have too many lands, 1 could be cutted, but should it? I like having a stable mana-base. But the times that you run out of gas (which really doesn't happen often, but still) you have 3-5 lands in your hand.

I really would like to fit in the third Gift, but the deck already is 62 cards and going any higher is madness. But this desire was mainly from games before I added the Vampiric, which was one of my last additions, so maybe the Vampiric solves this problem.

I want a cheaps artifact that ends up in your 'yard fast, so that you can use your welders early on, and you have a target for early retrievers. Chromnatic Sphere is the best candidate, and adding one could allow me too cut a 5c-land, but I'm still not sure on this,

Thoughts?

---

Koen


EDIT:

@WaSP

Wire give about the same Tempo as Trinisphere, if not better. And it does not slow yourself down. Trini would improve the non-dragon Combo-matchup, but Wire is really good against any decks. I would definitly say you try Wire first before maindecking Trinisphere.

My first versions of the deck could count on going off turn 2 if not disrupted, but the deck has slowed down in the progress of perfectioning it. Right now turn 3 seems reachable most of the times. But often I don't go for the speady kills anymore, since it feels much safer to just drop Wire and wait a turn.

I like Demonic a lot, but if you want to cut it defenitly run Vampiric over Mystical, I think I would even run Enlightened over Mystical. Mystical fetches too little card, and even a single bounce spell would not justify it.

A Single bounce spell could be considered if you see a lot of Null Rods around. Chalice can be dodged with Tinker (yes I have won games with this  ). But I think I would earlier maindeck a Justice before a bounce spell, because the best bounce spell avaible is echoing truth and it costs as much as Justice.

Justice can also be used to kill clamped thopters/workers/ravager or be used on a useless mox (your opponents or even yours) just to dig for something you needed.

[waSP]

I really like cutting 1-2 Ironworks (I'm not sure the number in my build yet).  I hadn't thought of that yet.

The creature count is right at 11 I think.  Trinisphere isn't as much about the tempo as it is about beating your opponents counterspells.  It's not usually a problem (there are too many threats), but it also means I can go off unmolested.

I think I like Time Walk over Tangle Wire just because it gives you extra mana and time to use Skullclamps to find whatever is missing.  From a stratification standpoint, Lightning Greaves would be much worse than the single Time Walk (especially because its taking up its slot is already accounted for.

I also cut the Lotus Petal a few days ago, I'm glad that a lot of things in our builds are evolving similarly.

I'm sure that the Vampiric Tutor can be a Steelshaper's Gift.

Demonic Tutor has proved its usefulness in my more recent testing.

I often want the Chromatic Spheres to be a mana source, maybe the deck needs another permanent accelerator (Mirrodin Talisman maybe?).  I'm going to test that over one of the Sphere's.  I'm not sure which is optimal yet.  After sideboarding, cards to talisman usability. r/g = 9 - g/w = 5 - u/w = 5 - b/r = 6 - u/b = 5.  I think I'll test r/g for now.

This is the build I'll be using in testing now.

Mana
        4 Mishra's Workshop
        3 City of Brass
        3 Glimmervoid
        1 Ancient Tomb
        1 Tolarian Academy

Acceleration (free)
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Mana Crypt
        1 Mana Vault
        1 Mox Emerald
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Sol Ring

Acceleration (Slower)
        4 Metalworker
        2 Krark-Clan Ironworks
        1 Talisman of Dominance

Draw
        4 Skullclamp
        1 Chromatic Sphere
        1 Ancestral Recall
        1 Conjurer's Bauble
        1 Memory Jar
        1 Time Walk
        1 Timetwister
        1 Wheel of Fortune

Tutors
        4 Goblin Welder
        1 Steelshaper's Gift
        1 Tinker
        1 Demonic Tutor

Clamp Fodder
        4 Myr Retriever
        3 Genesis Chamber
        2 Ornithopter
        1 Frogmite

Random Cards (Disruption?)
        3 Trinisphere
        1 Echoing Truth

Sideboard
        3 Myr Enforcer
        2 Frogmite
        2 Oxidize
        2 Tel-Jilad Justice
        2 Tormod's Crypt
        1 Genesis Chamber
        1 Platinum Angel
        1 Rack and Ruin
        1 Trinisphere

I may bring in the 3rd Ironworks for the 3rd Trinisphere if it's necessary.

[Methuselahn]

maybe you should replace those genesis chambers with crucibles.  Then maybe take out some of the unneeded combo pieces for wastelands.  Maybe then you could upgrade some of your dudes to big fat dudes that attack.  

I know you didn't have malicious intent with this post but if you don't have anything productive to say, don't say anything at all.

Hyperion

[Thug]

@Methuselahn

maybe you should replace those genesis chambers with crucibles. Then maybe take out some of the unneeded combo pieces for wastelands. Maybe then you could upgrade some of your dudes to big fat dudes that attack.

Maybe you shouldn't post when you have nothing important to say and don't want to bother actually testing the deck.

---

@WaSP

The creature count is right at 11 I think.

11? I guess this doesn't include welders/workers nor the kill creatures??
I have had 17 creatures for a long time (4 retriever, 4 worker, 3 thopter, 1 ravager, 1 trike, 4 welder). But when adding Greaves I less often had to use creatures to make mana, and once you can use every creature got to draw card, and you have hasted welders that can turn any artifact into a 2-toughness creature for 4 more card you really don't need that much. I got 15 right now, but 14 might even be managable.

Trinisphere isn't as much about the tempo as it is about beating your opponents counterspells. It's not usually a problem (there are too many threats), but it also means I can go off unmolested.

But counterspells are the least threatening thing your opponent can come up with. Unless it's mono-blue there's no way a deck is even going to come close to countering enough spells to stop you. Trinisphere mainly shuts down FoW, where Tangle Wire shuts down all non-fow counterspells.

Often your opponent can just ignore the Trini and start playing 2cc counterspells for 3 mana. Wire is muh better at stopping non-fow counters and 4 FoW aint going to stop the deck. Wire is much better versus Fish and versus aggro decks also.

I think I like Time Walk over Tangle Wire just because it gives you extra mana and time to use Skullclamps to find whatever is missing. From a stratification standpoint, Lightning Greaves would be much worse than the single Time Walk (especially because its taking up its slot is already accounted for.

Time walk still costs two mana to cast, so it will only produce mana when you got more than 2. Tangle Wire also gives you more mana to Clamp 'em up since your opponent will most likely be tapped down for two turns.

I dont really get your statement about the Greaves being worse than Time Walk, care to explain?

I often want the Chromatic Spheres to be a mana source, maybe the deck needs another permanent accelerator (Mirrodin Talisman maybe?). I'm going to test that over one of the Sphere's. I'm not sure which is optimal yet. After sideboarding, cards to talisman usability. r/g = 9 - g/w = 5 - u/w = 5 - b/r = 6 - u/b = 5. I think I'll test r/g for now.

Talismans are cute, the question is whether they are better than aditional lands or not. Personally I really like the stability the extra lands provide.

Sideboard
3 Myr Enforcer
2 Frogmite
2 Oxidize
2 Tel-Jilad Justice
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Genesis Chamber
1 Platinum Angel
1 Rack and Ruin
1 Trinisphere

I dismissed the beatdown plan to make room for other cards, versus Fish its better to board in artifact hate than it is to board in creatures since they simply can stop the combo without a Rod.

Koen

[Methuselahn]

maybe you should replace those genesis chambers with crucibles. Then maybe take out some of the unneeded combo pieces for wastelands. Maybe then you could upgrade some of your dudes to big fat dudes that attack.

@Methuselahn
Maybe you shouldn't post when you have nothing important to say and don't want to bother actually testing the deck.

Actually, the limited testing that I did with wasp left me unimpressed.  When we tested vs large artifact aggro- it lost.  When we tested against Legend's Sui Black with Wretches, it lost.

With the advent of artifact decks on the rise, decks such as TPS and others that MD/SB mass bounce like Rebuild, Hurkll's, Chain of vapor, Echoing Truth, etc; I have a hard time seeing this deck being able to dodge hate once it would become more refined and mainstream.

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

I talked about disruption poorly above.  You have to think of disruption (in a combo deck) as the thing that makes your cards resolve.  It's not necessarily Duress or Mana Drain or Force of Will.  Disruption is different for decks with different goals.  This one wants to draw its deck with Skullclamp and eventually go "infinite."  The recursion cards do that as well as needs be.

Wrong.  Disruption is anything that "disrupts" your opponent's game plan.  Duress, fow, mana drain all do this.  Recurring a threat does not count as/replace disruption unless your opponent is the control plaver (nor does it do anything to null rod, which duress and force can stop).

So, this basically mean that against any "rod and win" decks (mainly this would be fish but R/G beats, etc could also do this), or against any faster combo deck, you have NO disruption at all, so they can simply drop the rod and win or just outrace you.  

The discussions seems to be focussing too much on beating control when fast combo or budget aggro/control or aggro are it's main problems.

Null rod= death, it's that simple.  Against fish, even if you board in 4 artifact disruption spells you are facing 4 rods (they would board the 4th rod) protected by 4 fows as well as daze/mis-d, w/e.  If all they have to do is drop a rod and protect the rod it seems like an auto-win for them game one, and a relatively easy one game 2.

Against faster combo decks, you need REAL disruption, not just anti-control disruption.  That means something like chalice, duress, fow, trini etc, but it has to be useful in almost all matchups.  (the wire list uses wire, which seems like a good choice)

Against fish, your best bet would be simply to go the fat man plan, however I am not sure about this as it would probably require many slots to board enough fat to pwn them.

Against storm combo the best bet probably is sp3re, although TPS runs enough bounce that they could probably deal, and dragon just owns you barring h8 like boarded tormod's and root maze (and they can still work around these if you don't kill them quickly enough).  Against belcher you= play sph3re and win, them= play belcher and win, so it depends on who is going first and on how fast the draws are.

And, yes this is all based on dreaded theory and not antual testing (I can't test every deck I see!!!!), so feel free to point out anything that you think is incorrect but please use logical observations and not just tell me to test the deck or that in testing it works (not to suggest that you would do this, but it is a pet peeve of mine and doesn't lead to productive discussions).

[Thug]

maybe you should replace those genesis chambers with crucibles. Then maybe take out some of the unneeded combo pieces for wastelands. Maybe then you could upgrade some of your dudes to big fat dudes that attack.

@Methuselahn
Maybe you shouldn't post when you have nothing important to say and don't want to bother actually testing the deck.

Actually, the limited testing that I did with wasp left me unimpressed.  When we tested vs large artifact aggro- it lost.  When we tested against Legend's Sui Black with Wretches, it lost.

With the advent of artifact decks on the rise, decks such as TPS and others that MD/SB mass bounce like Rebuild, Hurkll's, Chain of vapor, Echoing Truth, etc; I have a hard time seeing this deck being able to dodge hate once it would become more refined and mainstream.

Well than it wouldn't bother if you also posted the reasoning for your conclusion like you did right now, just a conclusion without anything doesn't add anything to the threat and actually just makes it worse.

I'm surprised you found the deck lacking against artifact aggro and I'm interested against what deck(s) you tested, I would like to see a list and maybe some more thought on the matches if it isn't too much trouble.

Suicide with Wreches I haven't tested (), discard is a very weak weapon against this deck, but combined with a wretch I can see what causes problems, I guess the deck also had Null Rods 'cause otherwise it still shouldn't be a problem. Maybe a tooled out suicide deck can be a problem, but than you have to ask the question how often you will meet such a deck at the top tables.

When testing against TPS I found that rebuild is one of their best weapons, and it might actually be a reason to add REB to the board, but then again, it's very good in TPS because they can draw-7 away all your cards, I don't see other decks doing this and I don't see many players play TPS.

So, this basically mean that against any "rod and win" decks (mainly this would be fish but R/G beats, etc could also do this), or against any faster combo deck, you have NO disruption at all, so they can simply drop the rod and win or just outrace you.

Fish will never ever outrace you, and R/G needs a very very aggresive hand, and you need a pretty bad hand, for it to outrace you.

These decks won't always have the Rod, and it they don't there little reason for you to lose the game, it really is that simple. Add to that, that Wire can stop them from dropping Null Rod and that you still can win games in which a Null Rod dropped and you really should see a positive ratio.

Only a little amount of decks play Null Rod and even they will only have it about 50% of the time within the first three turns. Null Rod is a slight problem, nothing more than that because the decks playing it are pretty weak against this deck, so if you can deal with Null Rod if it sees play you are looking good, but even it you can't always deal with it you still should be able to pull out the match (you simply don't have to win every game you play, just make sure to win 2 out of 3)

Against faster combo decks, you need REAL disruption, not just anti-control disruption. That means something like chalice, duress, fow, trini etc, but it has to be useful in almost all matchups. (the wire list uses wire, which seems like a good choice)

I already stated that fast-combo is probably the worst matchup, in testing I've won some games pre-board versus TPS, but it didn't happen all that often, maybe once in 3/4 times.

The sideboard has the room to include certain bombs versus these decks, and all are very cheap and can be used early on (rootmaze, chalice, REB). This makes the pre-sb games much better but overall you are still looking at an unfavorable matchup. So be it, you can't have a positive matchup against every deck.

Against fish, your best bet would be simply to go the fat man plan, however I am not sure about this as it would probably require many slots to board enough fat to pwn them.

No your best plan is too win if they don't have a Null Rod and to destroy it if they don't. Right now I even go up to 5 artifacts destuction spells against Fish. I feel pretty confident about the Fish-Matchup since it's one I've tested most.

And, yes this is all based on dreaded theory and not antual testing (I can't test every deck I see!!!!), so feel free to point out anything that you think is incorrect but please use logical observations and not just tell me to test the deck or that in testing it works (not to suggest that you would do this, but it is a pet peeve of mine and doesn't lead to productive discussions).

I understand that you can't test every deck, but you have to admit this decks does not look like any other accomplished deck. This decks is based around cards that see very very little play in other decks, therefore I think it's very hard to base anything on theorie simply because people are so unfamilair with the cards and the interactions.

This makes discussing the deck harder, but I just hope that some people will pick up the deck and help make it better, but I don't blame anyone who doesn't want to infest time into it. All I really can say is that I see some potential in the deck, and the fact that I have improved previous versions of my deck soo much already makes me believe that if more people put time into the deck it can be improved more. It can't demand people to test the deck, I can just ask if they will test it and hope they will.

---

I have made some minor updates to my list:

-1 Lightning Greaves (one is enough with all the tutors)
-1 Ornithopter (it is just slightly worse than the 3rd chamber, and one had to go)
+1 TJ Justice (it's it never dead, and can be quite useful at killing clamped workers/thopter, even when it just cycles on your opponents mox is pretty good because of the scrying)

This still leaves 61 cards, and I would eventually like to see another Justice maindeck, but I don't know what else to cut.

Koen

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

...at the top tables.

So, this basically mean that against any "rod and win" decks (mainly this would be fish but R/G beats, etc could also do this), or against any faster combo deck, you have NO disruption at all, so they can simply drop the rod and win or just outrace you.

Fish will never ever outrace you, and R/G needs a very very aggresive hand, and you need a pretty bad hand, for it to outrace you.

These decks won't always have the Rod, and it they don't there little reason for you to lose the game, it really is that simple. Add to that, that Wire can stop them from dropping Null Rod and that you still can win games in which a Null Rod dropped and you really should see a positive ratio.

Only a little amount of decks play Null Rod and even they will only have it about 50% of the time within the first three turns. Null Rod is a slight problem, nothing more than that because the decks playing it are pretty weak against this deck, so if you can deal with Null Rod if it sees play you are looking good, but even it you can't always deal with it you still should be able to pull out the match (you simply don't have to win every game you play, just make sure to win 2 out of 3)

Against fish, your best bet would be simply to go the fat man plan, however I am not sure about this as it would probably require many slots to board enough fat to pwn them.

No your best plan is too win if they don't have a Null Rod and to destroy it if they don't. Right now I even go up to 5 artifacts destuction spells against Fish. I feel pretty confident about the Fish-Matchup since it's one I've tested most.

You don't just need to worry about the top tables, you need to worry about even scrubby aggro decks that you will likely face in the first part of any large tournement, sui included.

I think you misuderstood my sentance.  I combined two things into one sentance: Faster combo would outrace you while  Fish or R/G, etc, can have basically an auto win by dropping rod then killing you; they don't have to try to race.  Any of these decks that are well prepared for the meta will be running at least 3 rods, you can't gamble on them not playing it.  Also it would be quite easy to mulligan into rod games 2 and 3 once they know your deck.  What is harder for a deck to do: combo out, or resolve a 2cc artifact and protect it for a few turns?  Personally, I think it would be easy for fish to resolve and protect a rod against you while comboin out on fish could be difficult (not that not only do they have daze and fow to stop you from resolving pieces, but a well-timed stifle could stop you from comboing out as well)  

5 artifact destruction spells are hard pressed to take care of 4 rods back by 4 fows as well as 1-2 daze/mis-ds when your only disruption is wire which does nothing against them.  Also, barring an explosive first turn draw, wire slows you down a bit as well, and all they really have to do is resolve a rod to win.  The thing is, against more resilient storm combo decks rod simply slows them down, while against you rod means your combo doesn't work.

Edit: Oh and I still think going over 60 cards is a very bad idea for any combo deck other than battle of wits.

[Brutha]

I can't think of many situations in which Time Walk can't be at less cycle. So why you don't play this as 61th card?
I would also think about Trinket Mage in the Steelshaper's Gift Slot. Both get the clamp but the mage gives you a clamp able creature. And the Trinket Mage can search a Lotus/Ornithopter if you have already clamps.

Two other cards to consider: Junk Diver (can be the 5th Myr Retriever) and Phyrexian Altar (if you do not sack many noncreature artifacts to KCI it could be better because it is 1 cheacher)

[JesseRiver]

In my area I am known to play with bad type two cards, so this seems like the perfect deck for me.  In the limited testing I have had, this deck simply gains card advantage until it explodes.  And theres nothing you can do about it. :shock:  

  In the few games I have played welders sometimes clogged up my hand since idealy this deck wants to play a first turn workshop.  I am currently playing with one greaves as well.  Gift is better than trinket mage because it costs two less.

   I think this deck has alot of potential and I may take it to a local tourny.

[Thug]

@ Gandalf

You don't just need to worry about the top tables, you need to worry about even scrubby aggro decks that you will likely face in the first part of any large tournement, sui included.

You just need to fight yourself throught the first two rounds, preparing for those decks and weakening your matchup against the better decks could lead to more consistent results, but I rather have a better shot at winning the whole thing. This might be a personal aim, but it has worked most of the time for me.

Personally, I think it would be easy for fish to resolve and protect a rod against you while comboin out on fish could be difficult (not that not only do they have daze and fow to stop you from resolving pieces, but a well-timed stifle could stop you from comboing out as well).

I actually put the deck away for a while because I thought Fish was such a horrid matchup and I hadn't really tested it yet. But it's really not all that bad. Fish countermagic really means nothing, daze often is more of an advantage to you since they need to use it very early for it to be effective and they lose a lot of tempo with it. If you're playing clamps into dazes you're playing the deck wrong, avoiding daze with a 1cc artifact is very easy. If they counter non-skullclamp things it shoudn't matter, you have enough ways to find new targets for the clamp.

And 4 FoW aint gonna stop 4 clamps, 2 gift, 2 tutors, 4 welders and 4 retrievers. So any game that doesn't have a Null Rod is like an auto-win, so there really is no need to win any gime involving a Null Rod. You'll be fine if you can deal with it most of the time after sideboarding.

when your only disruption is wire which does nothing against them.

A turn 2 wire can easily keep them locked down for two turns, that makes it quite hard to drop a Null Rod right? When a welder hits to bring back a Wire, or you find another Wire they are screwed. Tangle Wire does a lot against FIsh, much more than a Duress, Drain or FoW ever will. Fish is all about tempo, and when you ruin theirs it has a huge impact on the game.

Edit: Oh and I still think going over 60 cards is a very bad idea for any combo deck other than battle of wits.

It sure it, although this deck does not really rely on broken restricted cards it's still better to stick to 60 cards. But I hate being forced down to 60 to early in development, it forces you to make wrong decisions, it's better to test with a 61/62 card deck and find out which cards you can miss IMO.

@Brutha

Time Walk is a decent cycler, but it's not a automatic inclusion in every deck that has acces to blue mana. It makes it harder to decide whether to keep a hand or not, and it lowers the percentage of artifacts in the deck.

Also there are situations in which you really dont want to cycle it (smokestacks, wastelands, etc.) If the deck ever wnet down to 59 card Time Walk would be a card to look at, but right now I think there are better options.

I would also think about Trinket Mage in the Steelshaper's Gift Slot. Both get the clamp but the mage gives you a clamp able creature. And the Trinket Mage can search a Lotus/Ornithopter if you have already clamps.

2U is very much to bring up, and it doesn't even get a Clamp into play. at the cost of 2X you shold be casting draw-sevens, or tinker. If you compare a 2/2 body to this you'll see why it isn't played. Gift easy allows you to play a clamp first turn, and can easily be cast before tapping a Shop/Worker for mana. On top of that it fetches the single greaves, if it wouldn't you would need at least 2 greaves.

@ JesseRiver

Glad to hear you like the deck, if you take the deck to a tournament I would like to hear about, also let me know about changes you'd like to make to the deck if you don't mind.

In the few games I have played welders sometimes clogged up my hand since idealy this deck wants to play a first turn workshop.

Somtimes you have to ignore the powerfull effect of welder, and just use it as a 1/1 body to clamp. This depends a lot on your opponents deck. As long as you have enough options to search for or draw a clamp those Welders should have their uses.

Koen

[JesseRiver]

This is my current build.

Land//13

4- Mishra's workshop
4- Glimmervoid
3- City of Brass
1- Ancient tomb
1- Tolarion Academy

Fast Mana//9

7- SoLoMoxen
1- Mana Crypt
1- Mana Vault

Draw//8

4- Skullclamp
1- Timetwister
1- Wheel of fortune
1- Ancestral Recall
1- Memory jar

Slow Mana//7

4- Metalworker
3- Krark-Clan Ironworks

Tutors//5

2- Steelshaper's Gift
1- Vampiric Tutor
1- Demonic Tutor
1- Tinker

Clamp fodder//9

4- Myr Retriver
3- Genesis Chamber
2- Ornithopter

Disruption//7

2- Tangle Wire
1- Tel- Jilad Justice
4- Goblin Welder

Win//3

1- Lightning Greaves
1- Arcbound Ravager
1- Triskelion

  I would like to up the tangle wire count but I don't know what to cut.  Could we fit a diciple into the mix?  I think the deck has alot of potential but I don't think this is the optimal build just yet.  If anyone is interested in seeing a mono-brown version of this deck pm me.

[Snoop]

Ok, I don't mean to offend anyone, but doesn't this deck seem like it would be EXTREMELY vicious if we cut the 3 ironworks and replaced them with 3 more Ravagers. I know the goal was to combo ASAP, but it seems like even without the Ironworks you should have enough card advantage (Steelshapers Gift / Skullclamp) and recursion (Myr Retriever) to overwhelm your opponent even without the excessive mana the ironworks gives. Although I must say I think at least one Cranial Plating might be worth it considering you are playing steelshapers gift. Think about it Cranial Plating (if equipped early) can not only get around Null Rod but produces insanely savage beats. I tried to doubt the power of this card but honestly playing combo against Affinity in Type 1, the one card I hated to see was Plating because it single handedly can produce the same effect Hatred once did without costing the life points to it's controller. All I'm saying is it seems that we're trying to "force" together a combo deck that would kill quickly and more reliably as an aggro-combo deck then as a pure combo deck.

[Thug]

Ok, I don't mean to offend anyone, but doesn't this deck seem like it would be EXTREMELY vicious if we cut the 3 ironworks and replaced them with 3 more Ravagers. I know the goal was to combo ASAP, but it seems like even without the Ironworks you should have enough card advantage (Steelshapers Gift / Skullclamp) and recursion (Myr Retriever) to overwhelm your opponent even without the excessive mana the ironworks gives. Although I must say I think at least one Cranial Plating might be worth it considering you are playing steelshapers gift. Think about it Cranial Plating (if equipped early) can not only get around Null Rod but produces insanely savage beats. I tried to doubt the power of this card but honestly playing combo against Affinity in Type 1, the one card I hated to see was Plating because it single handedly can produce the same effect Hatred once did without costing the life points to it's controller. All I'm saying is it seems that we're trying to "force" together a combo deck that would kill quickly and more reliably as an aggro-combo deck then as a pure combo deck.

The goal really isn't combo out a.s.a.p, the goal is to combo out before your opponent either takes control of the game of threatens to kill you.

KCI isn't their for card advantage, it's simply there because it is a vital piece for infinitive tokens, and it has clear synergy with the rest of the deck. I do agree however that it can be a wasted slot versus control, and this has led me to cut the number down to 2, and to 1 recently. KCI is rarely needed to get the sequence started, since Greaves + Worker is much better at that.

I actually went up to 2 ravagers since I was looking for another creature, and I was getting a little short on sacrificing effects (by cutting down the KCI's). Ravagers sometime show up in your first seven with a combination of retriever/chamber which can lead to aggresive hands, but I don't value the beatdown function of ravager very high. It's aminly in the deck for being an excellent clamp target that also allows you to sac clamped thopter/workers, or retrievers that won't die.

I had a single plate maindeck for a while, as mentioned, but It did too little. I also considered them as a sideboard plan, but again they didn't prove themselves. Attacking with plated creatures is pretty weak when your giving your opponent blockers through Chamber. And the deck has too little flyers to rely on having one avaible. I've seen plated creatures get blocked too often.

Right now, as the deck stands, there's little room for a beatdown part, and there's really only one card that can be dead from time to time (aside from mana-sources) and thats the single KCI. With cards like wire you often tap down your creatures, and this really doesn't work if your trying to be the beatdown deck, making Wire a poor card in such a deck, where it is absolutely amazing in this deck.

If you want an aggro-combo deck you're better of staying mono-brown which allows for better beatdown. Good examples for this can be found in the modular thread created by Mrieff, or the Crushing Chamber thread by Purple Hat.

-------

Recent changes:

-1 KCI
-1 Justice (I was trying 2 maindeck)
-1 Genesis Chamber (having a Chamber without a creature isn't gonna work)

+1 Chromatic Sphere
+1 Ravager
+1 Gift (the single greaves became a vital piece, and having more tutors for Clamp never hurts)
-------

Koen