[Budget] The New Hotness

[MuzzonoAmi]

It's been awhile since I posted a new deck, so I figured I'd post a budget deck I've been tinkering with on and off for a few months to help those out who are sick of playing with 1/1 dorks.

Budget Control Madness

Manas
4 Forest
5 Island
4 Tropical Island
3 Fetch
3 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring

Mens
4 Arrogant Wurm
4 Basking Rootwalla
4 Wild Mongrel
3 Roar of the Wurm

Toss it in the Bin
4 Careful Study
2 Quiet Speculation

Cards that Draw More Cards
4 Brainstorm
3 Deep Analysis
2 Sylvan Library

Countermagic
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Leak

The Big Pile O' Answers
4 Energy Flux
3 Back to Basics
3 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Null Rod
2 Ray of Revelation
1 Deep Analysis

I'm just going to highlight a few of my less orthodox card choices here, to save time later when people start asking questions.

Mana Leak - This is the only turn 1 counter available to a budget deck that doesn't suck after turn 1. In this meta, it's actually quite good, especially against mana intensive decks like 7/10 Split, Meandeck Titan, and Control Slaver.

Quiet Speculation - This sets up some very powerful plays in this deck, and makes you MUCH more consistent. It's one of a few cards that lets you get away with the abnormally tiny manabase that this deck sports by thinning your library and giving you access to low cost card drawing and threats. Against Dragon and FCG, this card wins games by tutoring up Rays while leaving ample mana open to counter their setup and protection spells.

Sylvan Library - By including perment draw sources that provide free mini-Brainstorms every turn, Sylvan lets you keep the right mix of threats, mana, drwaing and countermagic in your hand while keeping excesses away and synergizing with shuffle effects.

No Strips - This deck is already running dangerously low on permanent mana sources. Though potent, the Strip effects cost a land drop and often do not make up for it in the tempo your opponent has lost.

[Tobi]

With Sylvan Library and Brainstorms you should run more Fetchlands. I think 3 is not enough.

I like the idea of Quiet Speculation, as the flashback cards have been almost always the target for the Intuitions, that are normally used in these builds.

Not using Strips is a mistake IMO. Not disturbing an opponent in his mana development will lead to game loss. You are too slow in beating down, so all you need to do is buy time: Strips, Null Rod, Counter.

I miss Wonder, why don't you use it?

And please, change the topic of your posting to something that descibes your deck type.

[MuzzonoAmi]

There simply isn't room for more fetchlands and Strips. Before I added Elvish Spirit Guides, I had Strips, but after testing the Guides in that slot I've found that they're simply too good to cut for the Strips. Fetchlands lower my permanent Mana count too much. At most, I'll cut an Island for one more, but even that is a risk I'm very hesitant to take - especially with Back to Basics coming in from the board in so many games.  

Wonder could have been added, but I'd rather be smashing face with fat critters than worrying about if they're flying or not. I may SB it for matches where I expect huge fatties to be in my way (possibly over the DA and a Back to Basics if the meta looks Workshop heavy, control light) alot, but under normal circumstances I don't have a reason to run Wonder.

As for the topic title, I like it. If anyone is truly looking for an idea, they'll read it.

[theorigamist]

With 4 BS and 2 Sylvans, I agree this deck needs at least 1 more fetch.  (I would use 3/4 blue fetch and 1 green one.)  I also think you need some maindeck hate (Null Rod leaps to mind).  I would drop the artifact mana for the extra fetch and the last Elvish Spirit Guide.  Then your Null Rods don't hurt you, you still have mana acceleration, and you have another shuffle effect.

You could also pull a WTF(r) and play maindeck Oxidizes.

[j]

The added card disadvantage engine (careful study + spirit guide) probably works better without the amoebas but it sure makes mongrels weaker.

I don't like the manabase either. Unlike the more "orthodox" lists you eventually need 4 mana and being vulnerable to nullrods, oxidizes and wastelands (crucible) isn't going to help. Why don't you cut the artifacts and run 6 fetches and one less tropical. Works well since you'll fetch basics 90% of the time anyway, right?

[theorigamist]

The added card disadvantage engine (careful study + spirit guide) probably works better without the amoebas but it sure makes mongrels weaker.

Careful Study is not card disadvantage if you're tossing any of the 8 madness creatures or the 6 flashback spells (and tossing Deep Anals will lead to card advantage, not disadvantage).  Also, with 6+ Brainstorms and Quiet Speculation for Deep Analysis, I don't think (read: I haven't tested, but would guess) that it doesn't get too low on cards.

That said, having played Fish and variants and seen the card drawing house that is Curiosity, I would love to see that in this deck.  However, with no evasion to speak of, it would be fairly weak.  That means run either Wonder (still runs into Platinum Angel, Pentavus, Morphling, Exalted Angel, etc.) or River Boas (which are wicked hot right now).

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

I think that the deck is simply too mana intensive to run properly.  Arrogant wurms require an outlet and then cost 3 and the roars require an outlet and cost 4 to flashback... also your only disruption in 4 mana leak and 4 fow and you usually won't be able to cast something with leak backup...  The only permenant outlet you have is the mongrel and the specualtions and studies are one shot as well as also being mana intensive.  I see the deck as being too slow to kill and not disruptive enough.  (the addition of rods and strips could help to fix this.  The deck is budget and only running crypt+ring means your opponent will be abusing acceleration much more than you not to mention things like slaver, jar, etc.)

That said, I do like the indea of slyvan library which combined with 4 brainstorms and 3 deeps seems to give the deck sold draw, and upping the fetch count would make this even better.

[AggressiveDude]

How about playing Daze instead of Mana Leak?It helps you protecting your madness outlets and your worms.


Ps:Daze is also usefull in Lategame.

[sa17dk]

How about playing Daze instead of Mana Leak? It helps you protecting your madness outlets and your worms.


Ps:Daze is also usefull in Lategame.

I'm not too sure if going with Daze would be the best choice, especially because he runs so few mana sources, and like the others said, the deck is extremely mana intensive.

Saying Daze is good in the lategame is sort of an oxymoron, and makes no sense since by the lategame he should have more mana open to cast Mana Leak, not to mention a +1 counter isn't really going to help after the first few turns.

[Matt]

Are Sylvans really any good? Also, Wonder was one of the best cards in older builds of U/G, I'm surprised you don't run it.

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

I think yes, slyvans really ARE that good.  The question is whether or not they belong in the deck .  I like them alot, however, and with a greater number of fetches they would become even better.

I think wonder was more importent when attacking with fragile 3/1 aquamoeba's, but maybe not so much with 6/6 wurms.  Then again, wonder's evasion can make it much easier to race your opponent.

[MuzzonoAmi]

While I haven't tested Wonder yet, I tested the additional fetch over an Island and thought it was good enough to keep. The Sylvans are very good at mana smoothing and in the 4cC matchup, but aganist Fish and Monoblue they aren't quite as strong. For the Pittsburgh tourney, I tested 2 Werebear in that slot because I expeted alot of Fish and Monoblue because of their relatively simple nature, especially given 10 proxies. I was lucky in this regard - I played 3 monoblue and 1 Fish and the Werebears were simply great. The problem is that they are only mediocre against alot of other decks.

The manabase is tight, but it's not so tight that I have trouble casting spells. There are times when I want to cut a Forest for the 4th Spirit Guide, but in testing this has proven unwise because of the already low permanent mana count.

Gandalf is right about Wonder. The only time I really want it is against 4cC when they get an Angel on the table, but when I'd be in a position to deal with the Angel by blocking it, I can simply outrace it with the Roar Token (barring double-blocks).

[theorigamist]

I know this deck probably doesn't need much better of a game against fish and variants, but how about some Call of the Herd?  I know at least some fish builds have Unsummon in the sideboard, which will ruin your day with Roar tokens.  I'd rather get some card advantage with Call tokens, force them to use their removal, and then bring in the 6/6 to seal the deal.  So, maybe in the sideboard?

[MuzzonoAmi]

I've actually considered that, and with someone else suggesting it, there's no reason I can see not to try it. I'll get back to you on how they work or you can test them yourself, too.

[Phantomz]

I've been playing U/g madness for quite some time and your list is pretty unique.

I think you should have at least 4 fetchlands as everyone already stated since they are sweet with Brainstorms as you already know. I never tried Sylvan Library so I can't really say if it fits or not. I also don't see any Aquamoeba's either since you really want to accelerate into the Roar.

Daze might be an alternative if you need that early vital counter. Even with your low mana base I suggest you try it out as you really need your Roar's on the table as soon as possible to start bashing your opponent.

I'm also curious to see what the good/bad matchups of this deck is.

[theorigamist]

I don't think Daze would work well.  It costs a lot of tempo that this deck can't afford as easily as fish.  

Considering the Quiet Speculations and Careful Studies, how hard do you think threshold would be?  Nimble Mongoose seems like a very good metagame choice.  It avoids Fish's Lavamancers, Fire/Ice, and Firewalkers if they've got them; it avoids 4CC's Fire/Ice and StoPs; etc.

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

I don't like daze in this build because as I said, it is slow, and daze is almost useless lategame.  I really think logic > mana leak.  It is almost always a hard counter with the stuff you dump into the yard, and although the only outlet you have for it is mongrel hardcasting it isn't that different from casting leak anyways.  Did you try testing the logics?

[MIZEnhauer]

i would think about intuition over quiet speculation, even though it costs one more mana it can get wonders and other things besides roars and deep anals

[MuzzonoAmi]

i would think about intuition over quiet speculation, even though it costs one more mana it can get wonders and other things besides roars and deep anals

There's nothing to cast Intuition for OTHER than Deep Anal and Roar. Intuition is strictly inferior to Quiet Spec in this deck.

As for Mongoose - I had completely forgotten about him when I added Werebear. Threshhold is VERY easy to get in this deck so the Bears have been awesome sauce. I think I'll be testing the Mongoose in that slot now because another turn 1 threat is great.

[Matt]

The reason to play Intuition over Speculation is Wonder.

[MuzzonoAmi]

Right, but from testing, Wonder has only been good against decks with big ground pounders like 7/10 which are a bad matchup that Wonder doesn't improve. Wonder costs a slot that is, from my testing, better suited to another threat.

[TylerEss]

Perhaps I'm giving away my total lack of experience with Madness, but is there a reason not to run your allotted one copy of Frantic Search? It's just the same as Careful Study. Sure, it doesn't get cast until turn two instead of turn one, but it's the MAD TAMPO once it resolves.

Which is better, casting early without the TAMPO or casting a bit later with the TAMPO?

[theorigamist]

If you're waiting a turn to cast it so that you can gain a turn's worth of tempo, then what's the point?  I'd rather have the 1CC card, especially since if the Search is countered, you don't untap.

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

Who the hell counters a search?  Anyways it sucks because it's so slow.  (also note you can't cast aggogant wurms discarded with the search which is THE SUCK (Edit: assuming you don't have 6 mana))

Intuiton can be cast at eot co you can keep mana open for leak.  It can also be used as a tutor to find fow if you need it.  That said, I think specualtion is better because it costs 1 less.  (and remember I also don't like leak)

[kirdape3]

Wonder allows you to race those enormous man decks.  You can easily get up to 7 damage, especially if you're running Roar.  I bet money that you'll win a lot of games against someone who just got Titan by pitching Wonder the next turn and all-inning them right then and there.

[theorigamist]

Who the hell counters a search?

If it means a huge tempo swing, and if you have even a decent play on your turn, you would counter Frantic Search.  For example, every fish variant would want to counter that Search, take away the rest of the turn, and then drop some tempo cards and a Standstill.  If the Search and then a creature resolves against fish, that's probably game.  If the Search is stopped and followed up, then the fish player probably wins.

[Matt]

Who the hell counters a search?  Anyways it sucks because it's so slow.  (also note you can't cast aggogant wurms discarded with the search which is THE SUCK (Edit: assuming you don't have 6 mana))

Intuiton can be cast at eot co you can keep mana open for leak.  It can also be used as a tutor to find fow if you need it.  That said, I think specualtion is better because it costs 1 less.  (and remember I also don't like leak)

That's not true. You can cast Wurms off a Frantic Search. You discard them, they get RFG by madness, then you finish resolving FS (including the untap).

[MuzzonoAmi]

I'll test Search, Intuition, and Wonder after I test the Mongease and see which I like better. While there are good points to both, I'm still not sure how much better the ArtiFAT matchup would get even with the ability to bum rush unmolested.

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

Who the hell counters a search?  Anyways it sucks because it's so slow.  (also note you can't cast aggogant wurms discarded with the search which is THE SUCK (Edit: assuming you don't have 6 mana))

Intuiton can be cast at eot co you can keep mana open for leak.  It can also be used as a tutor to find fow if you need it.  That said, I think specualtion is better because it costs 1 less.  (and remember I also don't like leak)

That's not true. You can cast Wurms off a Frantic Search. You discard them, they get RFG by madness, then you finish resolving FS (including the untap).

Well, if you can play madness off it with the untapped land it is considerably better, but it is still slow compared to study and serves a slightlig different purpose (with study you are usually dumping flashback things to be used later, whereas with search you sually want to cast madness/flashbacl things right away)

[doomhed]

I cannot see any build of U/G being competitve without 5 strips or maindeck null rods. these are what makes u/g so successfull. Also, roars are too slow, they are impossible to hardcast, and are useless without a madness outlet. I also have tested careful study, and it is not as good as it was in type 2. and seriously, you need aquaboeba. why not look @ my T8 decklist from Newington?