MD Energy Flux replacing a Null Rod for Workshop heavy metas

[Zelyon]

The time has come that Workshop based decks are probably the deadliest most ruthless decks in type 1. They pack many many bombs all of which are fully capable of winning the game primarily by themselves and take up atleast a few slots at every top 8 list. And Null Rod no longer suffices. It and does nothing against most of Workshops worst threats (Crucible, Trinisphere, Sphere, artifact creatures etc.) and is now easily played around. Energy Flux serves a similar function in that it denies them access to their mana but also has the added bonus of being a nice surprise that allows you to ignore their Chalice for 2 and combined with 5 Wasteland easily denies them the ability to keep more than one artifact in play at any time in the early to mid game. And the additional mana cost isn’t a factor under Trinisphere. A resolved Energy Flux means that you probably won, Null Rod usually does little more than slow them down.

Obviously, there are some matchups where Energy Flux is significantly worse. Tendrils based combo decks that can win over the span of the same turn aren’t fazed by Energy Flux while Null Rod decimates them. And the fact that Energy Flux comes out a turn later doesn’t help it’s case. But in metas where these decks aren’t too common or easily hated out, this probably isn’t a very significant factor. There are also many insignificant decks that no longer see much play such as Mask against which Energy Flux is much worse.

Against decks such as 4c control, Null Rod is better simply because of the lower casting cost. But the fact that Energy Flux forces them to sac their moxen is a large boon since disenchanting the Null Rod to reactivate the moxen seems to be the method of choice in dealing with it for 4c Control. But the single use that 4c control gets out of it’s moxen probably negates this. Energy Flux also helps in being a pitchable blue card and an additional way to pump Dryad in fish variants that choose to use it.

So what I am recommending is 2/2 configuration of Null Rod/Energy Flux (the 4th replacing the Gorilla Shaman) for fish in a meta where Workshop decks are common place. It’s what I’m currently trying.

There are probably a few other factors or pros/cons that I forgot to mention or simply hadn’t noticed yet. What do you think? Could this be the answer that Fish is looking for in order to have a chance against Workshop decks? It seems very viable now more than ever that Fish’s dominance have forced many decks to reduce their reliance on artifacts with activation costs in favor of those that don’t.

[Didor]

Maybe a better answer for a workshop - filled metagame would be to splash green for oxidize...
As many have said before, Fish is a metagame deck, and has to adapt to it. Just swapping two cards won't be enough; the whole deck needs to be reshaped.

[Outlaw]

My one question would be, is 3 mana slightly hard to cast for fish?  2 mana seems much more doable, but it does seem to work in fish (the flux that is).  Maybe perhaps a 2 nullrod / 1 energy flux?  I am definitely interested in seeing how it does in a matchup, but getting to 3 mana seems the hard part (workshop based decks can get the lock out very quick, if were talking about stax or something similar).


=-Outlaw-=
Quick on the Draw

[effang]

i think MD flux is a poor choice. often times, workshop only needs one turn to go crazy, and that one turn could have been better prevented if the null rod was online. true, flux will cause more problems, but that is one turn later, and by that time you could very likely be dead.

[Nameless]

I'd agree that Energy Flux in general isn't going to help you that much.  If you're having some problem matchups though then you might want to consider trying Legacy's Allure.  A pair of them sitting around a Fish deck can make for good times, since they can handle opposing man-lands, Welders, Angels, and even big fatties that Workshop might get out later in the game.  Nobody is packing Enchantment hate much these days, and your Curiosities will already be the primary target anyway, so it's likely to build up just about as big as you want it, and it's pretty good in the mirror, too.

While I realize this isn't exactly what you're trying to accomplish with a Flux, it does add another option for the deck, which is what it seems like you were getting at anyway.

On the other hand, I can sum up quickly what's already been said...  Fish is a metagame deck, and it's not going to be able to function against everything, if you want that play Keeper/4cC.  (And yes, I play KEEPER, because I play all 5 colors.   )

[TheIneffable]

I like the idea of Energy Flux, but doesn't it suffer from the same problem that you mentioned when talking about CotH in WTF/r? Playing it third turn, the best possible turn, means on turns 1-3 you cannot Daze and you cannot blow up lands. I don't know how this trade off works, but I will try Energy Flux and see how it goes as my meta has several Stax players.

Also if you start to replace the Rods with Fluxes, maybe Lotus might be considered?

[EvilSirMark]

many people don't seem to realize that you have another active thread talking about Urg fish splashing G for Oxidize and Quirion Dryad. (hint hint)

With that being said, I honestly had not considered Energy Flux until very recently as a good form of disruption, but could not seem to think of where to put it in the deck. Playing the combination Energy Flux/Null Rod seems like a good idea. However I don't know if dropping a Null Rod for one of the Fluxes is a good idea. Have you had a chance to test this any? If so I would very much be interested in the results.

[Jacob Orlove]

Energy Flux is really a SB card for Fish. Null Rod is just more versatile in the main.

[TheIneffable]

Energy Flux doesn't stop things such as Triskelion, which is the one of the major disadvantages IMO of trying to use Flux, you can still get your board cleared. I am seeing less Slavery in my area and more Stax, so Flux seems like maybe a viable MD card for me.

[johnstown713]

This past weekend at the Grand Prix: New Jersey my friend won so many matches against Workshop based decks due to Energy Flux.  The card was nuts and I know that i will be playing it but only as a sideboard card.  It just seems to unreliable for maindeck.

Johnstown713

[Zelyon]

I agree that getting to three mana with wastelands and daze is the toughest part with any fish deck. But fish can still certainly opt to delay wasting a land or dazing a spell one more turn if the card is going to have such an explosive impact on the game. My mainpoint in the other thread was that a 3/3 creature with no abilites is not such a card, but Energy Flux against any artifact based deck or even other powered decks that already have a couple of artifact mana sources in play is certainly worth it. If not, it can always be pitched to FoW.

The reason I'm suggest Energy Flux in place of a Null Rod and Gorilla Shaman is  that it serves a very similar purpose. It effectively negates ALL artifact mana sources and forces your opponent to sacrifice them. Cards like oxidize effectively deal with one and only artifact, whether a mana source or otherwise. This is why Null Rod is such an incredibly powerful card while cards like Oxidize while versatile don't have nearly as game altering an effect and don't win games by themselves usually. Energy Flux however does in a manner very similar to Null Rod. And it deals with a great many more artifacts than Null Rod does. Except for some very specific and somewhat rare situations (Triskelion, Mask etc), Energy Flux is almost always more disruptive and effective against a great many more threats than Null Rod. This as well as it's resistence to chalice for 2 may well make the card worth MDing.

[TheIneffable]

Yes a 'Nilla 3/3 is not as good, but letting them resolve something like CoW, or Welder, Smokestack, well you get my point, when you could Daze it. Not Dazing or not Wasting something such as Workshop can really be hurtful even, if it does mean getting a Flux on the board. And secondly, when the opposing deck runs its own strip effects, three mana is really hard, especially by turn 3. They can also stop you with things such as Smokestack or Tangle Wire, further delaying the casting of the 3 mana behemoth.

[Jacob Orlove]

The reason I'm suggest Energy Flux in place of a Null Rod and Gorilla Shaman is  that it serves a very similar purpose. It effectively negates ALL artifact mana sources and forces your opponent to sacrifice them.

This isn't quite true. Null Rod actually negates their artifacts; Energy Flux merely turns their moxes into Lotus Petals. Combo is going to laugh at Energy Flux, lay down all their artifact mana, and go off that turn. Flux doesn't stop key spells like Charbelcher or Triskelion, nor does it dhut down Metalworker. Plus, control decks can save their artifact mana until they can Cunning Wish for ReB and take Flux out.

Flux is a great SB card for workshop decks, since they pack so many artifacts, but against combo or control, Null Rod is better.

[TheIneffable]

Yes, Rod is strictly superior in Combo and Slaver matchups, but it is better versus Workshop prison and Workshop aggro. Against control I give the edge to Flux because most of the time they really don't want to pay 2 to keep their moxen around unless they need to filter into that color for some reason. Flux can also be pitched to FoW in this matchup. Rod is only better versus Black Lotus and Flux sometimes just turns their moxen into Lotus Petals. But I think that pitching to FoW is what gives Flux the edge in this matchup, but that is only if we are talking about MD'ing this card.

[wuaffiliate]

Against control I give the edge to Flux because most of the time they really don't want to pay 2 to keep their moxen around unless they need to filter into that color for some reason. Flux can also be pitched to FoW in this matchup. Rod is only better versus Black Lotus and Flux sometimes just turns their moxen into Lotus Petals. But I think that pitching to FoW is what gives Flux the edge in this matchup, but that is only if we are talking about MD'ing this card.

Flux is weak vs control, rod stops mana producting artifacts from being used alltogether for one less mana. There is no situation vs control where flux will be better. Pitching to fow is the weakest argument that you can give.

[Zelyon]

Like I already said, Null Rod is better against control because of the casting cost.

But Energy Flux is better due to the fact that control always has some low casting cost way to remove either Null Rod or Energy Flux whether maindeck artifact removal or a disenchant type effect.

Once Null Rod is removed, all the artifacts are reactivated while artifacts sacrificed to Energy Flux will never pose a problem again.

If you can daze a key spell that would wreck you and you don't have a FoW, you should, even if it means waiting a turn longer to play Energy Flux. If the spell isn't that critical or you can't stop it with a daze, then Energy Flux is better.

There is no question that Energy Flux is stronger against Workshop decks. And these decks are rapidly proving to be possibly the strongest archeatype in type one thanks in part to new threats like CoW and 3sphere and other all of which are immune to Null Rod. Workshop decks are in my belief also Fish's hardest matchup. 4c control and random aggro are more managable due in part to the splashed Dryad. And Flux isn't a bad card against 4c control. Fast combo doesn't seem to be too common in the North American meta partially due to the widespread use of 4c control and Fish.

As a result, I believe that 2 MD Energy Flux is a wise metagame choice.

[TheIneffable]

If you Daze a game breaking spell, well then you don't have a choice there, you have to. Where as you do have the choice between Flux and Rod. That extra mana can give them a free turn to cast some of the more mana intensive spells that Fish tries so hard to stop them from casting.

Daze has more syngergy with low cast cards such as Rod rather than something at 3 such as Flux.

[xrizzo]

There is no question that Energy Flux is stronger against Workshop decks. And these decks are rapidly proving to be possibly the strongest archeatype in type one thanks in part to new threats like CoW and 3sphere and other all of which are immune to Null Rod. Workshop decks are in my belief also Fish's hardest matchup. 4c control and random aggro are more managable due in part to the splashed Dryad. And Flux isn't a bad card against 4c control. Fast combo doesn't seem to be too common in the North American meta partially due to the widespread use of 4c control and Fish.

I completely agree with the above sentiment.

This thread is not soley about fish.  I have tested 2x Energy Flux in the SB of my 3-4c Control deck, and have found it very useful against workshop decks.   Energy Flux in true control (not aggro control) is not replacing null rod, rather it is a new card choice to deal with the extremely heavy presence of workshop decks.  My results are inconclusive for my metagame, but certainly if one plays in a workshop heavy metagame, Energy Flux is a solid SB card at worst.

[MisterShark]

I played Crushing Chamber last night vs. old school mono-U fish, and post-board, if he got Energy Flux out before I managed to get CotV on the board with 3 counters, I was owned.

Under the newly resolved Flux, I had some Workshops, a Mox and possibly an Ancient Tomb on the board:
- Couldn't use Workshops for Flux-imposed upkeep costs
- Moxs weren't worth keeping around and just turned into Lotus Petals
- Ancient Tomb stung like hell

In summary, it was either get out a 6cc CotV before Flux, or get rolled

[wuaffiliate]

As a result, I believe that 2 MD Energy Flux is a wise metagame choice.

I disagree. Rods are a better maindeck answer because they answer a WIDE variety of artifacts. Flux does not, it's only strong in the workshop matchup. That is not a good enough reason to weaken your maindeck vs combo and control. Have you ever dropped a Rod vs workshop.dec? It slows them down, which is what you want to do, it shuts down their creature removal, and gives you a large tempo advantage.

WORKSHOP.DEC IS NOT FISH'S HARDEST MATCHUP. IF YOU DO THINK SO YOU REALLY NEED TO DO SOME MORE TESTING BECAUSE YOU ARE A TERRIBLE FISH PLAYER.

I dont believe you understand how fish works. It's a tempo deck, this means that you get several small advantages that snowball into overwhelming the opponent though having a superior board advantage. Dryad does not flow with fish's gameplan because it causes you to overestend(and focus on one gameplan) to make a large dryad, the only way dryad is usefull is if it is large.

So that aside fish has many tools to deal with workshop.dec that are superior to flux. Artifact Mutation is THE BEST artifact removal tool in existance, i would much rather maindeck this than flux.

[Moxlotus]

I have not found a Workshop variant(other than TNT type decks) that is not favorable for fish.  Fish owns workshops of all kinds pretty hard.  If you cannot consistently beat Workshop decks with Fish you need to learn how to play the deck.

[TrixR4Kidz]

I have not found a Workshop variant(other than TNT type decks) that is not favorable for fish.  Fish owns workshops of all kinds pretty hard.  If you cannot consistently beat Workshop decks with Fish you need to learn how to play the deck.

Huh? this is NOT always true, fish has a hard time with big creatures, and workshop decks can still play fatties, even with nullrod on the board.  Sundering Titan alone should be enough to beat fish.

Fish does have a decent matchup against workshop decks, but it could go either way

[Moxlotus]

I have not found a Workshop variant(other than TNT type decks) that is not favorable for fish.  Fish owns workshops of all kinds pretty hard.  If you cannot consistently beat Workshop decks with Fish you need to learn how to play the deck.

Huh? this is NOT always true, fish has a hard time with big creatures, and workshop decks can still play fatties, even with nullrod on the board.  Sundering Titan alone should be enough to beat fish.

Fish does have a decent matchup against workshop decks, but it could go either way

And how do they get 8 mana to cast the Titan with no artifact mana?  How does their Welder not get pinged/forced/dazed?  And if it does get through the TFK allowing the titan into the grave should be countered or unable to cast due to wastes.   This is why I said TNT type decks still hurt-because fat still is hard to deal with.  I was referring to decks like the 4 or 5 different 7/10 decks running around.

[TrixR4Kidz]

Yea and how does fish deal with turn 1 trinispheres, and crucibles....there are always ways to deal with it, I play a version of 7/10 and it wrecks fish, it's not that hard of a matchup, and your underestimating the power of workshops, nullrod alone is not enough

[wuaffiliate]

You have obviously never played vs Ugr fish, titan.dec does not have a good match vs oxidize, artifact mutation, rack and ruin, gorilla shaman, grim lavamancer, fire/ice, null rod, naturalize, and crucible of worlds.

River Boa, tanks titan all day. All the removal also makes the match favourable for the Ugr fish player.

Either you are not telling the truth or you are just playing against terrible players. I play titan.dec also, and i know it's a tough match for me.

[Razvan]

Triskelion helps the fish match-up, but you need to be able to use it, thus eliminate Null Rod from the equation.

I firmly believe that the Titan's deck SB is very strongly geared to deal with Fish, as it is one of the harder matchups. I always have at least 3 Viashino Heretics, and while they aren't the alpha and the omega of the matchup, I am never hesitant to bring them in against Fish, and they never disappoint. I don't think the Fish matchup is that unwinnable, as the deck is fairly slow and totally unexplosive (but strong and consistent).

As for Flux... why give them more Red Elemental Blast targets, knowing full well they will be brought in regardless? Also, doesn't deal with Triskelion and the mana which makes Workshop explosive... overall, I think, a much weaker alternative.