[Discussion-Strategy Issues] Talking Dragon

[Kerz]

Dragon has been steadily being talked about a bit more for awhile, and its time for an official thread about general Dragon topics in the Type One forum.

A few things to consider:

Why is Dragon continuing to stand on the sidelines, rather than winning tournaments? The era of graveyard hate has passed, and Fish is down to 0-1 maindeck stifle. The amount of cards that read "you have no permanents" are at an all time low: also, Xantid Swarm exists.

What is the best secondary kill condition? This is another huge topic in the route of optimizing Dragon. The main options can include Caller of the Claw, Scrivener, Sliver Queen, Ambassador (number 2), and Eternal Witness. What are the merits of each?

Discard Outlets. Mainly, the number of Compulsions. With the amount of "bad" cards in the deck (Dragon, Squee), you definitely need a decent amount, but how many is optimal? Are there any discard outlets left unexplored?

What about Maindeck Removal? Is Deed needed?  Or.. Control hate? A mixture of Duress, Force of Will, and Xantid Swarm is the norm, but what numbers of each?

The last aspect is Tutoring/Search. Demonic/Vampiric and Lim Dul's Vaut being the cards most often used, with Cunning Wish seeing a little play. Should the tutors even be played (are Vaults just better)? How many Lim Dul's is optimal?

Aaron Kerzner

[Hi-Val]

Dragon's biggest problem is the people playing it. There's something like less than zero hate cards used against Dragon right now and it's an incredibly consistent deck.

I played it at two of the Origins tournaments and I was astounded at how many times I was playing and had one of those "Oh shit, I can win right now" moments. Knowing what to Intuition for, when to sit back, etc. is all crucial to the deck. Remembering all the consistencies and minicombos take time as well. One that comes to mind is casting Xantid, letting it get countered and then just reanimating it again.

I like Sliver Queen as a secondary kill because it pitches to FOW and can win in response to Hulk. Splashing for Shivan whatever to do instakills isn't worthwhile, especially when landhate is so prevalent and Sundering Titan is the #1 reason why Dragon doesn't win.

[Methuselahn]

Why or why not Memnarch as a secondary win condition?

Also, does dragon face more hate in a 4cc meta now than it used to in a more Tog-ish meta?

[Kowal]

Memnarch would be horrible in dragon.  Why would you steal permanents when you could just win instead?

Keeper runs plow, and Tog ran a bunch of Coffin Purge.  Coffin Purge is a lot scarier because it hits Squee too.  Both of these matchups aren't actually that difficult for a competent dragon player though.  Blood Moons and Back to Basics and Sundering Titan are much more horrifying.

My bid for best kill condition is Eternal Witness.  Having your whole deck in hand while you kill them is nice, and the witness actually does stuff on its own.

[TheFram]

@ Methuselahn
Memnarch has very little secondary utility.
Sliver Queen pitches to Force and beats down.
Caller of the Claw avoids Damping Matrix and Root Maze issues (used to be more relevant in the Oshowa era), and is legitimately hard-castable.
Laquatas 2 is hardcastable and pitches to force like Laquatas 1.
Memnarch does not avoid Root Maze or Damping Matrix, pitch to FoW, and doesn't beat down like the Sliver Queen. Memnarch may also  give you even more Null Rod issues than you already have (this wont happen often, but why not play something equivalent that avoids rod).

@ Hi-Val
I agree completely. Dragon, though a slower combo deck, has an immense decision tree and can be somewhat difficult to play against hate. I've seen many people lose games with dragon that they could have won if they had played more carefully and remembered these mini-combos of which you speak.

@ Kerz

Why is Dragon continuing to stand on the sidelines, rather than winning tournaments? The era of graveyard hate has passed, and Fish is down to 0-1 maindeck stifle. The amount of cards that read "you have no permanents" are at an all time low: also, Xantid Swarm exists.

I don't know that I agree entirely. Plow is definitely on an upswing, and Cunning Wish is ever present. Additionally, there is the splash damage on all these Null Rods running around and, if I'm not mistaken, I've definitely seen an upswing in Ground Seal and BeB for Welder decks recently. Post board, nearly everyone has cards that can hurt dragon immensely.

That said, Xantid is the shit, and I think more people should be playing Dragon.

-Avi

[wuaffiliate]

Dragon doesn't make good apperances because terrible player's with little experience with the deck pilot it. When it is played, it's a terrible list with no swarms, or no vaults, and so on. If people took the deck seriously, it would be played much more.

The best secondary kill condition is not having to run one. Just draw the game if need be. I dont think the deck needs a secondary win condition maindeck, who the hell runs maindeck cursed totems and damping matrix?

I find 3 compulsion to be a good number, i get it just about every game, but not always in multiples, which i like.

I'm a fan of the 4 Swarm, 4 Force school. Swarm just makes all reactive spells useless, it's exactly what the deck needs, a really quick city of solitude that you can reanimate back into play. I dont think deeds is needed maindeck, not many decks run maindeck permanent dragon hate.

I found 2 Vaults and 1 Vampiric to be very solid, vault was just better than demonic, if it resolves it will just win the game in short order. It sets up your draw engine, gets your kill conditions, gets your disruption, so good.

[Shock Wave]

Dragon doesn't make good apperances because terrible player's with little experience with the deck pilot it. When it is played, it's a terrible list with no swarms, or no vaults, and so on. If people took the deck seriously, it would be played much more.

The best secondary kill condition is not having to run one. Just draw the game if need be. I dont think the deck needs a secondary win condition maindeck, who the hell runs maindeck cursed totems and damping matrix?

I find 3 compulsion to be a good number, i get it just about every game, but not always in multiples, which i like.

I'm a fan of the 4 Swarm, 4 Force school. Swarm just makes all reactive spells useless, it's exactly what the deck needs, a really quick city of solitude that you can reanimate back into play. I dont think deeds is needed maindeck, not many decks run maindeck permanent dragon hate.

I found 2 Vaults and 1 Vampiric to be very solid, vault was just better than demonic, if it resolves it will just win the game in short order. It sets up your draw engine, gets your kill conditions, gets your disruption, so good.

I'm always going to be a big Dragon fan, but the fact is that it just isn't good enough right now. Good luck winning 4cc matches at Gencon or winning through turn 1 Trinisphere or Crucible. If you want to risk losing a match to the die roll, then feel free to play Dragon.

Don't get me wrong, it still wins random games, but it's not the powerhouse it used to be, and there are better choices (Belcher, TPS, 4cc, TMS, etc.)

[bebe]

Deed is no longer needed in Dragon as we have Engineered Explosives which should be main decked ( at least one copy).

I'm still fond of the Queen as a secondary kill condition but Eternal Witness does seem appealing now. It is always a useful card. I think logically it might be the better choice.

Dragon is not difficult to play. Why do people keep saying this? Other than understanding how the cards interact, when to use instant animate effects, when to correcdtly stifle, etc., what is so difficult about playing it? I played it because it was so easy to pick up and did not give me a headache trying to decide what was the correct play ( many combo decks are much harder to master - Tendril decks and Turboland as examples).

Swarms are my choice as well for protection and have never let me down. Dragon is still doing well in the Great White North but it is played a lot here by competent players. But as Richard points out, if Workshop decks are everywhere in your meta, you will need a lot of luck to win - I lack those mizing skills.

[Smmenen]

I think Dragon's problem is the heavy Wastelands in the format.  Wasteland can really ruin Dragon's day - and when every deck is running 4 plus Crucibles, that can get tiresome.

[dicemanx]

Dragon is caught between a rock and a hard place - it has lots of instant speed hate to contend with (played in decks like 4CC, Fish etc), and at the other end of the spectrum it has to deal with permanent-based "hate" (Crucible/Trinisphere-packing decks). On top of it all, nearly every deck runs a full complement of Wastelands. Bah. It's still probably the combo deck of choice, but that's not saying much.

[Eastman]

Dragon's greatest weakness in the format has always been Keeper. Keeper is more popular now then it has been since Dragon came together.

[FireFall26]

I think SBING sundering titan can really help with the 4 cc problem.  Dragon can focus on drawing with the bazaar engine/protect with xantid swarm, and wait to animate the titan.  The titan just toally wrecks 4 cc whether it is a 1/1, or a 7/10.

[dicemanx]

Dragon is not difficult to play. Why do people keep saying this? Other than understanding how the cards interact, when to use instant animate effects, when to correcdtly stifle, etc., what is so difficult about playing it?

Dragon is certainly the easiest combo deck to play, but it does require some sublety and patience. The tutoring effects (Intuition and Lim Dul's Vault) also require much thought and calculation. Nevertheless, I think the most difficult aspect of Dragon is building it properly in the first place - this has got to be the most frequently misbuilt archetype ever, because the amount of possible card choices is astounding.

I'm not even sure what the best build is right now myself, which is why I'm eschewing Dragon in favor of HYPER-MUD for Gencon .

What is the best secondary kill condition? This is another huge topic in the route of optimizing Dragon. The main options can include Caller of the Claw, Scrivener, Sliver Queen, Ambassador (number 2), and Eternal Witness.

There are only two options for MD kills: Ambassador (best) and Sliver Queen. A secondary win condition is only necessary if you don't run MD Xantids just so you have something else to target with your Animates. MD Gaea's Blessings are NOT a concern, so why bother wasting a slot for kill #2? Dragon slots are incredibly precious.  

Caller of the Claw and Scrivener are pretty terrible by comparison, and Eternal Witness is not too far behind. I only suggested Witness more for the shock factor and the fact that it allows you to cast your spells an infinite number of times, which is very cool. Caller is inferior to the Queen in every way except when facing two cards: Root Maze and Damping Matrix. However, these hate cards are virtually non-existent in today's meta. And Scrivener, aside from the FoW issue, is worse than Witness because you have to run the weak Cunning Wish for your kill which automatically wastes a slot. See "incredibly precious" above.

[rvs]

I'll politefully disagree with you Peter. Cunning Wish is fine as a win condition in my opinion, since it's so versatile as well.

I'll agree (wow!) with Smmenen (double wow!) that Dragon is a rather poor choice in the metagame right now.

[dicemanx]

I'll politefully disagree with you Peter. Cunning Wish is fine as a win condition in my opinion, since it's so versatile as well.

Multiple Cunning Wishes in the MD might be doable, but if Dragon runs only one plus the Scrivener, then that Wish loses all flexibility because it must fetch Stroke and nothing else. So the ideal set-up for Scrivener might be 1 Scriv/2-3 Wish, but at a price: what does one cut for the added flexibility?

Dragon simply looks unappealing right now...

[DavidHernandez]

@DicemanX:
Cunning Wish could target Volcanic Geyser as an alternate win condition, however the tone of the thread is that red doesn't get splashed in Dragon. This brings me to the question: "What is considered the most current Dragon build"?

--Dave

[Bulls on Parade]

I'm hesitant to post my list even though a request for one has been issued- but I've been testing a few ideas I had, and this is what I've found:

Instead of another creature for my secondary kill condition (formerly Sliver Queen), I'm running an Entomb. Essentially this cuts down the number of pitchable blue spells by two since Laquatus can no longer be used for a Force, but 13 has been working out for me.

Xantids went back to SB, in favor of 3 Duress maindeck. I side Xantids in more than half the time in this metagame, but that doesn't mean I want them maindeck over Duress. Typically I side the Duresses out 1 for 1 with the Xantids, but game 1 landing a first turn Duress is so critical against a lot more decks than blue based control (a la Xantid) that I've found it to be worthwhile.

Sundering Titan SB pretty much lives up to the hype, while Eternal Witness is a little worse than Scrivener which is pretty bad.

I also tested Cunning Wish, and while I liked it a lot I'm not sure if it's the optimal direction to take the deck.

Here's my list:

4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
2 Swamp
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Black Lotus

3 Duress
4 Force of Will

4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Squee, Goblin Nabob
2 Compulsion
4 Worldgorger Dragon
1 Ambassador Laquatus
1 Entomb
4 Intuition
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
2 Lim-Dul’s Vault
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Animate Dead
3 Necromancy

SB: 3 Xantid Swarm
SB: 3 Verdant Force
SB: 2 Sundering Titan
SB: 2 Pernicious Deed
SB: 1 Deep Analysis
SB: 1 Coffin Purge
SB: 3 Crucible of Teh W0RLD!1!

Yeah, the last 3 slots are actually Chalice, which are filler until I find something worthwhile, although they've been Chalices for months and months.

[Dante]

@ Bulls - at high-level events like Gencon, you will get crushed by faster control decks like belcher and death long unless you have null rod and chalice in the side.  Also, you need 4 chalice - chalice for 1 makes 4cc go poop.

Diceman and Shockwave are going to write an update to the primer.  I finished 9th in the main even with that build.

Bill

[Purple Hat]

I'm probably missing something but doesn't chalice for 1 do nothing against 4cc once you animate the Dragon?  It leaves play, comes back with no counters on it and they swords the Dragon.

I guess it stops Brainstorm and Ancestral but that seems like a very small thing if I'm gonna spend 4 sideboard slots on it.

[Kowal]

It's still strong, because generally your priority against keeper is to animate a Verdant Force or Sundering Titan instead, leaving Plow still cut off.

[dicemanx]

As Kowal mentioned, Chalice is part of the large-man plan vs Fish and 4CC, and it also doubles as part of a 1-2 combination of viscious SB cards against the quicker combo decks (Belcher and Tendrils variants).

I'll post the full build sometime later along with a pseudo-report (I was iron-manning it and played in the first T1 five events in a span of three days ).  I managed three second place finishes and barely missed out on the top 8 at worlds (with a record of 5-1-2) along with two other Dragon players (Dante at 6-2, and Dan Rosu at 6-2).

[Dante]

Kowal hit it on the head - vs 4cc the primary animate target is Titan.  Most people are siding in plows or BeBs or stifle, possibly 1 disenchant.  It will shut off brainstorm, ancestral, and their 1cc removal.  Without ancestral and brainstorm to dig, just relying on Scrying won't be fast enough.  Sometimes the 4cc player will side in Fire/Ice or something crappy to stop your Xantids that you just sided out for Chalices and large men, which is even better.  Most 4cc builds only have 1 monkey as well.  I played against 3 4cc decks in the opening 3 rounds of the main event and it wasn't close in any of the sideboarded games, mostly due to a Chalice for 1 resolving and them scratching their heads, then figuring it out when their brainstorm gets chaliced and they realize they're sitting on useless plows, stifles, blasts, etc and scrambling.

@ Purple Hat - it's not just 4cc for the Chalice - Unless you have Null Rod AND Chalice (and 3 and 4 respectively), you really have little game against the faster combo decks like Tendrils and Belcher since they can both punch through FoW with Duress.  Based on the earlier tournaments, we knew both these decks would be played by good players and even if there were only a couple of those decks, they would be at/near the top tables all day and we'd need to go through them.