[Budget] Gay/RG for workshop/control meta

[Chaos Blade]

Well knowing that the Kalamazoo Metagame is changing to heavy Control/Workshops all around ive decided to play around abit. I've been thinking of changing from GayR to GayRG for the uses of Maindeck Oxidizes, River Boas and most important, SB ARTIFACT MUTATION.

4 River Boa
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Spiketail Hatchling
4 Cloud Of Faeries

4 Force Of Will
3 Daze
4 Standstill
4 Curiosity
3 Null Rod
2 Oxidize
1 Crucible of World

5 Fetch Deltas, Strands
3 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
2 Island
4 Mishra Factory

Now I do not run Call Of The Herd as there is otherthings I see which are more needed. I also use Daze, and the Standstill engine which I like better compared to the Brainstorm use in this deck. Yes I know Brainstorm does smooth out your manabase more. But I still will have to test which is better. I also run Crucible as a counter/Mirror winner. It develops my manabase which is horrid, and it also helps attack other manabases.

What do you think of WTFr In the current meta? Or Would GayR be better verus Workshop and heavy control. Thanks

[Jacob Orlove]

I split this off the main WTF discussion, because it's both budget and runs standstills. That's enough to merit a separate thread.

[Chaos Blade]

Ok Thanks sorry for posting it wrong.

[TheIneffable]

Basically adding green weakens your manabase to strip effects, so creating a continuous source of one color will be nearly impossible so don't rely on your mana base in the 4cc matchup. But, adding Mutation just breaks open the Workshop matchups in general to help you out a lot where UR fails.

[Chaos Blade]

So you are saying the deck will basically have bad matchups verus Control? Would you still recommend playing it in my enviroment?

[Jacob Orlove]

Actually, the control matchups are still pretty good. I think a lot of people are judging this deck's mana base without actually testing it, since it's actually more stable than it looks.

[theorigamist]

I've been testing a variant of WTFr and I've loved the mana base.  If you are really worried, though, then run a sixth fetch and Stifles.

[Chaos Blade]

Thats What I thought. With all the fetches, and my maindeck Islands the deck's manabase seems somewhat consistant. Also Crucible could help you develop it early to mid game.

[TheIneffable]

What I mean to say is that no it's not completely horrid, it's just worse than pure UR.

[Nijo]

I'm playing budgetized WTF/r as well but my list differs from yours:

1. im playing Elvish Spirit Guides instead of Cloud of Fairies to allow for more consistent turn 1 threats.

2. i opted for Dryads instead of River Boas because w/ Boas and Lavamancers you would need r&g all the time to keep em active which is nearly impossible with so many strip effects in todays metagame.

Without further ado i'll just post my decklist for inspiration:

3  Mishra's Factory
4  Wasteland
1  Strip Mine
4  Volcanic Island
3  Tropical Island
1  Island
3  Flooded Strand
2  Polluted Delta
1  Pendelhaven

4  Grim Lavamancer
4  Spiketail Hatchling
4  Quirion Dryad
3  Elvish Spirit Guide

2  Daze
4  Force of Will
4  Curiosity
4  Brainstorm
3  Null Rod
2  Fire/Ice
1  Stifle
1  Artifact Mutation
1  Mystical Tutor
1  Gush

// Sideboard
SB: 1  Null Rod
SB: 2  Fire/Ice
SB: 3  Artifact Mutation
SB: 2  Oxidize
SB: 2  Sword of Fire and Ice
SB: 1  Crucible of Worlds
SB: 3  Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1  Blue Elemental Blast

[BreathWeapon]

From almost all of the posts I've seen on TMD, U/rg Fish or "St. Louis Fish" is a horribly misunderstood deck.

Just ignore people who say "Your Manabase is Weak" or "This is inferior to Gay/r." Any one who simply blows this deck off with a one liner has not playtested with or against it 99.9% of the time.

That said,

I play this deck religiously in a heavy Workshop Metagame (Online ATM) and it will definatley hold its own vs Workshop Aggro, Workshop Prison and Workshop Aggro-Prison while retaining its strength vs Control.

Some general rules of thumb,

Boas>Dryads vs Workshops, always. They Top Deck much stronger, and that's incredibly important.

16 Creatures seems to be the magic number. With out Conclaves, you need to up your threat density. I see your already at 16, so good for you.

Atleast 3 Oxidize or 2 Oxidize and 1 Gorilla Shaman MD in a Shop Environment. You'll need as much MD Artifact Removal as you can muster.

Your Manabase needs the full compliment of Dual Lands. 3 Tropical is not enough with Crucibles running around. It is far too easy for an opponent to turn off an entire color with his LD. I highly doubt that your 2nd Island will ever make a significant difference, but I'm positive your 4th Trop will.

I'd highly suggest playtesting against Mono-U as soon as possible, Pre and Post Board. Back to Basics and Propaganda are serious obstacles to overcome, atm.

[Chaos Blade]

Thanks alot. Your definatly right on the 4th Trop. With a few games of testing ( Yes I know its very little) I was really lacking on a serious green source. If you have AIM please give me your sn for some more discussion. Also for the extra hate main deck what would you cut? Really the only thing I see is Crucible but it seems so good.

[BreathWeapon]

I'd start by cutting Dazes and Crucibles before anything else, they are by far the weakest links in your MD. People will mentaly play around Misdirection, Daze and Stifle, so Oxidize is definately the best choice for 2ndary disruption.

Crucible is hard for Fish to support, I find ramping up to 3 is difficult with all of the LD in the current environment. I'd suggest playtesting with it a lot, just to see if your comfortable with it MD.

You can PM for any questions, I don't have AIM at the moment, but I should probably set up an account.

[Ifflejink]

Part of the advantage of Daze is the fact that people will try to play around it. Besides that, it's not too strong of an inclusion. The tempo loss is substantial, and the increasingly abundant Workshop decks can easily afford 1 mana.

[Chaos Blade]

Yes I'll start testing extensively over MWS and appr now since school starts in 4 days and I won't be able to go out at night since of sports. I'll see what spots are the weakest and what needs to be improved. I think I might need 6 fetchs, but the basic Island is oh so powerful.

[mongrel12]

I've been playing WTFr/Gay/rg for a while and have come to several problems as well with deck design, principally--the need to run the standstill engine.

Frankly, I have found brainstorm to be simply ineffective in the fish deck as, in my mind, its use fundamentally violates the rule "there are no bad threats, only bad answers". Brainstorm seems to me as if it serves mainly as an incredibly effective card quality filter in control, and in some exceptional cases (ug madness, where it is used to set up a madness outlet on turn 2).

But can one really integrate the standstill card advantage engine into the deck, while maintaining the level of artifact hate that is required in the metagame?

[Chaos Blade]

Exactly what I've come up with. The only real solution I can say is to go through and test it. I really want to know is that if what is really better, GayR or GayRG. One of the things I do not like about the deck is that I can not run Misdirections, Stifles etc. But with Oxidizes main it might be worth it. I also want to come up with an conclusion for the Crucible. It just seems so good in the mirror which I'll face alot and other control decks. It will also help me develop my manabase to which could be crucial.

PS I really need to find a playtest partner for either MWS or Appr. Thanks