Tinker and Iron Giant as Plan B

[Sawse]

Tinker for collosus
owns
fish

[bebe]

I've been watching this post with great interest. I will be playing a combo deck of sorts in my next tournament which is normally vulnerable to Null Rods but with innovations now does not fold to them. I am looking to beat Fish, FCG, Madness and 4cc control. I will probably lose to Workshop decks more often than not even post sideboard but every deck has a bad match up.  Adding Tinker - which has a number of targets in my deck - makes sense. I do not play Workshops so casting Colossus is not doable. I do side in Oaths though so Colosssus is not a wasted slot. You do need Brainstorms though if you rely on this strategy.

I like the idea of just winning the game - yes I need to be a lucksack - on turn three. I think playing the Colossus depends a lot on your expected metagame. I see it being used more in decks that are not Workshop based, btw.

I find the most interestying comment is " What do I replace in my combo deck to fit Colossus. " If there are not slots in your combo deck devoted to dodging hate do not play it. I use eight main deck counters as is and still like the extra slot for Colossus.

[TheIneffable]

If you run Colossus you can run either Brainstorm, which forces you to shuffle your deck which is quite easy to manage, or if you run enough artifacts, Thirst for Knowledge.

[goober]

Thanks to Phil I got new data.

91 Rack and Ruin
27 Naturalize
25 Swords to Plowshares
23 Rebuild
19 Energy Flux
18 Artifact Mutation
17 Hurkyl's Recall
15 Chain of Vapor
13 Disenchant
13 Viashino Heretic
11 Echoing Truth
8 Nevinyrral's Disk
7 Oxidize
7 Rushing River
5 Duplicant
5 Terminate
4 Goblin Vandal
2 Shattering Pulse
2 Tel-Jilad Justice
1 Deconstruct
1 Gilded Drake
1 Hull Breach
1 Orim's Thunder
1 Scavenger Folk
1 Uktabi Orangutan
1 Vindicate

Total Score
Colossus--196
Titan-------121

Figured I should be as up to date as possible.

Now as far as fitting DSC into combo, I think it is not that hard.  In my most recent Draw7 list I can see myself losing LED.  Often it will just leave you screwed over if they counter the Draw7.  You can't even wait to see if they will counter it.  Death Long ould lose 1 Elvish Spirit Guide or Helm of Awakening.  TPS has a lot more room for alterations, but I am not that up to date on it so I won't mention a specific card.

[Mixing Mike]

I've been out of internet access for the past few days, but I'd love to add something to this discussion.  Anyways, whenever I'm deck editing and thinking about new Tinker targets, I compare them to the other cards avaiable.....

-Sundering Titan can beatdown.  It also blows up lands your opponent may need to remove it.  Based on that theory, it can 'keep itself on the table'.

-Pentavus can give you tons of tokens, and has built-in Welder synergy.  Even if they RFG it, you still get a few token out of it.

-Platinum Angel buys you time time to win (or just wins if left unanswered).

-Razormane Masticore is very hardcastable and shoots stuff, clearing it's own path for beats.

-Memory Jar draws 7 cards, and has built-in Welder synergy.

-Duplicant removes annoying/fat critters.

The problem with Colossus is that it only comes out with Tinker.  Looking at the other options, how often would you actually (putting aside combo, it's actually quite good in combo) go for Colossus?

[Snoop]

I guess I don't understand why people are debating playing Sundering Titan in Combo (TPS, Draw7, DeathLong). Playing anything other than Darksteel Colossus seems dumb.  I mean Tinker for Darksteel is hot, but Sundering Titan is really only good against matchups which you should be winning with a storm count. The whole reason for Darksteel was maindeck combo hate (Trinisphere, Null Rod, Blood Moon). At Type 1 Worlds I played 1 SB (I noticed a lack of Fish), and it proved amazing for the matches when i brought it in. I hardcast it once for the win against Psychatog, and MatRix hardcast it turn one with TPS (ask Karl about that one).

I guess what it boils down to is Darksteel is what you go for when stuff hits the fan. Someone drops a Null Rod? Hit em with Darksteel. Besides do you really want a BLOCKABLE oof? I mean Titan is good, but if you're playing combo your goal is to win as fast as possible ... not to let your opponent chump block while they replenish there hand and continue to draw blockers with a curiositied cloud of fairies.

[wuaffiliate]

I guess I don't understand why people are debating playing Sundering Titan in Combo (TPS, Draw7, DeathLong). Playing anything other than Darksteel Colossus seems dumb.

Preach it brother. Can anyone give some good reasons to have a 7/10 that can be removed more easily than an 11/11 trampler than cannot?

[dromar]

Here's my take:

In combo, you need DSC cuz' you want to win with as little possibility of being disrupted as possible. It doesn't matter if you don't strip their lands, because, as a control deck, you should have already stopped them from threatening you.

In welder type decks on the other hand, Titan is usually the better choice, with a DSC being a POSSIBLE sideboard choice. In welder decks, the player has more options and things to abuse, and when they kill the titan, it just comes back (with the exception of StP, in which case another threat takes it's place). There was a discussion about this in another thread:

http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=18904&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

[TrixR4Kidz]

yes, I definately agree darksteel is a better plan B in combo, I was just argueing titan in workshop builds being better.  I don't really remember anyone argueing that titan was better in combo then colossus.

and by the way, colossus CAN be removed, he just can't be destroyed

[dromar]

and by the way, colossus CAN be removed, he just can't be destroyed

Well, yeah. Naturally, when it comes to StP, it doesn't matter which one you have (unless life gain is suddenly important).

I don't really remember anyone argueing that titan was better in combo then colossus.

Yeah. I was just giving out some general information I guess.

[Dante]

It is also far easier to get into pay with most Workshop based decks.

I think its assumed that combo should run Colossus if it runs something, I really think the major discussion should, is it worth that slot at all in combo?

If you feel it was worth the slot, I would like to know what it is replacing in your build of combo deck X, Y, or Z.

I made a card-by-card comparison of the last 4 storm decks to place top 8 in big tournaments in Europe (pre-gencon, seems there was a bunch at Eindoven) and it seemed that the cards that were cut for the Colossuss were either Chrome Mox or Time Spiral.

[TheIneffable]

I don't think anyone is debating whether DSC or 7/10 is better in combo, Tinkering for DSC means you want to win, now. DSC just performs this function superior to any other Tinker target.

@Dante: Thanks for the info. I never was a fan of Chrome Mox.

[BreathWeapon]

Ok, so lets recap and further define the argument here.

In Workshop Decks there is no reason to use Colossus over Titan as a Tinker Target.

In Combo Decks there is no reason to use Titan  over Colossus as a Tinker Target.

So,

Should Drain Slaver use Tinker->Colossus to strengthen its match vs Null Rod Aggro?

[dromar]

Should Drain Slaver use Tinker->Colossus to strengthen its match vs Null Rod Aggro?

I'd say that unless Null Rod Aggro isn't packing any artifact removal, DSC is a good call to help the matchup. In other words, if they have actual artifact removal (which Null Rod isn't), and I'm assuming they will have at least some, you don't want to run Titan as your "Plan B" and have it thwarted by some two cost spell.

(Edit: Forgot a paragraph (below))

As for opening up a slot for DSC, that's a tough one. I'd say it might end up being a metagame call. If you think you'll need "Plan B" often enough, then you shouldn't have any trouble making one slot if it's gonna be that big of a problem. But if you're thinking you'll need to rely on Plan B THAT much, shouldn't you play something different?

[Mixing Mike]

Should Drain Slaver use Tinker->Colossus to strengthen its match vs Null Rod Aggro?

Simply put, No.  I'll quote myself to tell you why I don't think it is...

The problem with Colossus is that it only comes out with Tinker.  Looking at the other options, how often would you actually go for Colossus?

[BreathWeapon]

That isn't an argument, it's simply a Truism Mike. I'm well aware that DSC will be a dead card at times. With 4 Brainstorm and 4 TFK I consider it a minor nuisance at best.

Can you think of a better solution after Null Rod resolves?

[Mixing Mike]

I think you misunderstood my post.  What I'm saying there is that not only does it only come out with Tinker, but also that it offers little utility to your team.  

The fact that it shuffles is an arguement.  Why?  How many decks (that are standard builds) have you actually seen the Colossus in that are winning the most games?  I can only think of The Man Show, and Workshop-Aggro decks.  The fact that it doesn't stay in the GY when pitched to Thirsts means that when you see it in your opening hand, you have effectively mulliganed to 6 right off the bat.  Not to mention you HAVE to put it away with a Brainstorm, with a shuffle effect.  And if you're playing Brainstorms, then it means you probably are running  without Workshops and Gilded Loti, in which case are the only cases you don't have to put it away and shuffle it in.  I'd be much happier to see a Pentavus in my opening hands than a Colossus, knowing that it at least has some use later on.

How I work under a Null Rod is to just ignore it and win with more card advantage.  Eventually, you'll find an answer to it, mostly becasue it doesn't shutdown Welder.  I counter moxen/crucibles quite often and weld it in for Null Rod.  I'm more afraid of Grim Lavamancers to be totally honest, only becasue they can kill my Welders whenever I play fish.

[TheIneffable]

In Drain Slaver you can Drain into a 7/10, Draining into DSC can be quite difficult. Although a 7/10 is still not that spectacular versus Null Rod Aggro unless they have very few creatures.